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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
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| 05:52 | mornfall | *sigh* OSX |
| 05:54 | You can't win, it's either win32 or osx that has to break. | |
| 05:55 | Can anyone with OSX try if date -f "now-350days" works on there? Or something equivalent... | |
| 05:56 | Implementing date arithmetic in bash would be stupid. | |
| 06:02 | twb | date isn't bash |
| 06:03 | lispy | $ date -f "now-350days" |
| 06:03 | usage: date [-jnu] [-d dst] [-r seconds] [-t west] [-v[+|-]val[ymwdHMS]] ... | |
| 06:03 | [-f fmt date | [[[mm]dd]HH]MM[[cc]yy][.ss]] [+format] | |
| 06:03 | twb | Does OS X have /usr/gnu/bin/date or similar? ;-) |
| 06:03 | Stupid shitty BSD userlands... | |
| 06:04 | mornfall | Well, all I need is a date "bit less than year ago". |
| 06:04 | In the testsuite. | |
| 06:05 | The other option is probably doing it in Haskell.... | |
| 06:05 | twb | you probably don't have @<epoch time> either |
| 06:06 | lispy | $ date -v -350d |
| 06:06 | Mon Jun 22 23:06:34 PDT 2009 | |
| 06:06 | mornfall | \o/ |
| 06:07 | Is that documented at all? (D'oh...) | |
| 06:07 | lispy | yeah, man date |
| 06:07 | mornfall | Ok, thanks. |
| 06:07 | lispy | "There's a mandate?" |
| 06:08 | * lispy | >>= bed |
| 06:08 | mornfall | Night. |
| 06:08 | twb | That format isn't valid in GNU date |
| 06:09 | mornfall | twb: Obviously, but I can do some if-ing and kicking to get a date out of either. |
| 06:09 | twb | OK |
| 06:09 | mornfall | lispy: (Does it also work with +fmt?) |
| 06:09 | lispy | you mean, +350d? |
| 06:09 | if so, yes | |
| 06:09 | mornfall | With date -v -350d +%Y%m%d |
| 06:10 | lispy | oh, yes |
| 06:10 | mornfall | Ok, thanks. |
| 06:10 | lispy | 20090622 |
| 06:10 | mornfall | Zuper. |
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| 08:40 | sxs | hi |
| 08:40 | why is it possable to push a patch more than one time into a repo? | |
| 08:41 | twb | Define "more than one time" |
| 08:41 | push should be idempotent for any given patch. | |
| 08:41 | (Note that amend and rollback, at least, actually create entirely new patches.) | |
| 08:41 | sxs | and wenn the patch differs? |
| 08:42 | hm, yes i think its a problem of the amending | |
| 08:43 | we have an integration repo. and we have the rule, that any developer must push to tghis repo bevor we deploy. sometimes a developer changes his patch and forget to unpull his patch befor pushing again. | |
| 08:43 | then we have the patch twice in the repo | |
| 08:45 | kowey joined #darcs | |
| 08:45 | kowey | morning |
| 08:45 | twb | sxs: the solution is basically: don't do that, then |
| 08:47 | kowey | a good rule to implement would be once you've pushed to that integration repo (just skimmed the chat log), no more amending or unpulling |
| 08:47 | twb | Yep |
| 08:48 | To help me, what I usually do is record patches with the name "DRAFT: foo" until they're ready to push | |
| 08:48 | kowey | you can also check to see if it's safe to amend a particular patch by doing darcs push --dry-run |
| 08:48 | twb | And tell amend-record to only match 'name DRAFT and author Trent' |
| 08:48 | kowey: yeah, but that's a pain in the arse | |
| 08:48 | kowey | the DRAFT technique is pretty handy too |
| 08:49 | twb | It's a bit of a bodge, but it Works For MeTM |
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| 08:50 | kowey | it's conceivable that there be a feature request for darcs amend --against-repo X |
| 08:51 | twb | More generally, it's an argument for Darcs knowing about more than just a single branch of a single repo |
| 08:51 | kowey | which would either not let you amend patches already in X, or offer to record a new one |
| 08:51 | twb | It's unlikely that I'd ever use an --against-repo argument |
| 08:52 | If patch metadata had some kind of "published" bit, I might use push --set-publish | |
| 08:52 | gal_bolle | i'm not sure what you're talking about, but I think a "in [repo]" matcher would be very useful |
| 08:52 | kowey | http://bugs.darcs.net/issue1613 for reference (feature request for a notion of patch annotations) |
| 08:52 | gal_bolle | so that you can say darcs amend --match "not in upstream" or darcs unpull --match "in upstream" |
| 08:53 | kowey | gal_bolle: I'm trying to think of the scenario "is it safe for me to amend this patch?" |
| 08:53 | sxs | we are using special IDs for our Patches like 2347_1 which means first patch fir jobticket 2347 |
| 08:53 | gal_bolle | kowey that would be the use case for my 'in' matcher, then |
| 08:53 | kowey | gal_bolle: you can check manually by doing darcs push --dry-run (only amend *those* patches) |
| 08:53 | gal_bolle | k |
| 08:53 | sxs | is there something like a hash which identifies a patch unique? so that i can compare twho patches with same name if they differ? |
| 08:54 | gal_bolle | kowey: darcs is supposed to let you express the right thing, not manually do things |
| 08:54 | kowey | gal_bolle: but I was trying to see if there was a way Darcs could be safer/more automatic |
| 08:54 | jinx :-) | |
| 08:54 | gal_bolle | i think --match "in" is the darcsishly smart |
| 08:55 | (not addition of external knowledge, but lets you express the safety you want, orthogonal and symmetric) | |
| 08:55 | kowey | it'd involve some changes to the match infrastructure, presumably, but that's no reason not to do it... |
| 08:56 | sxs: yes, see http://wiki.darcs.net/Hashes | |
| 08:56 | gal_bolle | that's something i'd volunteer to implement |
| 08:57 | kowey | sxs: if you amend a patch, the patch info hash will change because the date changes (and maybe the patch salt, but I forget) |
| 09:04 | sxs | another problem is, why we do a lot of amending is that darcs slows down on a large amount of patches :/ |
| 09:04 | gal_bolle | in the interactive selection? |
| 09:05 | with what command/options? | |
| 09:05 | sxs | i never tested, I'm new in the company. But my boss told that it was neccessary to join some old patches (few thousand patches) to one big patch |
| 09:06 | i know this phenomenon from SVN. above a view thousand commits the whole system slows down | |
| 09:06 | gal_bolle | i'm not sure I understand what you want to do |
| 09:07 | you want to unrecord a bunch of old patches and re-record them together? | |
| 09:09 | twb | I think Darcs is likely to have more problems with a thousands-of-lines commit than a thousand small commits. |
| 09:14 | sxs | I did not remember how my boss "merges" the patches. but what iI can see everyday is that darcs is not tthat fast on large repos witch > 10.000 patches |
| 09:14 | so we are adviced from our boss to make large patches than a lot of small ones | |
| 09:14 | kowey | it's a good idea to tag fairly regularly (for example, the darcs team do so on every release) |
| 09:14 | gal_bolle | what command[s] do you experience slowness with? |
| 09:15 | kowey | (but yes, this is very useful performance report, thanks!) |
| 09:15 | twb | And to use darcs-2 format instead of old-fashioned |
| 09:16 | sxs | i usualy use pull/push/get (i'm something like release manager) i use record seldom |
| 09:16 | we are using darcs-2 format | |
| 09:16 | but an older version of darcs | |
| 09:16 | 2.2.0 | |
| 09:17 | gal_bolle | do you pull/cherry-pick from repositories with lots of new patches? |
| 09:17 | twb | I doubt performance has increased drastically between 2.2 and 2.4 |
| 09:19 | sxs | gal_bolle: not really. What I do: I have a jobticket (eg. 42). Then i pick all patches from the developer which did the ticket (42_1, 42_2 etc.) amd push it to alpha, then testing, then push to beta, testing a.s.o. |
| 09:20 | twb | Here, each ticket would normally only get one or two patches |
| 09:20 | sxs | the biggest problem IMHO is the lack of practice with distributed VCS :( |
| 09:20 | gal_bolle | do you pull them from a repository that has only these patches, or one that has all the programmer's work? |
| 09:20 | sxs | gal_bolle: from one that has all the programmers work |
| 09:20 | gal_bolle | ok |
| 09:21 | twb | But we also test each ticket being fixed in its own branch, before pushing to a central area |
| 09:21 | So usually if it's obviously wrong (e.g. fails to compile), it would be amended, rather than making a new patch | |
| 09:22 | gal_bolle | is it the interactive pull or the application that is slow? (do you wait a long time before you are asked about the patches, or after, or both?) |
| 09:22 | (or for each patch you get asked about) | |
| 09:24 | mornfall | twb: It has improved drastically between 2.4 and 2.5-to-be-alpha, though. :) |
| 09:24 | sxs | it takes time before it askes my first time. its like dars thinks a lot about something and then starts asking for each patch |
| 09:24 | gal_bolle | ok, then it could get better in 2.5 |
| 09:25 | sxs | twb: yes of course. alpha/beta is for in the wild test. We are dirty PHP-Hackers ;) alpha/beta means that our real customers test the usability |
| 09:25 | twb | That's "integration testing" |
| 09:25 | gal_bolle | sxs: do you use --match? |
| 09:25 | twb | And I'd say that if you're using PHP, you're probably screwed no matter what you do with Darcs. |
| 09:26 | sxs | twb: Really? I thought it was acceptance test, when beta users test the usability etc. |
| 09:26 | mornfall | :) |
| 09:26 | sxs | gal_bolle: no, i'm not so familiar with darcs. what can --match do for me? |
| 09:26 | twb | integration tests happen after unit tests and before acceptance tests |
| 09:27 | gal_bolle | you can use it to pre-sort the patches you're going to pull |
| 09:27 | mornfall | and after functional tests, presumably |
| 09:27 | I'd say pre-filter. | |
| 09:27 | (About match...) | |
| 09:27 | twb | Depends on your definition of function. If you're testing each procedure individually, that would go with/before unit testing. |
| 09:27 | sxs | twb: Yes, we are screwed. but you can't change the language after the project runs for 10 years :/ i dont like PHP. |
| 09:27 | gal_bolle | for instance, you can say darcs pull --match "author joe" to pull joe's patches |
| 09:28 | it's prefiltering | |
| 09:28 | twb | sxs: you could always go flip burgers. You might be poor, but at least you wouldn't hate yourself |
| 09:28 | mornfall | twb: wp functional testing (they seem to call it "system testing" though...) |
| 09:28 | It also seems that I misunderstand what "integration testing" means. :D | |
| 09:29 | sxs | mornfall: these are all buzzwords :P |
| 09:29 | match an author would be an interesting thin. | |
| 09:29 | twb | mornfall: integration means "did all the bits fit together?" |
| 09:29 | mornfall | twb: Yes, but I sort of expected integration of the product with outer world. |
| 09:29 | twb | mornfall: like, suppose you test the jet engine and the wing separately (unit tests), and then you connect them together and test both at once (integration). |
| 09:30 | mornfall | It's all fuzzy. |
| 09:30 | I distinguish unit testing (Darcs.Patch.Core) and functional testing (darcs executable). | |
| 09:31 | tests/* is functional, QC and HUnit are unit | |
| 09:32 | It seems that integration testing is just unit testing of bigger units. It would, in this analogy, test that Darcs.Patch works with Darcs.Repository or somesuch. | |
| 09:32 | sxs | IMHO unittesting tests a unit (class, method, function package) whatever you define as unit. functional testing: you test the whole functionality (in scrum speak the story). Integration tests are tests like unittests without mocking, through the whole system. Acceptance tests are enduser tests. |
| 09:37 | gal_bolle | sxs: with current HEAD, in an empty repository, pulling from the ghc darcs repository starts asking me questions right away (there's a ~ 2s network delay, then it starts). Then selecting a few patches and applying them is reasonably fast |
| 09:43 | sxs | hm. ok. the "performance" is not our real problem. as mentioned above: our biggest problem is that the most developers are not familiar with distributed vcs. the most arent familiar with an stupid tool like svn :/ |
| 09:44 | and i try to make some tools/rules to prohibit fuckups | |
| 09:44 | how can i display the patchs hash? | |
| 09:44 | mornfall | darcs chan --xml |
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| 09:45 | sxs | ahhhh |
| 09:45 | thx | |
| 09:46 | is this from darcs? <comment>Ignore-this: e27fd9b3e49a02dd18946ecdccb2852f</comment> | |
| 09:46 | we do not use the long comment | |
| 09:48 | twb | sxs: yes. It's there specifically to annoy me. |
| 09:49 | sxs | so darcs insert this ignor-this-foo, unless i input a long comment |
| 09:51 | gal_bolle | it does it whether or not there is a long comment. But darcs 2.3+ (i thin does not display it |
| 09:52 | twb | sxs: it always inserts it |
| 10:13 | kowey | resolve issue8917: annoy Trent |
| 10:14 | it's actually there for safety reasons | |
| 10:14 | I'm not happy about it being generated from random noise, but we don't yet have the time to make it non-random | |
| 10:32 | twb | It's because normal people value functionality over beauty. |
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| 11:01 | mornfall | Some tests failed: |
| 11:01 | issue1210-no-global-cache-in-sources.sh | |
| 11:01 | (win32) | |
| 11:01 | lambdabot: @tell abuiles issue1210 test fails on Windows, see http://buildbot.darcs.net/buil[…]s/test/logs/stdio | |
| 11:01 | lambdabot | Consider it noted. |
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| 14:48 | abuiles | mornfall, I was afraid of that one.. |
| 14:48 | lambdabot | abuiles: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. |
| 15:06 | abuiles left #darcs | |
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| 16:22 | kowey | mornfall: hmm, this looks interesting re windows and filepaths, http://www.haskell.org/piperma[…]-June/062919.html (but sounds like what you already know) |
| 16:32 | on that thread, Judah also pointed to System.Console.Haskeline.Directory | |
| 16:33 | ...wonder if it could make our lives a bit easier... http://code.haskell.org/haskel[…]ine/Directory.hsc | |
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| 18:51 | abuiles | mornfall, are the test in windows run under cygwin ? |
| 18:58 | tux_rocker joined #darcs | |
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| 19:09 | Topic for #darcsis now can't talk? see -> | http://wiki.darcs.net/IRC | http://darcs.net/ | latest is 2.4.4 | |
| 19:11 | tux_rocker | there's 278 unread emails in my "darcs" folder |
| 19:11 | hmmm | |
| 19:11 | how do you approach all the mail coming down the darcs-devel and darcs-users pipes? | |
| 19:12 | how do you filter it? what do you read, and what do you leave for others to handle? | |
| 19:12 | Heffalump | I just don't read it :-) |
| 19:27 | mornfall | abuiles: No. |
| 19:28 | kowey | tux_rocker: you're the 3rd Darcs hacker to say that! |
| 19:29 | hmm | |
| 19:30 | so darcs-devel is pretty much something that can be automatically filed away | |
| 19:30 | it's kind of useful to see the subject line pass by and have it seep into your unconscious, imho | |
| 19:32 | abuiles | mornfall, I amend the patch, I'm skipping the test in windows. |
| 19:32 | hi kowey | |
| 19:32 | kowey | is it clear yet why it fails under Windows? |
| 19:33 | abuiles | I think is because the location of the global cache. in windows is not $HOME. |
| 19:33 | kowey | so why does the the ${HOME} entry appear in the cache at all? |
| 19:33 | mornfall | abuiles: That shouldn't matter. |
| 19:34 | cache:/c/buildbot/darcs/6.10.3 Vista/build/tests-darcs-2.dir/.darcs/cache | |
| 19:34 | This should not be in the sources. | |
| 19:34 | And it is, on win32... why? | |
| 19:35 | abuiles | so, it wasn't what I was thinking... |
| 19:36 | that cache shouldn't be there... | |
| 19:36 | kowey | tux_rocker: if I may make the suggestion, two key things to watch out for are (a) things assigned to you [should be to:you specifically] and (b) DWN - so you have a general sense of what's going on |
| 19:36 | tux_rocker | kowey: i thought of those already, yeah |
| 19:37 | kowey | threaded mail may help too |
| 19:37 | the information overload problem worries me :-/ | |
| 19:37 | tux_rocker | kowey: threaded mail in gmail helps |
| 19:37 | but then i'm not sure if i like web-based email | |
| 19:38 | kowey | I use gmail via mutt, personally |
| 19:38 | but I'm grumpy that way :-) | |
| 19:38 | tux_rocker | KMail, which I use on the desktop, has threaded mail but screws it up |
| 19:38 | kowey | sup provides gmail-style conversations with a nice text-based interface |
| 19:38 | mornfall | Hm. I just finished Gobliiins. :) |
| 19:38 | tux_rocker | afaik you can't sort by most recent post in thread, so you may have new email all the way down there in the list |
| 19:39 | mornfall | kowey: But sup is no longer a MUA. |
| 19:39 | kowey | that's one of the things my mutt config does, fwiw -- I suspect that sup would be configurable in that sense too |
| 19:39 | mornfall | But, I am on gnus which is primarily NNTP and it does good job threading. But you first need to be Emacs user for that to make any sense. |
| 19:39 | kowey | mornfall: mmm? you mean in the do only one thing well sense or something else? |
| 19:39 | mornfall | kowey: I mean that the author decided he likes to work on a document storage system more than on a MUA. |
| 19:40 | balor joined #darcs | |
| 19:40 | mornfall | kowey: So I think they drop'd IMAP and similar stuff and are working on non-MUA features. |
| 19:41 | kowey | hmm, interesting |
| 19:41 | I'm not sure what MUA features I care about (or what non-MUA features I don't care about) enough to see the implications of this | |
| 19:41 | tux_rocker: another trick I use, although you already get this for free with gmail, is just to have one folder called 'archive' | |
| 19:42 | without trying to be clever about organising mail | |
| 19:42 | this reduces the friction involved in getting things out of that inbox (I could go on all day, so should probably stop before people start throwing things at me) | |
| 19:43 | there's this http://producingoss.com/en/common-pitfalls.html which I may need to be more worried about | |
| 19:44 | mornfall | There’s another convenient benefit to this transformation: no one will expect STS to act like a MUA. STS does its own storage. You add your email and your other documents to the server and then you can throw those files away (or not). There are no more questions of supporting IMAP or various mbox dialects or “why doesn’t Sup treat Maildir correctly”. The files are in STS, and once they’re their, they’re out of your hands. |
| 19:44 | kowey: ^^ This, here. | |
| 19:45 | So sup is out of question for me, as long as I do not want to lock myself in. IMAP it is. | |
| 19:45 | kowey | oh :-/ |
| 19:45 | I think I have many other reasons to use Maildir (for example), eg. Unison | |
| 19:45 | oh well! no sup for me | |
| 19:46 | mornfall | Hm. About RM-ing. |
| 19:47 | kowey | [actually, the 'one-archive-folder' thing is a lie; I have procmail squirrel away everything that goes to a mailing list (except darcs) to lists/foo] |
| 19:47 | yeah, about RM-ing | |
| 19:47 | mornfall | I think a good RM will actively fix stuff that's broken for release. Win32 and OSX included. |
| 19:47 | And that needs a lot of knowledge. | |
| 19:47 | The experience is that if RM does not step up, no-one does. | |
| 19:48 | kowey | so we need a darcs-hacking RM? |
| 19:48 | mornfall | Well... |
| 19:48 | The catch is, that darcs as a team is very liberal. | |
| 19:49 | And you can't command people around. | |
| 19:49 | And release-fixing is boring. | |
| 19:49 | So being RM mostly means volunteering to do that boring stuff. | |
| 19:50 | Sense of responsibility for a release is probably one of the few things that can move hackers to do that work. | |
| 19:50 | (And any amount of prodding from RM is unlikely to...) | |
| 19:50 | kowey | well, the RM prodding is mostly an admin thing |
| 19:50 | mornfall | At least as long as your RM sits a few countries away from you. |
| 19:51 | kowey | in the sense of preventing deadlock or things falling through the cracks, etc |
| 19:51 | you need somebody with sort of a global picture of the release state | |
| 19:53 | OK, so a good RM should be willing to fix near-release bugs? | |
| 19:53 | mornfall | Well, you know it's not an easy job. There's a reason no-one on the review team wants it. |
| 19:54 | kowey | well, so if RM is the kind of job that nobody wants, then I should definitely take it |
| 19:54 | but this means that something else has to give | |
| 19:54 | (or maybe not, maybe I'm being too pessimistic) | |
| 19:54 | mornfall | I think managing issues is the same bag. |
| 19:54 | Just different work. | |
| 19:54 | kowey | just a different kind of nobody wants to do it? |
| 19:54 | mornfall | Yeah. :) |
| 19:55 | Unless you are a gardener, managing a bugtracker is the definition of boring. | |
| 19:55 | RM-ing is probably less boring but more stressful and quite unrewarding. | |
| 19:55 | kowey | I can more or less keep on top of that, although what tends to happen is that something will distract me and I'll forget |
| 19:56 | the IM stuff would be fine (IMHO) if I could just make a daily habit of it | |
| 19:56 | mornfall | Well, one option is to diffuse the RM duties to the review team as a whole. |
| 19:56 | kowey | OK, but if we do that, how do we make sure things still get done? |
| 19:57 | mornfall | Well, the same as if we had a dummy RM. :) |
| 19:57 | kowey | so responsibilities include: pulling to stable (who makes the call), making freeze announcements, writing ChangeLog entries |
| 19:57 | abuiles | well, I dunno what's going on with that in windows, I will build it there, and see why is the globalcache being saved. |
| 19:57 | kowey | in a sense, we've already automated a good chunk of the work - I think we're at a point where we can copy+paste much of the freeze announcements, for example |
| 19:58 | abuiles: yeah, if you have a windows machine on hand, that'd be a good step | |
| 19:58 | abuiles: this is actually good OS experience in the sense of getting a good intuitive grasp of why projects seem to always overrun :-) | |
| 19:58 | mornfall | kowey: Well, we could adopt a slightly different process... |
| 19:58 | kowey | OS here meaning open source |
| 19:58 | * kowey | listens |
| 19:59 | abuiles | kowey: I have a virtual, but building darcs is giving me a headache.. |
| 19:59 | kowey | it's not just install haskell platform and cabal install -f-curl? |
| 19:59 | mornfall | kowey: Say, stable needs 2 review team ACKs (mainline needs just one). |
| 20:00 | kowey | heh, we could use David's pull --intersection idea |
| 20:00 | mornfall | kowey: Reviewers also get a veto on stable inclusion, which if raised will seek consensus. |
| 20:00 | kowey: that's technicality | |
| 20:01 | We can do that if communication turns out to be problematic. | |
| 20:01 | Anyway, the other thing is freeze plan. | |
| 20:01 | kowey | is that pretty much just automatic anyway? |
| 20:01 | mornfall | I guess we can just use the template I started a while back. |
| 20:01 | kowey | we want to release by X, so we just go for X-7, etc? |
| 20:01 | mornfall | Yeah, something like that. |
| 20:02 | * tux_rocker | sees an interesting discussion but goes to bed anyway because he even has to vote before going to work tomorrow |
| 20:02 | kowey | http://wiki.darcs.net/Developm[…]ReleaseManagement is current discussion |
| 20:02 | good night! | |
| 20:02 | mornfall | Night. |
| 20:02 | kowey | s/discussion/version/ |
| 20:03 | abuiles | kowey: yeap the -f-curl saved me for going nuts :0, and stop me for hating more windows.. :) |
| 20:04 | mornfall | kowey: Well, even a bit differently. |
| 20:04 | kowey: We should set soft freeze as the date of the last alpha release. | |
| 20:04 | kowey | now that we're planning on alphas |
| 20:05 | mornfall | I think that alpha happens when the respective tag gets pushed onto mainline (usual rules applying -- one RT member needs to send it, another needs to push it...). |
| 20:06 | Someone can then make and upload tarballs to Hackage or something. | |
| 20:06 | Is there a reason to have non-hackage tars somewhere? | |
| 20:06 | kowey | ...just a quick aside... shall I still try to recruit an RM while we think about this? |
| 20:07 | mornfall | I don't know. What do you think? |
| 20:07 | kowey | I don't really think so; we could just make darcs.net point to hackage, but it's the same tarball anyway and seems to cost nothing |
| 20:07 | mornfall | I think that anyone outside of the review team is not qualified enough for a darcs RM. |
| 20:09 | kowey | so there are some things like uploading tarballs and writing ChangeLogs that don't actually require that much experience |
| 20:09 | mornfall | Well, you still need to know what you are talking about when writing changelog summary. |
| 20:09 | kowey | and also the admin side of things (keeping on top of things) |
| 20:10 | that's true (one thing the RM has to be careful to do is to distinguish regressions since last release from actual bug fixes) | |
| 20:10 | 140 bugs fixed! :-) | |
| 20:10 | mornfall | admin side can go with you as the issue manager -- just keeping the Target-X.Y bits around should do |
| 20:10 | We should have a policy that release X.Y happens when there have been no open Target-X.Y bugs for a week. | |
| 20:11 | kowey | it's interesting actually |
| 20:11 | policy is a form of automation | |
| 20:11 | mornfall | So I guess the Issue Manager should hold the semaphore lights for a given release. |
| 20:11 | tux_rocker | mornfall: are you inventing this here or has this worked for some projects? |
| 20:12 | kowey: i'd say policy is a form of laziness | |
| 20:12 | and btw, i'm still assuming i'll have to release-manage the 2.5 release | |
| 20:12 | mornfall | tux_rocker: I am improvising a bit. I do take inspiration from working projects, though. |
| 20:12 | kowey | maybe this needs to become a wider discussion (with some steering) on the list |
| 20:12 | not to add to everybody's information overload though | |
| 20:13 | mornfall | I guess we can have an informal vote among reviewers (not trying to form cabals). |
| 20:13 | kowey | well, we want to be very very careful that things happen in public |
| 20:13 | because it's very easy to give people the impression of forming a cabal even if unintentional | |
| 20:13 | mornfall | Well, *this* is public. |
| 20:14 | kowey | right |
| 20:14 | mornfall | There's a line somewhere in involving the wider community. |
| 20:14 | kowey | but this is fundamental project governance, right? seems like a pretty big deal |
| 20:15 | (steering would mean making sure we have a quite well specced plan first so that the discussion doesn't derail) | |
| 20:15 | mornfall | I would say that an announcement would be adequate. |
| 20:15 | All the former RMs are on review team, I think? | |
| 20:16 | kowey | unless you want to count Tommy P |
| 20:16 | who was the darcs-stable maintainer back in the day | |
| 20:16 | mornfall | Right. And David. |
| 20:16 | kowey | yeah |
| 20:16 | well, everybody who was an RM served on the equivalent of the review team at the time | |
| 20:18 | OK, so it looks like the worst case scenario is that we don't figure this out in time for 2.5, which means Reinier does the job | |
| 20:18 | mornfall | Actually I don't even think that we need a discussion, nor an announcement. |
| 20:18 | We can just make things happen and discuss along the way. | |
| 20:18 | Whatever needs discussing. | |
| 20:18 | kowey | and so far the alternatives are to (A) try and recruit somebody or (B) switch to a more split up model |
| 20:20 | mornfall | Afterall, if we appointed an RM, who would be making that decision? |
| 20:20 | kowey | I really hate noise, but I think it's important that things be discussed |
| 20:20 | ultimately it's still a dictatorship (answering your question) | |
| 20:21 | but it's critical that things do not appear to just happen by fiat | |
| 20:22 | so it's not that the wider community gets a vote | |
| 20:22 | it's more that they should feel like they can influence the thought process | |
| 20:23 | mornfall | I don't know. |
| 20:23 | Have you noticed, about the alpha? | |
| 20:24 | I like when things happen like that. | |
| 20:24 | kowey | what do you mean? |
| 20:24 | mornfall | It was never discussed on darcs-users@. |
| 20:25 | kowey | that's true; it was discussed in Zurich among devs |
| 20:25 | same with things like the default switches | |
| 20:26 | mornfall | If the discussion wants to happen, it will, even if we don't start it. |
| 20:26 | If people are unhappy about review team governance, they will tell us about it, presumably. | |
| 20:27 | kowey | yeah, I definitely appreciate your low-friction, anti-BS, anti bureaucracy, high-efficiency point of view |
| 20:28 | but I have a sort of fuzzier way of looking at things which I have a very hard time explaining clearly (sorry!) | |
| 20:28 | where it's important in the bigger-picture, longer-term that certain things happen, even if they seem inefficient in the short term | |
| 20:28 | mornfall | You would be a sucky dictator, you mean? :) |
| 20:29 | kowey | I don't think most dictators feel the need to apologise when they get out the Iron Fist... |
| 20:29 | * kowey | is too much of a hippie |
| 20:31 | kowey | OK, I need to go be unproductive for a while... hopefully tonight all this stuff will churn in our heads and turn into sensible action tomorrow |
| 20:31 | good night! | |
| 20:31 | mornfall | I leave tomorrow morning. |
| 20:31 | Be back on weekend or so. | |
| 20:31 | Try to shuffle it in your head, turn down the hippie-ness and such. | |
| 20:32 | kowey | ok, I *may* end up starting a discussion (and being careful to make sure I get your position across clearly) |
| 20:32 | the good news is you can miss it! | |
| 20:32 | mornfall | It's great to have political speeches in front of darcs-users@, but don't overdo it. |
| 20:32 | Oh, I certainly will. And I'll do what I please no matter its result. | |
| 20:33 | kowey | (oh, I meant as in the timing, like you can come back on the weekend and just select the whole thread in one swoop) |
| 20:33 | gh_ joined #darcs | |
| 20:33 | kowey | but, err yeah... we'll work something out |
| 20:34 | mornfall | Yes, I understood. |
| 20:34 | kowey | k |
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| 20:42 | Heffalump | gal_bolle: rebase won't be in 2.5 |
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| 20:53 | abuiles | mornfall, I just run the test in my windows machine and passed . |
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| 21:30 | zooko | I wish for a darcs plugin for |
| 21:30 | Hudson. | |
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