Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #6macros, 2015-10-08

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Time Nick Message
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10:04 Ven http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-society/hyper-polyglot-greek-translator-speaks-32-languages/ioannis-ikonomou-eu-commission-languages-translation/c3s17017/
10:04 Ven that's a bit insane, huh.
10:07 masak I know a guy who is at least partway towards that.
10:08 masak I felt a little bit better when he confessed he hadn't gotten very far with Mandarin, 'cus it was too different from the PIE-based languages he was used to :)
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13:43 * Ven noticed ↑'s monadic version doesn't work in GNU APL :(
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19:02 vendethiel oh masak
19:02 vendethiel btw
19:03 vendethiel for "dep types"
19:03 vendethiel types need to stop being "an optimization" ;-)
19:04 masak please elaborate
19:04 masak I *think* I see what you mean, but...
19:04 vendethiel disable the optimizer
19:04 vendethiel they're not ran anymore, AFAIK
19:04 masak aaaah
19:04 masak right, now it's all mixed together
19:04 vendethiel and the synopsis don't actually mandate that they're checked too, right?
19:04 masak inextricably
19:04 masak I think the synopses require that they be checked
19:05 vendethiel do they?
19:05 masak yes, I think so
19:05 vendethiel at least
19:05 vendethiel the fact that they get *statically* checked is definitely optional.
19:05 masak basically, if you opt in and use them... they're checked
19:05 vendethiel corrected myself
19:05 masak ok
19:05 masak yes
19:05 vendethiel also
19:06 vendethiel I'd looove to get some static OO thing. I guess there's still "final", though
19:15 masak I'm doing a lot of useful thinking right now in 007. I guess you can tell by the notification fallout :)
19:19 vendethiel you think we should mix syntax and visitor macros?
19:19 vendethiel how far are you along in 50 years of lisp? :-)
19:20 masak not far enough
19:20 masak is there something I should pay immediate attention to?
19:20 vendethiel because "visitor macros inside of a syntax macro" is basically macrolet
19:21 masak in this case, I'd make syntax macros for `amb` and `assert`, and a visitor macro for Q::Statement::Block
19:21 vendethiel well ok, say
19:21 vendethiel transaction macro
19:21 masak so it'd actually be "syntax macro(s) inside of a visitor macro"
19:21 vendethiel you want "commit" and "rollback" only to be "macros" inside of this block
19:21 masak right, ok.
19:22 masak yes, that's still an open question for me.
19:22 vendethiel we talked about this many times
19:22 masak aye
19:22 masak during YAPC::Europe, I toyed with the idea of "the macros you define *inside* of a syntax macro are valid inside the thing it parses"
19:23 masak but it feels slightly too magical, even if it'd be easy-to-use
19:23 vendethiel yeaaah
19:23 vendethiel well
19:23 vendethiel again, macrolet could make more sense
19:23 masak ok, I have some reading to do, then
19:23 masak in general, I'm very pleased with how the three-types-of-macro gist came together.
19:24 masak but I'm still willing to be impressed and inspired by Let Over Lambda
19:24 vendethiel sometimes, perl6 tries to cram a few too many things in one place...
19:24 vendethiel like :36(..). why'd you need to overload :() "again"...
19:24 masak :)
19:25 vendethiel that's what gives it this "line noise" name, methinks
19:25 vendethiel say, http://rosettacode.org/wiki/IBAN#Perl_6 that I was reading with a friend
19:25 * masak looks
19:25 vendethiel it's pretty readable, if you know "leading dot is $_." and regexps
19:25 vendethiel (which isn't too much to ask)
19:25 vendethiel but :36(~$_) is... heh..
19:26 masak I guess you'd prefer to have it as a simple function?
19:26 vendethiel *too cute*
19:26 vendethiel yeah. $_.base(36)
19:26 vendethiel amazing
19:26 masak nonono
19:26 vendethiel doesn't even need to convert anything to a string to then base it
19:27 masak you're making the classical mistake with these base converters
19:27 masak wrong direction :)
19:27 vendethiel yeah, well
19:27 masak :36(~$_) is converting *from* base 36
19:27 vendethiel see
19:27 vendethiel that's the big issue
19:27 masak $_.base(36) already exists and converts *to* base 36
19:27 masak this was the big thing that the :35(~$_) syntax basically solved
19:27 vendethiel well
19:28 vendethiel $_.as-base(36)
19:28 masak and if you don't appreciate that, I'm not sure I can respect any solution that you propose ;)
19:28 vendethiel amazing.
19:28 vendethiel no, I don't
19:28 masak you still don't get it, I see
19:28 vendethiel I especially don't like that converting *to* a base is a method, but *from* isn't
19:28 masak meh
19:28 masak that actually helps, in my opinion
19:29 vendethiel and how is converting "from" a base something as common that it'd require that kind of huffmanization?
19:29 vendethiel if I don't get it, please explain
19:29 masak some bases are more common than others
19:29 masak :2, :8, :16, specifically
19:30 vendethiel but converting between bases isn't really common
19:30 vendethiel I know I havn't done it in several *years
19:30 vendethiel *
19:30 masak the problem with Perl 5's bin(), oct(), hex() was that people could never remember if they were *from* or *to* functions
19:30 vendethiel just add to- or from- function.
19:30 masak I would say that from a language design perspective, it's really not as simple as that
19:30 vendethiel I'm not saying all languages "fixed" that. ruby's Integer.to_s(base) is also ugh
19:31 masak and that's what this whole :36() thing is about, in the end
19:31 vendethiel maybe I just never stumbled in fields that needed this kind of "power" :)
19:31 vendethiel I disagree *strongly* with you
19:31 vendethiel because I can't remember the way it's going with :36() either
19:33 masak though it's not essential to my main point, I'll note that I have no such problem remembering what direction :36() goes
19:33 masak to me it pretty clearly reads as "what comes here is in base 36 (and hence, it's a string)"
19:34 vendethiel well, you can't justify "it's easy to remember" with "I remember it" :P
19:34 masak which is why I didn't add it as support for my main point ;)
19:34 vendethiel fair enough
19:35 masak by the way, http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/courses/15317-f09/schedule.html is pretty great
19:35 masak I'm on 04*.pdf now
19:35 vendethiel I'm probably never going to find time for that
19:36 masak ok, I will endeavour to send less of these :)
19:37 vendethiel :(
19:37 vendethiel they're a bit too big
19:37 vendethiel I have many of 'em piled up...
19:37 masak fwiw, you're not the only one struggling to find time for reading nice things... :)
19:37 vendethiel *g*
19:38 vendethiel I appreciate every other link though
19:38 * masak .oO( so, about 50% of them ) :P
19:39 masak http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/every+other
19:39 masak English is weird.
19:39 vendethiel I know, I know
19:39 vendethiel that's somewhat what I meant, too
19:39 masak ok
19:39 vendethiel well, not the 50% part, but the "it's a long list of youtube videos of 4 hrs
19:39 vendethiel " or tens of PDFs
19:40 vendethiel usually PDFs are fine though
19:40 vendethiel it's mostly "class videos"
19:40 vendethiel I really can't
19:40 masak well, so far, http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/courses/15317-f09/lectures/02-natded.pdf has been the best one
19:40 vendethiel I already have a playlist with ~100 programming-related videos :/
19:40 masak so if you have time to read one, choose that one
19:41 vendethiel thanks!
19:41 masak it's 12 pages of easily-digestible material
19:41 masak also might be good to know that I was recommended this course by that list of links that you sent me on type theory
19:42 vendethiel ...I admit I havn't gotten around to that link yet
19:42 masak ;)
19:42 vendethiel but since GNU APL isn't that feature-complete, I guess I'll go back to something else
19:42 vendethiel maybe Ada.
19:42 vendethiel (I do have a dyalog APL license, but it doesn't seem to be usable for "scripts")
19:44 vendethiel then I'll go back to functional shenanigans
19:44 vendethiel and I have a very big backlog
19:45 masak relax. you're young. you've got plenty of time.
19:45 masak just focus on things you enjoy. :)
19:45 vendethiel do I look like I don't thoroughly enjoy myself? :-)
19:45 vendethiel .oO( don't try to make me slow down so that other younglings can catch up! *g* )
19:46 masak :P
19:47 * masak attempts to introduce Q::Compunit in 007
19:47 vendethiel yay!
19:47 vendethiel I might take a stab at object literals
19:48 vendethiel (famous last words...)
19:48 masak cool
19:48 masak patches welcome
19:58 vendethiel ..famous first words :)
20:01 masak I'd be honored to get a patch on that
20:01 masak expect some comments, though
20:01 masak even if I accept it, I might have some suggestions
20:31 vendethiel oh, a Martin-Löf quote :-)
20:33 masak yeah, he seems to be mentioned a lot in dep-typed contexts
20:33 vendethiel I wonder why.. *g*
20:33 masak can't think of a good reason :P
20:34 vendethiel soo many references though...
20:34 vendethiel sigh. my backlog is too big :(
20:34 masak I skimmed the references, and I don't even feel bad about it
20:37 vendethiel I never check them
20:37 masak well, that's all right then
20:45 vendethiel huh,I just realized that in some alternative perluniverse, maybe Perl6 got abandoned along the way
20:45 vendethiel "the jnthn never came" or something
20:46 masak aye
20:46 masak quite likely, actually
20:46 vendethiel yeah. bus factor of one isn't that high :-)
20:46 vendethiel even if it's almost 2 *g*
20:47 masak it is?
20:47 vendethiel considering the tons of amazing work larry, nine, timo, liz and froggs have been putting out, I'd certainly consider it so
20:47 vendethiel no, it's definitely higher than 2 no
20:47 vendethiel now*
20:47 masak yeah
20:48 masak though jnthn is still pretty indispensible in various ways
20:48 vendethiel definitely.
20:48 vendethiel also, brrt++ :-)
20:49 masak aye

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