Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #crimsonfu, 2015-03-14

crimsonfu - sysadmins who code

| Channels | #crimsonfu index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:14 pdurbin mhayden: https://twitter.com/HoldMyBeerGif/status/576141882889277441
00:14 pdurbin bene: so you like the look of Matrix?
00:15 pdurbin er, that was for bear
00:17 bear I have looked at it lightly - will be exploring it more this weekend
00:28 pdurbin gotcha
00:29 pdurbin oh, and I enjoyed all the chatter about IRC at http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-13#t1426285076716
00:29 pdurbin "IRC is the stepping stone to a indieweb identity federated chat environment" --bear
00:30 bear i've been thinking about this for a long time now
00:34 pdurbin Back in the day, people were upset about the lack of interop between AIM and Yahoo Messenger and MSN Messenger and whatever else. They said they wanted federated chat.
00:35 * bear nods
00:35 bear we used to have it, for a very short period, when they all had xmpp gateways
00:35 bear but that went away
00:36 pdurbin so it goes
00:37 pdurbin I wonder how an indieweb federated chat environment would differ from XMPP.
00:39 bear no xml is the biggest thing
00:39 bear it would probably be html or json snippets
00:40 bear but all of that is plumbing as tantek likes to say
00:41 bear so at the core, it probably would not be much different than a basic xmpp message - since all that is really is JID and the message text
00:42 pdurbin makes sense
00:42 bear a JID in the indieweb realm is your domain
00:43 bear and text is text - all of the rest is extra: timestamp, tags, etc
00:43 pdurbin searchbot: lucky xmpp jid
00:43 searchbot pdurbin: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0029.html
00:44 bear JID == Jabber ID
00:44 bear user@domain
00:44 bear so a JID maps perfectly to a indieweb id if you run your own xmpp server
00:45 pdurbin yeah, I'm seeing the example "room@chat.example.com/user@host" here: RFC 6122 - Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP): Address Format - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6122
00:46 bear that's a long form alternate
00:46 pdurbin ah
00:46 bear it's userid@xmpp_host
00:47 bear as long as xmpp_host can be resolved to a server name
00:47 bear to get the IP and port
00:47 bear and userid is meaningful in that xmpp server's userid space
00:47 bear my personal xmpp JID is bear@bear.im
00:47 prologic heh
00:47 bear which is also my email address
00:47 prologic IHMO IRC has always been the more superior form of chat
00:48 bear that's because IRC is chat at it's most basic
00:48 pdurbin well, chat was bolted on to XMPP as an extension, right? XEP-0045: Multi-User Chat - http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html
00:48 bear right
00:48 bear IRC == MUC
00:49 prologic yeah
00:49 pdurbin I mean, XMPP was primarily built for private one-to-one messaging. AIM, basically.
00:49 prologic let's not forget that many of these so-called chat protocols were in fact extensions of IRC itself :)
00:49 prologic e.g: MSN
00:50 bear yea, they all come from the same chat parents: UUCP groups aka usenet
00:50 bear IRC, XMPP, etc
00:51 bear it's always been identity that drove most of this
00:51 bear and why silos are king
00:51 pdurbin Wait, I thought Usenet was NNTP. That's not chat.
00:52 bear before usenet switching to NNTP it was UUCP bangpath delivered
00:52 bear think BBS - Fidonet stuff
00:52 bear you sent your message which was tagged for a group to your upstream
00:54 bear I really should be saying UUCP news - because the smallest pieces of UUCP were mail and news
00:54 pdurbin so that was... kind of like chat?
00:54 bear yep
00:54 pdurbin ok
00:54 bear you sent to your upstream server your "news article"
00:54 pdurbin but how "real time" was it?
00:54 bear hahahaha
00:54 bear it wasn't real time at all
00:55 bear each ! path item had to be dialed by modem
00:55 prologic that's where talk/wall came in
00:55 prologic then soon after irc :)
00:55 bear right - but those were only valid on the server you were in
00:55 pdurbin well, for my money chat is real time
00:55 bear right
00:55 prologic right
00:55 pdurbin if it's not real time, it's something else. a forum or whatever
00:55 prologic but they became the irc we know today
00:55 bear yea, I'm just bringing these up as examples of history
00:56 pdurbin sure sure
00:56 prologic well to be fair
00:56 prologic irc could be even more realtime
00:56 bear yea, the indieweb folks want to bring irc over to the web side so they can mix realtime chat *and* forums
00:56 prologic but it would require a different kind of protocol :)
00:56 prologic one that was event based :)
00:56 bear yea, your talking google wave type eventing
00:56 prologic precisely
00:56 prologic and bringing irc more to the web I think is a great thing
00:56 prologic look at slack
00:57 bear which was xmpp based :)
00:57 prologic they have a fancy ass chat system
00:57 prologic which is great
00:57 prologic but also offer xmpp and irc gateways
00:57 prologic which is just awesome
00:57 bear yea, slack is what we use at work now for a lot of stuff
00:57 prologic I wish we did
00:57 bear and I use it mostly thru my IRC client
00:57 prologic we use stink'n Hipchat
00:58 prologic it's UI sucks ass
00:58 pdurbin You guys want Google Wave? Isn't IRC real time enough?
00:58 prologic and well everything about it sucks really
00:58 bear because it has a better presentation than it's web
00:58 prologic pdurbin, IHMO - yes
00:58 prologic :)
00:58 bear ugh - never liked hipchat
00:58 prologic no me neither
00:58 prologic it's quite frankly horrible
00:58 prologic and utterly useless really
00:58 prologic you can connect to it via irc using bitlbee
00:58 prologic but that's an even worse experience ihmo
00:59 prologic such a useless thing Atlassian bought
00:59 bear that sounds fragile
00:59 prologic some software really should just die
00:59 prologic :)
00:59 bear agreed
01:00 bear this is one area that the indieweb folk get a bit backwards - for federated to work you need to focus on the pipes
01:00 bear and make sure that your interface to the pipe is flexible, but you still need to get the plumbing right
01:01 pdurbin I've asked if indieweb leads to group think: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-16/line/1413498731528
01:01 bear they manage to avoid cargo cults a lot
01:01 bear come close sometimes, but they haven't yet
01:02 bear because they always treat the UX as key and don't sweat the implementation
01:03 prologic we should hack on charla at https://bitbucket.org/prologic/charla
01:03 pdurbin Don't get me wrong, I like the indieweb people. I'm maybe 80% with their party line.
01:03 prologic and bring this to the web via websocekts
01:04 * bear nods
01:04 prologic and also bring federated features
01:04 prologic such as linking to other irc networks
01:04 bear right
01:04 prologic and even interfacing with jabber/xmpp networks
01:04 prologic the design of charla is flexible enough to achieve this
01:04 bear some of them are html only!!!!
01:04 prologic without god objects
01:04 prologic or cargo cult programming
01:04 prologic ):
01:04 prologic fuck the html only ones :)
01:05 bear those thankfully are a very small part
01:05 pdurbin prologic: you're going to make IRC federated? "No open federation" is something Matrix wants to improve on according to "What’s the difference between Matrix and IRC?" at https://matrix.org/blog/faq/
01:05 bear charla sounds a lot like what the matrix folks are trying to d
01:05 prologic well it's not that hard really
01:05 bear o
01:05 prologic one thing that can be done with a new irc server implentnation
01:06 prologic is the notion of handling duplicate identities
01:06 prologic such that two or more people can use the same handle if you will
01:06 prologic but not in the same "room"
01:06 pdurbin that sounds... confusing
01:06 prologic this could be extended even further too
01:06 prologic not really :)
01:06 prologic it could be done seamlessly
01:07 prologic without users having to do much at all
01:07 prologic bear: yeah :)
01:07 prologic I wish I had a bit of help, etc
01:07 prologic I run out of steam on that one for the time being
01:08 bear yea, my new role as project manager for our dev team has me swamped - or I would be hacking on a lot of this stuff as it really interests me
01:08 prologic it's a prototype at best atm, but the structure is there to extend it to whatever we want
01:08 pdurbin prologic: bummer, they're using twisted rather than circuits: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse
01:08 prologic I'm focused atm on vallinux
01:08 prologic so yeah
01:09 prologic pdurbin, uggh
01:09 pdurbin lolz
01:09 prologic that'll slow their progress down significantly
01:09 prologic seriously
01:09 prologic the twisted framework is nuts
01:09 pdurbin prologic: send them a pull request ;)
01:09 prologic not to mention it's not a component architecture
01:09 prologic so no loose coupling
01:09 prologic :(
01:09 prologic haha
01:10 pdurbin bear: sounds fun though
01:10 prologic hmm
01:10 prologic no thanks
01:10 prologic that codebase looks huge already
01:11 pdurbin I guess IRC is still good enough for now.
01:11 * pdurbin puts his feet up
01:12 bear :)
01:22 prologic haha
01:37 pdurbin I'm told that this issue has something to do with "read-only view of the public matrix rooms" https://matrix.org/jira/browse/SYN-283
01:38 pdurbin nice people
02:13 pdurbin "Creation and management of fully distributed chat rooms with no single points of control or failure" http://matrix.org/docs/spec/
02:13 pdurbin that does sound pretty neat
12:21 pdurbin speaking of IRC
12:21 pdurbin this is an interesting thread:
12:21 pdurbin Jeff Atwood on Twitter: "I like Slack, and I kinda hate IRC, but the idea of Slack "replacing" IRC is not good. Only an open source tool should ever do that." - https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/575797613909278720
12:23 pdurbin I'm not sure I agree with this though:
12:24 pdurbin Jeff Atwood on Twitter: "@Myotherpants pretty much, problem is, chat produces near zero useful search results. (vs. forums, vs. stack) so hard to get excited about" - https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/575798049907171328
12:25 pdurbin ... because in practice, now that I have years of logged chat conversations from this channel and others indexed by Google I'm easily able to find old conversations that have good information in them.
12:28 pdurbin And yet, Mr. Atwood seems interested in improving chat, some day: https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/575799919681765377
12:29 pdurbin And *someone* at Stack Exchange built a chat thing.
12:29 pdurbin So clearly he thinks chat has some value.
12:41 larsks pdurbin: I think the point re: search is that while inidividuals may have chat logs, there is no good "search all the chats" site anywhere, and it's not possible in any search engine to say, "restrict my results to irc conversations".
16:26 pdurbin yeah, that could be his point
17:03 bear chat is like the saying "a person is good, a crowd is not" -- being able to search single chat room logs is meaningful because of the implied topic scope where as searching across multiple chat room logs is nigh impossible because of identity and topic divergence
17:03 bear only if your logging process can link the chatter identity across rooms (like what the stack exchange team did) *and* keep each room focused on a topic, then you will get the most benefit from it
17:04 pdurbin Yeah. I mean Twitter is fine for just general chatter but I like that IRC is split into rooms based on topics.
17:08 larsks Huh.  You could write a client that would present an irc-like view of twitter based on hash tags, which would actually look pretty natural to irc users.  You know, "/join #crimsonfu" would put you in a window that only saw messages with the '#crimsonfu' hashtag, and any messages you typed there would automatically get the hashtag appended...
17:08 pdurbin could do
17:10 larsks That would be sort of run.  And you would call it "twirc".  And using it would be "twircing".
17:10 larsks s/run/fun/
17:10 bear lol
17:27 pdurbin nice, I'm not the only one who has used that hashtag: https://twitter.com/hashtag/crimsonfu :)
17:50 pdurbin I dunno. Twitter was way more interesting to me when it seemed like it wanted to be plumbing: http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/11/why-i-like-twitter.html
17:51 pdurbin "Twitter is a re-incarnation of the old Unix philosophy of simple, cooperating tools."
17:51 pdurbin but now Twitter wants you to use their client exclusively
17:54 pdurbin I guess I'm saying I'm fine with something better or different coming along.
18:23 larsks Oh man, someone did it already: https://github.com/semifor/twirc
18:25 pdurbin 'This isn't normal IRC
18:25 pdurbin behavior, but "twirc" isn't a normal IRC server.
18:26 pdurbin :)
22:09 searchbot joined #crimsonfu
22:29 melodie joined #crimsonfu
23:15 melodie good night
23:51 larsks Also this: https://twirc.io/
23:52 larsks ...which does almost exactly what I was suggesting (treating hashtags like channels), although through a web ui rather than actually implementing an irc interface.

| Channels | #crimsonfu index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

crimsonfu - sysadmins who code