Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #crimsonfu, 2014-11-14

crimsonfu - sysadmins who code

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Time Nick Message
00:14 prologic joined #crimsonfu
00:15 prologic interesting :)
00:17 pdurbin hydrajump and codex: please welcome prologic, a fellow docker user
00:17 pdurbin larsks: and pythonista
00:18 pdurbin creator of http://circuitsframework.com
00:18 prologic Thanks pdurbin :)
00:19 pdurbin prologic: so you sound pretty interested in dox: http://irclogs.shortcircuit.net.au/%23circuits/2014-11-14.log.html#t00:12:00
00:19 pdurbin searchbot: lucky dox docker
00:19 searchbot pdurbin: http://blog.chmouel.com/2014/09/08/dox-a-tool-that-run-python-or-others-tests-in-a-docker-container/
00:19 pdurbin searchbot: lucky dox docker pypi
00:19 searchbot pdurbin: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/dox/9f33ae5
00:21 prologic hehe
00:21 * prologic pats searchbot
00:21 prologic nice bot :)
00:22 pdurbin yeah. and ilbot3 does the logging but it isn't mine
00:22 prologic *nods*
00:23 prologic hmm
00:23 prologic it's one of those things really
00:23 prologic I could write my own CI
00:23 prologic using circuits ofc
00:23 prologic but do I have to? :)
00:24 pdurbin we use jenkins at work
00:24 prologic *nods*
00:24 prologic I've used it before too
00:25 prologic and built CRUX based Docker images for it
00:25 prologic and had a whole setup that worked quite wel for circuits
00:25 prologic but I haven't maintained it anywhere useful as such
00:25 prologic mainly due to lack of infrastructure
00:25 prologic but I may put it back up on DO maybe
00:25 prologic or see how Drone's development pans out
00:25 prologic thing is; neither Jenkins or Drone would suffice here
00:26 prologic because CRUX's ports are in "collections"
00:26 prologic so for example core, opt, xorg, contrib, etc
00:26 prologic are collections of ports (each a repo)
00:27 prologic so you can't just detect a change in that repo and run dox on it without elaborate commands in the dox.yml that try to work out what port(s) changed and rebuild those
00:36 pdurbin prologic: sorry, I was staring at a Java stacktrace and wanted to send it off
00:38 prologic hehe
00:38 pdurbin searchbot: lucky crux port package
00:38 searchbot pdurbin: http://crux.nu/Main/Handbook3-0
00:39 pdurbin so this uses BSD ports, basically?
00:42 prologic https://pypi.python.org/pypi/utmp
00:42 prologic ^^^ cool :)
00:42 prologic BSD ports?
00:42 prologic yeah sort of
00:43 prologic some of CRUX's inspiration probably came from *BSD
00:43 prologic https://bitbucket.org/prologic/ports/
00:43 prologic for a sample of my personal collection
00:43 prologic Also if it wasn't obvious before
00:44 prologic I want to do this for CRUX+Docker
00:44 prologic So I maintain official images of CRUX in the Docker Official Library
00:44 prologic namely "crux" versions 3.1 and 3.0
00:44 prologic i.e: current and previous veriojn
00:45 prologic my goal would be that crux/base (crux as the org and crux/base based on crux) adds pkg-get (our simple binary package manager and a default uri that points to where the CI publishes built packages)
00:50 pdurbin wow. that's a lot of ports you maintain
00:51 pdurbin what do you do for CI now?
00:51 prologic oh we don't
00:52 prologic we collectively as a community keep things tested and up-to-date
00:52 prologic it's the testing and publishing part(s) I want to automate
00:53 * pdurbin likes automation
00:53 prologic Also you should checkout a new project
00:53 prologic https://bitbucket.org/prologic/dcm
00:53 prologic little side project I quickly wrote up 2 weekends ago
00:55 pdurbin "dcm is a command-line tool to manage Docker' Hosts". cool
00:58 prologic yeah
00:58 prologic you can just do (for example):
00:59 prologic dcm create
00:59 prologic wait a minute or so
00:59 prologic and it prints the ip address of the new node
01:00 prologic the next couple of things I wanted to do are:
01:00 prologic some way of easily using/connecting to these remote docker hosts/nodes
01:00 prologic maybe a docker wrapper as such
01:00 prologic or an easy way to export the "right env vars"
01:00 prologic eval $(dcm env <node>)
01:01 prologic could be pretty nice
01:01 prologic then any docker or fig or whatever would work as expected against that host
01:01 prologic but maybe it might be even nicer to go virtualenvwrapper style
01:01 prologic dcm workon <node>
01:01 prologic sets up the right env vars and launahces a shell
01:01 prologic when you exit the shell you go back to your original shell
01:02 prologic the only thing I'm tossing up between
01:02 pdurbin I've recently gotten into workon/deactivate. very nice
01:02 prologic is whether ot use Docker's new TLS/SSL stuff and expose the Docker Remote API over TCP
01:02 prologic or to just simply setup an SSH tunnel when you do: dcm workon <node>
01:02 prologic I'm unsure of the pros/cons
01:03 prologic setting up TLS/SSL with the Docker Remote API though is *NOT* trivial
01:03 prologic I guess I could just try it? :)
01:03 prologic searchbot, lucky docker-tunnel pypi
01:03 searchbot prologic: https://github.com/tonyseek/docker-tunnel
01:03 prologic See ^^^
01:03 prologic Was going to rip that off or use it or boror iw, etc
01:04 prologic it does the ssh tunnel thing I mentioned
01:04 prologic looks like I could even use it as a library
01:04 pdurbin cool
01:04 prologic so
01:04 prologic dcm workon it is then? :)
01:07 pdurbin oh, I don't know. I'm interested in Docker but I haven't really used it in anger yet.
01:08 pdurbin prologic: did I show you https://github.com/IQSS/plaid ?
01:08 pdurbin I could maybe see using Docker for that some day.
01:09 prologic hmm
01:09 prologic not much there :)
01:09 prologic not sure what it's "going to be"
01:10 pdurbin oh, if you click the Google Doc
01:10 pdurbin it's Python-y so I thought you might be interested
01:11 prologic ahh i see
01:11 pdurbin right now we deploy to CentOS
01:11 pdurbin but I guess it could be whatever
01:11 prologic but that could easily be Docker containers based on CentOS
01:11 pdurbin sure
01:11 prologic not that the underlying distro matters at all
01:12 prologic I'm looking forward to when Docker get to a point where we can separate out build-time from run-time
01:12 pdurbin well, CentOS 6 is what our Ops guys give us
01:12 prologic which will result in images that just contain the application and runtime
01:12 prologic nothing else
01:12 prologic it won't even look like a distro file system
01:12 prologic we can already do this right now - but by hand
01:13 prologic it's a two step process
01:13 prologic build a docker image that builds an application and it's run-time, then export that out into a tarball, then import that into a new image
01:19 prologic https://github.com/docker/docker/issues/7115
01:20 pdurbin huh. nested builds
01:22 prologic https://github.com/docker/docker/issues/7149
01:22 prologic I kind of like the 2nd proposal better
01:22 prologic ihmo
01:22 prologic https://github.com/docker/docker/pull/8021
01:22 prologic which looks to be a current PR
01:47 pdurbin do most people who use docker host on their own boxes they set up? or do they use some kind of heroku of the docker world?
01:47 hydrajump hi prologic
01:48 hydrajump pdurbin: you should check out the past 2 days announcements from AWS. Especially today's releases ;)
01:48 pdurbin searchbot: lucky aws announcements
01:48 searchbot pdurbin: http://aws.amazon.com/new/
01:48 pdurbin hmm. http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2014/11/13/introducing-amazon-ec2-container-service/
01:49 hydrajump https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/cloud-container-management
01:49 pdurbin semiosis: do you use this stuff?
01:49 hydrajump pdurbin: it's not widely available yet. You have to sign up for a preview
01:50 pdurbin right. "preview" at http://aws.amazon.com/ecs/
01:50 hydrajump lots of exciting stuff :D
01:51 pdurbin neat
01:52 hydrajump also I saw your CI discussion earlier...this is one of 3 new services...https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/code-management-and-deployment
02:01 pdurbin nice. I mean, I'm not very familiar with AWS but I could see people liking this.
02:02 prologic pdurbin, because Docker is still relatively new
02:02 prologic a lot of folk use their own Infrastructure
02:02 prologic But players like Tutum and Amazon are making this less of an issue
02:02 prologic I tend to like to use my own Infrastructure though
02:06 pdurbin but at least the containers should be portable. you could start on AWS or your own kit and move the containers around
02:09 pdurbin LyndsySimon: check out this Flask thing: http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2012/8/5/stateless-and-proud/
02:14 prologic images
02:15 prologic but yes :)
02:16 prologic hmm
02:16 prologic I guess circuits.web has been able to do this for quite some time
02:16 prologic even without the help of redis :)
02:21 pdurbin prologic: somehow I was wondering if you'd say that :)
02:22 pdurbin via http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-13#t1415930129795
02:25 * prologic reads
02:28 prologic https://gist.github.com/78185bea0ec976ece439
02:41 pdurbin cool
03:16 prologic proof of concept works :)
03:16 prologic I'll clean it up and add the new feature
03:17 prologic dcm workon <node-id>
05:33 prologic https://gist.github.com/bb095843dbf63f1a3fe3
05:36 codex prologic: welcome :)
05:44 prologic hi :)
06:09 bear pdurbin - I run a static site for indieweb but also have behind nginx a flask app for webmention handling and indieauth handling
11:53 pdurbin bear: ah. nice. I just know LyndsySimon works on one too
14:15 LyndsySimon pdurbin: We seem to be settling on using Tornado for apps that need push/pull. Flask works well enough, but when you start scaling horizontally the limitations of how LocalProxy objects start to become much more apparent.
14:18 pdurbin hmm. ok
14:18 pdurbin so far I only have very limited experience with Django
14:46 LyndsySimon I worked with Django some several years ago, but haven't touched it since then. I want to say I was using version 0.97 at the time, if that tells you anything :)
14:47 LyndsySimon I have a side project that I've been writing in Flask, but realized a few days ago that I'm basically re-implemented Django's auth and admin interfaces. I'm seriously considering moving that to Django in the next week or so.
15:01 pdurbin oh, we've done some of our own auth in Java for sure
17:16 semiosis pdurbin: i've not used anything containerish yet
17:24 pdurbin semiosis: but now you can since it's on AWS :)
17:24 semiosis how do containers fit in an immutable infrastructure?
18:51 JamesBay joined #crimsonfu
21:12 prologic LyndsySimon, you could consider circuits.web :)
21:13 prologic semiosis, immutable infrastructure?
21:14 semiosis @lucky immutable infrastructure
21:14 semiosis @#&$*(^)@#
21:14 semiosis searchbot: version
21:14 searchbot semiosis: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
21:14 semiosis bwahahahah
21:15 semiosis prologic: basically building a golden image for a server then deploying clusters from that image
21:15 prologic ic
21:15 semiosis prologic: not updating existing servers with new deploys or config changes, but rather replacing them with new servers from a new golden image
21:16 prologic by server I assume you mean app/service in the context of Docker?
21:16 prologic the convention is that a Docker image usually runs one thing or one kind of thing
21:16 semiosis i mean precisely EC2 instances
21:16 semiosis i dont see how docker fits into that picture
21:16 prologic ic
21:16 prologic ihmo Docker would repalce the whole concept of EC2 instnaces
21:17 prologic AFAIK AWS are introducing native Docker support anyway
21:17 prologic to complement their EC2 offerings
21:18 semiosis guess i'll have to read up ont hat
21:18 prologic *nods*
21:19 prologic in any case the whole notion of immutable infrastructure as you call it is already (and has always been) quite possible with Docker - in fact there is no other way really :)
21:19 prologic and I think that's one of the greater appeals :)
21:19 semiosis interesting
21:19 prologic reproducible repeatable infrastructure
21:20 prologic I've been using Docker since 0.7 :)
21:20 semiosis on your own hardware?
21:21 prologic *nods*
21:22 semiosis ah
21:22 prologic I now also run it on DO
21:22 prologic https://bitbucket.org/prologic/dcm
21:22 semiosis we run in ec2, so i'm v. interested in reducing complexity & cost there.  if docker can help, great, i just havent any idea how it would
21:22 prologic I wrote this because I couldn't wait for host management to come in Docker
21:22 prologic which is coming really soon :)
21:23 semiosis nice
21:23 prologic I think IHMO AWS will take up Docker fully and whole heartedly
21:23 prologic they simply can't ignore it
21:23 prologic it's lightweight virtualization essentially
21:23 prologic full blown VM(s) might just die off for the most part :)
21:23 prologic haha
21:24 prologic except in special use-cases where a full hypervisor is required
21:24 semiosis windows :(
21:24 prologic bbs - going out
21:24 semiosis later
21:24 prologic even Windows can be Dockerized
21:24 semiosis oh wow
21:24 prologic a Docker container/image runing kvm/qemu in privielged mode
21:24 prologic done :)
21:24 semiosis neat
22:13 LyndsySimon prologic: I just read all the docs for circuits.web. My mind is currently blown, but I think I like what I see so far.
22:29 LyndsySimon Is there a name for the architecture for which circuits is designed? I've obviously used MVC (and derivatives) in the past, and while that would work here it doesn't seem natural. It almost feels like what I would think of as a model should be a complex component itself.
23:02 pdurbin LyndsySimon: well, apparently it's not MVC: "circuits.web does not provide high level features such as... Model View Controller" http://circuits.readthedocs.org/en/latest/web/features.html
23:02 LyndsySimon Right - but you could implement it, if you wanted.
23:03 pdurbin yeah. seems very flexible
23:47 prologic LyndsySimon, yes - Component Architecture
23:48 prologic precisely
23:48 prologic If you want the whole MVC shebang, go right ahead :)
23:49 prologic for the most port, myself and other users get away with Controller(s) (we do provide a simple Component for that), Templates and JS/CSS :)
23:49 prologic but yeah ideally your application should be comprised of composable components really :)
23:52 prologic here's probably two examples of reuseable components in the context of circuits.web (dataconv the project itself is/was an experimental cli data transformer and I later toyed with the idea of making it web enabled):
23:52 prologic auth.py: https://bitbucket.org/prologic/dataconv/src/ed47d8914ccd8f6e4d406d0dd2f8d76487e3d7be/auth.py?at=default
23:53 prologic server.py: https://bitbucket.org/prologic/dataconv/src/ed47d8914ccd8f6e4d406d0dd2f8d76487e3d7be/server.py?at=default
23:53 prologic the more interesting components are probably JinjaRendere, Authentication and LoginManager

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