Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #darcs, 2006-07-07

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 eivuokko Do you mean putty warnings or your control master-check?
00:01 kowey i mean, like telling you scp progress
00:01 kowey (pscp)
00:01 eivuokko That acn be get rid of by supplying -q via environment
00:01 eivuokko But, yeah, it is annoying and almost totally uninformative.
00:02 kowey hmm... yeah, that makes life hard for me then
00:02 eivuokko darcs really should have general framework on invoking external utilities.
00:02 kowey putty seems to interact by putting prompts on stdout
00:02 eivuokko And less using environent and more config files.
00:02 kowey instead of on /dev/tty (or the windows equivalent)
00:02 eivuokko There is no convient Windows equivalent, I think.
00:02 kowey argh
00:03 ricky_clarkson Is there a reason that you target putty rather than openssh?  I might be misreading.
00:03 kowey i have something that fixes redirection to /dev/null on windows
00:03 eivuokko ricky, putty is much nicer to install.
00:03 kowey but me fixing this, means that i "break" putty, because now you no longer know when putty is asking for your password
00:03 eivuokko kowey, Are you sure it works in all cases?  It is very tricky.
00:04 eivuokko Does using gpg work after that?  Does invoking sendmail command work after that? (that being your fix)
00:04 kowey no idea, i'm not on windows
00:04 eivuokko It also might break win9x, which we might not support.
00:04 kowey only thing i can do is make sure the fix compiles, and then hope a windows guy tests it
00:05 kowey but the "fix" consists of dumping stdout to a temp file (and ignore it)... this simulates /dev/null
00:05 kowey but i guess we can't do that
00:05 kowey no big deal though... my recent ssh-stuff doesn't require this, i guess
00:05 eivuokko When using shell stuff, like darc sdoes in Windows.  You can use NUL, it's Windows equivalanet of /dev/null, instead of unneccesary temp file.
00:06 kowey ah very good, but still the essential problem with putty (unless i'm mistaken)
00:06 eivuokko Yes, it was just a note.
00:06 kowey is that fixing redirection to /dev/null (i.e. by sending it to NUL) breaks putty
00:06 eivuokko Yes.
00:06 eivuokko Likely anyway.
00:07 eivuokko I'm not promising to compile Windows darcs, but if you have binaries and good test-case, I'll test.
00:07 kowey sigh... i wonder what else might break... little else, i'd hope, because gpg and sendmail probably do standard unixy things
00:07 eivuokko I'll try to get around to hack darcs sometime (for Windows compatibility), but it's too unmotivating, so it might not last again.
00:08 kowey what would be useful is a putty wrapper, if one of you folks can build it
00:08 eivuokko Eh
00:08 eivuokko Uhm
00:08 kowey said wrapper should allow us to redirect stdout/stderr, but still somehow interact with the user
00:08 eivuokko Tricky.
00:08 eivuokko Good idea, but very likely tricky.
00:09 kowey so there really is no simple windows equivalent of foo > /dev/tty, huh?
00:09 eivuokko Well
00:09 eivuokko Yeah, there are console functions in winapi
00:09 kowey cringes
00:09 eivuokko But assosiating console with c filehandles and haskell filehandles might be tricky, impossible or require atleast poking ghc rts (which won't propagate as usefull feature for months)
00:10 arete you've got to be careful not to break darcs running inside emacs/rxvt/etc though
00:10 arete since those aren't treated as console
00:10 kowey ooh... i wonder how all this works under windows
00:10 kowey ok, no, i need to stop thinking about this and focus on the ssh stuff
00:11 kowey i leave the windows-stuff to somebody who actually knows windows
00:11 eivuokko Yeah, like rest of darcs devels :)
00:11 eivuokko During the last year, just about every Windows-workaround in darcs has been broken :)
00:12 kowey i wonder if it would be reasonable to say that this behaviour (user interactions on stdout) is a putty bug
00:12 kowey (assuming that's actually what's going on)
00:12 eivuokko I am fairly sure you can tell it to shut it
00:12 eivuokko With right commandline, that is
00:12 kowey well, making putty quiet is not the problem
00:13 kowey the problem is actually making putty talkative enough so that you know that you've got a password prompt
00:13 eivuokko Failing when asking password instead of stopping would work usually, would it not?
00:13 kowey ?
00:13 kowey failing when asking password?
00:14 eivuokko Eh, sorry.  Failing when it needs password
00:14 eivuokko and stopping=stopping to ask password at prompt
00:14 eivuokko Ok, I'll check the docs if that is possible...
00:14 kowey you mean darcs should fail? (sorry, it's kinda late, i'm getting confused easily)
00:15 eivuokko pscp should fail
00:15 eivuokko And it does
00:15 kowey the thing is that i'm running the putty Unix port and guessing its windows behaviour from here
00:15 eivuokko if you use -batch option
00:15 kowey well, no, you _want_ the password prompt
00:15 kowey the cute thing is (guessing)
00:15 eivuokko No, you really don't.  It's insane to use it with it.
00:15 kowey that's a different story
00:15 eivuokko And if was toggleable on darcs prompt whetever to use it and hiding statisticsc, no prob.
00:16 kowey i mean, I at least want darcs-ssh to work as well as it did before any of my cm stuff
00:16 eivuokko Just add another option, --putty and make people use that with putty and do the right thing?
00:16 kowey (although, another completely unrelated thing, is that darcs could ask for the ssh password and then pass it in on the commandline to ssh/scp)
00:17 eivuokko Passing passwords on commandline is insecure.
00:17 kowey you mean, that when --putty, we don't redirect stdout to /dev/null?
00:17 eivuokko It is possible to spy them from another unprivileged account afair
00:18 eivuokko kowey, When using --putty, run pscp.exe and plink.exe, use -q and -batch on commandlines, don't try control master
00:18 eivuokko And allow putty-session syntax
00:18 eivuokko :)
00:18 kowey well, the control master bit is solved, afaik
00:18 kowey i just parse the help, instead of doing weird stuff
00:18 kowey pscp/plink is "solved" by environment variables, although that is clearly a pain
00:19 kowey passing -q and -batch (wait... batch? why?) sounds like a good idea
00:19 eivuokko Because that stops it asking password
00:19 eivuokko You probably need another option to enable that behaviour...
00:20 kowey is there an equivalent to control-master-like behaviour with putty?
00:20 eivuokko No
00:20 kowey (that would mean i can stop asking for that password?)
00:20 eivuokko Huh?
00:20 kowey otherwise, why would i want to stop putty for asking for a password?
00:20 eivuokko Asking the password is impossible to use in practice
00:20 kowey you mean, because we have to type the password in 10 million times?
00:20 eivuokko Because it asks it for every patch etc file copied from remote repo?
00:21 eivuokko I'd rather it said the error message: can't auth or whatever
00:21 eivuokko I'd know to start key maanger or read docs or ask on irc or ask on mailing list.
00:21 kowey I see : you think that with putty, we should force the use ssh-agent or something else
00:21 eivuokko Instead of thinking: "Mand darcs+putty on Windows sucks, why does it even work"
00:22 eivuokko kowey, I doubt anyone really uses it without using one.
00:22 kowey well, we've sort of lived with typing the password in 10 million times on Unix before CM
00:22 kowey or just using ssh-agent
00:22 kowey so it's not a putty-specific problem
00:22 eivuokko Well, it probably is easier to use putty's agent than unixy agent
00:22 arete quite a few people have actually complained that putty stops prompting for the password after a while and fails ;)
00:23 kowey like i said, i'm more interested in making darcs+putty not-broken... making it practical is a whole other story for me
00:23 eivuokko Well
00:23 eivuokko Try checking out something 100+patches repo with it asking password all the time...if that is works for you...
00:23 eivuokko "works"
00:24 kowey :-)
00:24 eivuokko Of course, matter of opinion.  And I do appreciate work and thought you put in this.
00:24 eivuokko Thanks.
00:24 kowey maybe if we whine enough, the putty people will implement control master
00:24 eivuokko It's in their wish list
00:24 eivuokko But it's said to be hard to implement on the tracker thingy.
00:24 kowey oh dear
00:24 eivuokko So, no holding breath.
00:25 eivuokko What would be much better, was asking putty installer (there is one nowdays) to register itself in registry, and hacking darcs to use that registry key, so that installing putty+darcs would be easy.
00:26 eivuokko I think there is uninstall key only, but no path to putty execs in installer.
00:26 kowey well, one easy thing i can do
00:26 kowey is an ifdef that makes plink/pscp the default ssh/scp on windows
00:26 eivuokko Tell on mailing list that Windows people should work on this?
00:26 eivuokko No don't
00:27 eivuokko That causes no end for the scremas from the openssh users in cygwin or msys env
00:27 kowey nods
00:27 arete it is easy enough to rename your putty to ssh anyway, that's what I do
00:28 eivuokko It is stupid when it'd be easy to add --putty flag to darcs, imo.
00:29 eivuokko And trying to find putty execs in a) next to darcs.ex b) in Program Files\whatever c) registry key if there is standard one for putty
00:31 eivuokko shuts up and goes back lurking
00:45 kowey actually...
00:45 kowey maybe we should *not* redirect stdout to /dev/null when running ssh
00:46 kowey i think openssh also supports a -q flag
00:46 kowey so what we could do is not redirect, and just use -q universally
02:00 vincenz h
02:00 vincenz hi
02:00 vincenz anyone up?
02:00 eivuokko Yup
02:01 vincenz I have written a small tool to mass pull from one darcs forest to another darcs forest
02:01 vincenz it will even prompt you if in the to-forest a repo is missing
02:01 vincenz however it'd be nice to tell it to stop recursing in parts of the forest
02:01 vincenz so I'm considering putting a small file there
02:01 vincenz how does _darcstop sound?
02:02 eivuokko _darcs/prefs/3rdparty/darcs-apply/nouprecurce and nodownrecurse? :)
02:02 vincenz eivuokko: well erm
02:02 eivuokko I don't exactly recall where darcs recommends to put external tool prefs
02:02 eivuokko But it was something like that.
02:02 vincenz it'd be for directories that are not darcs repos
02:02 vincenz imagine
02:02 eivuokko Uhm
02:02 vincenz work/repo1
02:02 vincenz work/ext/repo2
02:02 vincenz work/ext/repo3
02:02 eivuokko Mmhm
02:03 vincenz and I don't want darcs-apply to prompt me for the entire work/ext branch
02:03 eivuokko Yeah, it'd need to be a bit akward and repeating.
02:04 eivuokko I'd say _darcsapplyroot or something, but that's just diffrent name.  Nothing else comes immediately into my mind.
02:28 vincenz I'll go with dons' suggestion of using an option isntead of my original idea of tagging places with files
03:39 kowey so wait, telling ssh explicitly to interact via /dev/tty is bad because it would break emacs/rxvt/etc based darcs, right?
03:40 kowey is there then some easy magical equivalent to "/dev/tty" that gives me the... uh... current pseudo terminal, or whatever the heck it is that lets me make sure ssh actually talks to the user?
03:40 eivuokko Isn't there tty for unix programs always, except if they are daemons?
03:41 kowey does not know his way around unix (or actually any operating system)
03:42 kowey but my guess would be that, if if there were, it isn't neccesarily what you want
03:42 kowey consider, for example, launching a gui emacs
03:42 eivuokko Yes.
03:42 kowey tty would be the terminal from which you launched it, but the user isn't looking at that terminal
03:42 eivuokko Yes. :)
03:42 kowey he's looking at the emacs window with its emulator thingy
03:43 kowey hmmph... just when i thought i had this all wrappen up
03:55 lispy kowey: i wouldn't be surprised if ncurses had some functions for whatever magic you want to do with the terminal
03:56 kowey aww man, i'm getting that in over-my-head feeling again
03:57 eivuokko Yeah, UI stuff tends to lead wierd deps in system
04:16 eivuokko About ghc c--, I wonder if I am really right and it's just lucky that x86 has never died of register starvation because compiler ran out of places to spill register into when stg reg structure comes full.
04:18 njs kowey: if you run a program from M-x shell in emacs, the tty is the emacs buffer (effectively)
04:18 njs kowey: that's beacuse M-x shell takes the effort to set up a pty, like rxvt/xterm do
04:20 kowey oh, so using "/dev/tty" should be ok for them, then?
04:21 kowey i had done some test running darcs from vim (using !), and got the impression that it didn't work, and so just randomly figured i was in trouble for the rest
04:25 njs ! probably doesn't use a tty
07:56 roconnor does darcs send require a properly functioning sendmail on the local machine?
07:58 lelit no
07:58 lelit I mean, you can write the patch to a file, and then bring that to a mail-enpowered site
07:59 roconnor right
07:59 roconnor my laptop doesn't deliver mail, so I'll have to do that
08:27 tuomov you could also use esmtp or something
08:27 tuomov it sucks that there's no decent sendmail clone..
08:28 tuomov all seem to be geared for central servers, or don't do local delivery at all (for system messages etc.)
08:29 tuomov esmtp at least can be configured quite easily (and per user) for stuffing things on the isp's server, but it doesn't do local delivery
15:44 kowey so, i'd like to invite Pascal Molli (so6) to discuss with us patch theory, darcs, and his rcs
15:44 kowey what would be the best place for this: darcs-users, darcs-devel, or darcs-conflicts, or something else?
15:45 lispy patch theory?  sounds like darcs-conflicts, but not many people are on that list it's not a good place to get an audience
15:45 lispy what is so6?
15:47 lispy kowey: http://dev.libresource.org​/home/doc/so6-user-manual ??
15:47 lambdabot Title: "LibreSource - So6 User Manual"
15:49 kowey so6 is a patch-based revision control system
15:50 kowey the author says he knows a little bit about patch theory and would like to know more
15:50 kowey his approach (if i understand arjanb correctly) is quite different from darcs
15:50 kowey but there are things we might be able to learn from each other
15:50 kowey or if not, maybe the discussion will be fun to have
15:52 lispy yeah, that really sounds like darcs-conflicts
15:57 Heffalump the web page seems pretty confusing
15:57 Heffalump oh, actually I think I see.
15:57 Heffalump Sounds very similar to darcs.
16:06 kowey i have invited him to subscribe to darcs-conflicts
16:06 kowey if he does so, i will post a mail to darcs-devel, and rouse the #revctrl people
16:37 aFlag I want to get a file that I've deleted through darcs back, it was saved on earlier patches
16:38 eivuokko Check out repo on new directory and unpull the patch that removes the file.
16:38 lelit or rollback the same patch
18:10 ricky_clarkson Hi.  I just edited some stuff in _darcs by accident.
18:10 ricky_clarkson What should I do?
18:12 Igloo darcs repair, assuming you mean _darcs/current/
18:13 ricky_clarkson No, pristine.
18:13 ricky_clarkson I can grab the _darcs from another copy I suppose.
18:13 ricky_clarkson I might just see if I can my editor to restore stuff.
18:14 ricky_clarkson I know, diff _darcs otherrepo/_darcs should do it.
18:15 Igloo current and pristine are the same thing
18:15 ricky_clarkson Ok.
18:15 ricky_clarkson darcs repair then?
18:15 Igloo Yup
18:16 ricky_clarkson It told me I have different file lengths for _darcs/pristine/somefile and _darcs/newpristine/somefile
18:16 ricky_clarkson Fixing pristine tree... then exited.
18:16 ricky_clarkson Do I need to do anything?
18:16 Igloo It should have fixed it for you
18:16 ricky_clarkson By applying all the patches?
18:17 Igloo Right
18:17 ricky_clarkson I see, thanks.  And 'Phew'.
18:24 vmiklos hi
18:24 vmiklos using multiple apply --posthook foo in the defaults file is ok?
18:24 vmiklos or what is the recommended way to use multiple hooks?
19:16 lispy vmiklos: iirc you there can be only one
19:16 lispy vmiklos: you can get around this multiple ways, you can use && or ; to list multiple commands on one line or you can write a script that combines them and call that
19:46 vmiklos lispy: yes, that's what i did, a makefile target with multiple purposes
23:54 aFlag in order to upgrade my repository from darcs 1.0.2 to 1.0.8 do I have to anything?

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