Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #crimsonfu, 2013-05-08

crimsonfu - sysadmins who code

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Time Nick Message
01:30 melodie joined #crimsonfu
01:30 melodie joined #crimsonfu
01:31 melodie hello
01:33 pdurbin_m melodie: hi
01:35 melodie hi pdurbin_m !
01:36 pdurbin_m my three year old won't sleep again
01:36 pdurbin_m on the plus side, she keeps getting out of bed to give me hugs
01:37 melodie lol
01:44 ben_e my 3 year won't sleep either
01:45 melodie pdurbin_m the link from slystone says they want to setup a centralised place to get the info from ISP, phone wiretapping and so on... and planned it to be more economic than the actual method where they gather physical files. but instead of spending 17 Million euros, they are now about to spend 43 million euros. And they asked one company only, so several other companies (5) want to trial the State. Then, to end with the company who got the
01:45 melodie contract might also be under surveillance next, and have to keep the files about themselves in their own repos. XD XD XD
01:45 melodie http://www.pcinpact.com/news/79609-​des-septembre-telephone-et-internet​-entre-grandes-oreilles-thales.htm
01:46 melodie they also point to the website of some activists well known, who have spread a "very confidential" file related to the global project: http://owni.fr/2012/09/13/​secret-ecoutes-pnij-thales - and they continue spreading the document
01:47 pdurbin_m right. saw him mention it at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/linuxvillage/2013-05-07
01:48 melodie PNIJ would stand in English for something such as "National Legal Investigation Platform"
01:49 melodie pdurbin_m yes but slystone just explained it this way "basically what it say is that we can be spied upon provided a judge agrees"
01:50 melodie this is a bit besides the reality. judges already have to give their consent for such investigations, but now they need a place to gather it all in a way which has not been done yet. And the people who write the articles want to show the most ridiculous parts of the project.
01:52 pdurbin_m global project. hmm
01:54 ben_e success
01:55 pdurbin_m ben_e: jealous
01:56 ben_e anyone using ansible? it seems the edX guys are migrating from puppet to ansible for configuration management
01:56 ben_e heh
01:56 ben_e he spent the last 20 minutes telling me he was sad that his imaginary friend was sick
01:56 ben_e "me sad. me friend sick."
01:59 pdurbin_m yesterday I caught her rubbing an entire bottle of lotion on her belly and saying, "my skin feeled bone dry"
01:59 pdurbin_m finally she's still. phew
02:00 pdurbin_m yeah, vagrant supports ansible now
02:00 ben_e right, i saw that on the list
02:01 pdurbin_m larsks: still using ansible?
02:01 ben_e mitx, harvardx and edx are all hiring devops/sysadmin types right now
02:02 ben_e i wonder if edx is fully its own thing or if it's piggybacking on one of the schools
02:12 melodie hi ben_e
02:15 ben_e hey
02:20 melodie good night
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11:50 pdurbin dotplus: I had no idea the creator of RT is making keyboards these days: ep9: Making your own keyboard (Jesse Vincent) - Tatsuhiko Miyagawa's Podcast - http://podcast.bulknews.net/post/499152​62884/ep9-making-keyboard-jesse-vincent
11:55 melodie hi
11:57 pdurbin hi
12:05 melodie pdurbin from your link I found this one: http://fr.slideshare.net/obra​jesse/2013-osdcmadeakeyboard
12:06 melodie we just looked at the slides (my companion just finished one year of electronic design and programming course)
12:21 pdurbin cool. interesting show. I've never thought much about keyboards :)
12:24 melodie :)
12:51 melodie pdurbin I have done an enquiry about programs meant to manage internet cafes in the world of Free software
13:07 pdurbin ok
13:12 ben_e git-annex does look pretty cool
13:13 ben_e mischan
13:14 melodie pdurbin all the programs meant for this use are old, and not usable. I tried the one which looked more promising than others, and it fails to run:
13:14 melodie https://sourceforge.net/p/mkahawa/​discussion/955736/thread/c69fe267/
13:15 melodie Internet Cafes around the world are run mostly under Windows and use closed programs for their management. But when typing "Internet Cafe under Linux" in google, it brings  6 220 000 results!
13:16 melodie and this one guy has tested mostly the same ones as I have: http://xubuntucorner.blogspot.fr/2011/06/​some-cafe-operators-yet-use-cafe-con.html
13:16 melodie and found that none is ready for production
13:17 dotplus pdurbin: neither did I. I did know that Jesse is no longer closely involved with bestpractical day-to-day. He hasn't been for quite some time.
13:18 melodie I would like this to be known. perhaps some people would be interested to take care of such a program. Mkahawa being it seems, the most advanced one for the time being, even if it does not work on the latest deb distributions.
13:19 dotplus also, miyagawa++ but audio is, IMO, a poor primary distribution medium for information. reading++
13:25 dotplus melodie: in your usage of the terms "Internet Cafe" and "programs meant to manage internet cafes", what kinds of functionality should the software do? What should be managed?
13:26 melodie dotplus I can find a list somewhere on the web to show you
13:26 melodie here is one: http://mkahawa.sourceforge.net/features.php
13:26 melodie I'll try to fetch another one from a close source program widely used
13:26 dotplus forgive me for being an ignorant, privileged westerner but I have never(?) been to an internet cafe; ever since I've been aware of the internet and actually even before, I've had access
13:27 melodie dotplus no problem
13:27 melodie here is one from a well known program widely used under windows through the world:
13:27 melodie http://www.smartlaunch.com/
13:28 dotplus basically, the point is to provide access to the internet (or just the www?) for a fee on a (time?) metered basis? so basically the issues are billing/account management and security/malware protection?
13:29 melodie and also have some parts which allow being "covered" in regard of laws and regulations
13:30 dotplus you mean content/destination filtering?
13:31 melodie dotplus depending on the countries, there is this and also the obligation to keep the logs during some time. the laws in France can't be applied because made in a way that it is just not technically possible to be done, but at least the logs must be kept during one year, even if it can't be of any use.
13:35 dotplus ah yes. and that probably hits on a major reason why there are no/few people interested in developing such software on a FOSS basis. because there's such a strong overlap between who think that content-filtering/logging for the Authorities is Evil.
13:38 melodie dotplus it is evil but having a foss software which we know what it does is better than having a closed software. and the devs can implement the needed parts in a way such that it would be harmless for the good users
13:39 melodie anyhow it's not possible to link a user and the logs
13:41 melodie an internet cafe can have dozens of people just paying for a connexion once a while and never needing to leave names or any id that can make them identify
13:42 melodie on the other side, the filtering is necessary, so that the young users won't be able to reach websites related to adult or illegal contents
13:44 dotplus but surely the cafe owner/administrator can link the logs to the person paying?
13:44 melodie I don't think so :)
13:45 ben_e the other reason that there are no linux packages is that it's basically an integration/sysadmin problem
13:45 melodie suppose the police comes to your place, because they need to find out something related to a case which happened several weeks or months ago
13:45 ben_e captive portal+transparent squid cache+$random_account_management_system
13:46 ben_e it's like 200 lines of perl :-)
13:46 melodie suppose you have very many different persons who came just once or twice and not anymore or you see them once a while but have never known their names. they come, login with a machine or another : the logs will just retain date, hour, ip, mac adress : so what ?
13:47 melodie ben_e there are packages, just they have not been updated, the code is too old and needs to be fixed
13:47 melodie see here:
13:47 melodie https://sourceforge.net/p/mkahawa/​discussion/955736/thread/c69fe267/
13:47 ben_e i saw the scrollback
13:48 melodie this is a full feedback I did just a moment ago after I have tested on two different installs of Ubuntu
13:48 ben_e 10 seconds of perusal tells me that's a gtk app
13:48 dotplus ben_e: perhaps but if so that just means that the solution might look a little different: a VM image or a puppet manifest/chef recipe/whatever
13:48 ben_e which is not the way i'd implement this
13:49 melodie dotplus then suppose there is one guy who does harmful things throught the web, or is an activist, or anything : he certainly won't pay with a credit card or a bank formula.
13:49 ben_e in the US ISPs have common carrier status
13:49 ben_e although i'm not sure if that applies to retail internet providers
13:51 dotplus melodie: I guess I was sort of assuming that the kinds of law enforcement that would require logs would also require that cafe owners make those logs usable by retaining records of names/login times. Perhaps it doesn't work that way in practice
13:53 melodie dotplus I read they tried in China, and tried to force the owners of such places to buy a program which costs between 2000 to 6000 euros. (or dollars?) : result, they all canceled their connexions !
13:54 melodie in countries supposed to be "democratic", and at least in France the ones who makes the laws have no idea of how that is technically manageable, so they give the job to do to the ones who have the biggest mouth (and money) and it all comes out as "just organise a turn around and you are good"
13:55 melodie if the law says "you must keep the logs" then have a setup which allows doing so, and the law can't condemn you
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13:56 dotplus a rather different mindset.
13:56 pdurbin dotplus: jesse said he was taking a year off... to build keyboards as it turned out :)
14:07 melodie dotplus the mind is set very fast when you see the type of punishments for breaking the laws : so no matter what, the program which allows opening "a large umbrealla" is the right one! :D
14:08 melodie ideally I would myself put a hidden cron to send all logs to /dev/null, but this might not be the right setup. ^^
14:09 melodie on the other hand, having read that the memory devices can keep the content of the session for a while after shutdown, I would rather use recent ones, DDR3 which are faster erased after reboot or shutdown...
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14:25 ben_e melodie: that's spy novel stuff
14:25 ben_e the police are not so subtle
14:25 ben_e if they want some data you have, they'll just break in and install loggers on all your equipment
14:27 semiosis google cold boot attack
14:27 crimsonfubot` http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_boot_attack
14:27 ben_e i'm familiar with it
14:28 semiosis keyboard duster
14:28 ben_e i'm not saying it doesn't exist
14:28 ben_e i'm saying that there are cheaper/more effective/more practical solutions to that particular problem
14:38 melodie and DPI ?
14:39 pdurbin semiosis: hmm. "agoddard created repository hubot-scripts 35 minutes ago" -- https://github.com/EOL/hubot-scripts
14:46 semiosis pdurbin: cool, if he can contribute some useful features to hubot, everybody wins
14:46 semiosis ;)
14:47 semiosis i asked one of the githubbers during their presentation at monitorama about sharing some of their scripts
14:48 semiosis he said no because they're either not clean code or too specific
14:48 semiosis people started shouting "we dont care" "so what" etc
14:48 semiosis i was like, yeah
14:48 * semiosis is not impressed with hubot
14:49 semiosis or how the github team talks the talk but wont walk the walk
15:11 pdurbin argh!!!! Perl Regex Removed From Grep in Mountain Lion - dirt - http://www.dirtdon.com/?p=1452
15:11 pdurbin oh, brain fart. use ack, use ack. it's all ok
15:12 Whoop Peoeple keep telling me this but ack is an order of a magnitude slower :(
15:18 ironcamel ack has always been really fast for me. i use it daily.
15:19 ironcamel http://codeseekah.com/2012/03/11/ack-grep-vs-grep/
15:19 pdurbin grep without pcre is a sad grep :(
15:19 ironcamel looks like ack is actually faster
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15:26 Whoop eheh, it does appear to be faster now that I'm trying it - could have sworn last I tried it was a load slower >_<
15:30 pdurbin heh. +1
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15:31 pdurbin it turns out I didn't need pcre... I needed to adjust my TopScoreDocCollector: http://irclog.greptilian.com​/sourcefu/2013-05-08#i_5975
15:31 agoddard_ argh frikken IRC fail on my end lately
15:32 pdurbin agoddard_: you're back!
15:39 ben_e pdurbin: i like your abcd suggestion
15:40 ben_e make him eat the github dogfood
15:41 pdurbin heh
15:42 pdurbin ben_e: probably off topic here since that list isn't public :/
15:56 agoddard_ frikken ABCD
15:56 agoddard_ what's a guy gotta do?
15:56 ben_e it's an awfully loose affiliation requirement
15:56 agoddard_ not loose enough :(
15:56 agoddard_ I was in a meeting the other day and some guy from Harv medical school was like "dudebro, bring that up on ABCD"
15:57 agoddard_ and I was like "I was banned in ABC -DC"
15:57 agoddard_ :(
15:58 pdurbin agoddard_: "Formed in November, 1985" -- https://www.abcd.harvard.edu/intro.html :)
15:58 agoddard_ pdurbin: agoddard - not allowed in 2012
16:03 pdurbin agoddard_: you still work on EOL right? http://www.mcz.harvard.edu/initiatives/eol.html
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16:40 agoddard_ pdurbin: roger
16:47 ben_e did you really get kicked out? what list was it on?
16:47 ben_e i want to check out your heinous crimes in the list archives... :-)
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17:43 dotplus Whoop: also, ack recently got a 2.0 release with some significant improvements: http://beyondgrep.com/ack-2.0
17:46 pdurbin oh yes
17:47 pdurbin dotplus: I don't have as much time to read as I'd like :(
17:59 dotplus ha! who does? ever!
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18:21 pdurbin yeah
18:22 pdurbin has anybody seen this thing? MessagePack: It's like JSON. but fast and small. - http://msgpack.org
18:24 larsks I've seen that and used it a bit.  Ended up going with JSON anyway because I can parse it in my head :).
18:25 larsks There are msgpack modules for python, ruby, C, etc...
18:28 pdurbin :)
18:34 agoddard_ ben_e: haha, I didn't get kicked out, just wasn't allowed in
18:34 pdurbin larsks: if anyone can parse binary in one's head it's you
18:34 agoddard_ ben_e: so I compiled a list of all the members and they're now banned from conferences
18:39 ben_e heh
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19:22 dotplus oh Canonical. really?
19:22 dotplus http://www.phoronix.com/scan.ph​p?page=news_item&amp;px=MTM2Nzg
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19:34 semiosis dotplus: looks like they're trying to replace APK (android packages) not DEB
19:37 dotplus perhaps. but it doesn't smell promising. it sure looks like they're aiming at iOS-ification: ubuntu app store, this...
19:38 semiosis yeah they're going after mobile
19:38 semiosis no secret
19:38 * dotplus is actually considering exploring debian seriously for the first time in ~15 years as a unix person.
19:39 dotplus so confirm/promise that this only goes on the mobile-aimed ubuntu derivative and not everywhere?
19:39 semiosis well i think that's the main "Ubuntu"
19:40 semiosis they do seem to be going after apple's integration between desktop & mobile
19:40 dotplus I've been mostly on redhat derivatives and BSDs, but plain old debian is looking interesting again. maybe I'll have a proper chance to get as familiar with it as I am the others and give a fair shake
19:41 dotplus I guess it's their distro they can do what they like.
19:41 semiosis i've been using kubuntu on my desktop, both work & personal, for about 3 years running, and i highly recommend it
19:42 semiosis i've never been happier with a desktop OS
19:42 semiosis give it a try
19:42 * semiosis not a fan of gnome or unity
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20:18 dotplus I have kubuntu on my work desktop. it doesn't completely suck, and I don't complain about it too much because I haven't put in any work to make it suck less
20:19 dotplus otoh, switching between apps and switching between different windows of the same app are (usually, not always!), extremely slow.
20:21 larsks I use the Awesome window manager.  Because I can't be bothered with dragging windows around.
20:22 dotplus gnome/unity is, shall we say, not for me. When I move to the next machine, I'll probably try to get back to a nice snappy tiling wm. xmonad was a pain, but once I got what I wanted it was wonderful, until arch broke it.
20:22 dotplus I'm considering i3, awesome, xmonad for the next one.
20:25 larsks I've found awesome to be generally easy to work with.  I like the various tiling modes it supports.
20:33 pdurbin what's up with vagrant dropping arch support in the latest version?
20:34 pdurbin compare http://downloads.vagrantup.com/tags/v1.1.5 and http://downloads.vagrantup.com/tags/v1.2.0
20:44 pdurbin must mean arch is dead ;)
20:46 melodie pdurbin arch what ?
21:02 semiosis google arch linux
21:02 crimsonfubot` https://www.archlinux.org/
21:03 semiosis melodie: ^
21:05 melodie pdurbin Archlinux is in full shape, see ? Linux nounours 3.8.11-1-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Thu May 2 17:52:13 CEST 2013 i686 GNU/Linux
21:14 pdurbin ok ok :)
21:16 pdurbin dotplus: melodie and I need to teach you about CoLT so we could have seen "Ubuntu To Get Its Own Package Format, App Installer" with your link :)
21:17 semiosis colt?
21:19 pdurbin crimsonfubot`: lucky colt firefox addon
21:19 crimsonfubot` pdurbin: https://addons.mozilla.org​/En-us/firefox/addon/colt/
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21:39 semiosis oh i see
21:40 semiosis could also have crimsonfubot` fetch titles
21:40 semiosis ;)
22:03 pdurbin semiosis: I think it does in "google" mode...
22:03 pdurbin crimsonfubot`: google semiosis
22:03 crimsonfubot` pdurbin: Semiosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiosis>; Semiotics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics>; Semiosis - Merriam-Webster Online: <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semiosis>; Peirce Dictionary: Semiosis, Semeiosy - Helsinki.fi: <http://www.helsinki.fi/scienc​e/commens/terms/semiosis.html>; Semiosis -- (1 more message)
22:03 pdurbin yeah
22:03 * pdurbin gives crimsonfubot` a treat
22:04 pdurbin hmm, now that I'm its owner... I wonder if I can change it's nick... get rid of that `
22:05 pdurbin crimsonfubot`: nick crimsonfubot
22:05 crimsonfubot` pdurbin: Error: You don't have the admin capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
22:10 pdurbin crimsonfubot`: nick crimsonfubot
22:11 pdurbin there
22:13 pdurbin had to run "/msg crimsonfubot` identify pdurbin s3m10s15suCk5" first
22:22 pdurbin maybe I should write a little howto for crimsonfubot
22:25 melodie <semiosis> could also have crimsonfubot` fetch titles // LOL
22:27 pdurbin patches welcome :)
22:35 ben_e +1 for awesome
22:36 ben_e tiling windows managers (and punk rock) changed my life
23:09 semiosis hahahaha
23:10 * semiosis out

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