| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:43 |
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| 01:03 |
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| 01:12 |
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| 02:06 |
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| 02:25 |
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| 02:28 |
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| 03:26 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: one thing we might need to do is figure out what RULES are baked into GHC for lists and port them to FL/RL |
| 03:26 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: it's entirely possible, our custom lists are a huge pain performance wise |
| 03:28 |
|
lispy |
?tell exlevan if you're having trouble with the type witnesses, I can help. |
| 03:28 |
|
lambdabot |
Consider it noted. |
| 03:37 |
|
zooko |
The Tahoe-LAFS project is about to start using bzr in addition to darcs because GHC isn't ported to OpenBSD/sparc64 but Python is. |
| 03:39 |
|
lispy |
zooko: it's been ported to OpenSolaris |
| 03:39 |
|
lispy |
zooko: are you sure it's not on OpenBSD? |
| 03:39 |
|
lispy |
and why bzr instead of mercurial? |
| 03:40 |
|
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twb joined #darcs |
| 03:40 |
|
zooko |
Because someone will volunteer to support the darcs->bzr updater and because then Tahoe-LAFS can be automatically built nightly for Ubuntu packaging and integrated into Launchpad. |
| 03:40 |
|
zooko |
I'm sure GHC doesn't support the platform. |
| 03:41 |
|
zooko |
Hm, I would show you the ticket, but http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc isn't responding. |
| 03:43 |
|
lispy |
hackage is down |
| 03:43 |
|
lispy |
http://www.mail-archive.com/gl[…]org/msg23780.html |
| 03:43 |
|
lispy |
zooko: but, the code gen has now been ported |
| 03:44 |
|
lispy |
That ticket is old, before the port I think |
| 03:44 |
|
lispy |
Igloo: can you confirm? |
| 03:44 |
|
zooko |
Yes, that's the ticket. |
| 03:46 |
|
lispy |
Right at 5pm our internet went out at work, hackage has been down since then |
| 03:46 |
|
lispy |
I speculate that the construction workers in the building broke the phones/internet, but I can't say for sure |
| 03:48 |
|
|
sshc joined #darcs |
| 03:51 |
|
zooko |
It would be great if this buildslave could start participating in building Tahoe-LAFS: http://tahoe-lafs.org/buildbot[…]20OpenBSD-sparc64 |
| 03:55 |
|
twb |
lispy: solar flares! |
| 04:22 |
|
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| 04:38 |
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| 04:59 |
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| 05:04 |
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| 05:15 |
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| 06:58 |
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| 07:00 |
|
burp |
bbbbbbbbbbbbbb |
| 07:00 |
|
burp |
oops |
| 07:02 |
|
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| 07:03 |
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| 07:24 |
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| 07:37 |
|
mornfall |
*yawn* |
| 07:37 |
|
mornfall |
Finally some substantial sleep. |
| 07:51 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: I tried switching the parser monad to a CPS style with church encoded Maybe, but it slowed it down. |
| 07:52 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: I tried adding strategic bang patterns, but it slowed it down. |
| 07:53 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: Using data a :*: b = !a :*: !b, instead of (,) makes it about 10 ms faster on massive input (meaning, it's negligible) |
| 07:54 |
|
mornfall |
Interesting. |
| 07:54 |
|
mornfall |
Do you have the benchmarks? I'd be interested to have a look. |
| 07:54 |
|
lispy |
I haven't really been saving them just because they're not faster |
| 07:55 |
|
lispy |
Or do you mean the means by which I experiment? |
| 07:55 |
|
mornfall |
Yea. |
| 07:55 |
|
mornfall |
(The code.) |
| 07:56 |
|
* mornfall |
disappears in a shower for a bit, while the rice's cooking... |
| 08:00 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: darcs get http://code.haskell.org/~dagit/darcs-parser |
| 08:00 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: Step 1) it reads from the file "patch" in the top level of the repo |
| 08:00 |
|
|
Gracenotes joined #darcs |
| 08:01 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: Step 2) it depends on the version 2.4.98.2 of the darcs library. I achieve this by bumping the version in the .cabal file of the version of darcs that Im testing with |
| 08:01 |
|
lispy |
so, once you edit the cabal file, you should be able to build/install darcs |
| 08:01 |
|
lispy |
Then, cabal clean && cabal configure && cabal build && ./dist/build/darcs-parser/darcs-parser |
| 08:02 |
|
lispy |
Note: You need to reclean after every modification to the darcs source, otherwise cabal won't properly relink the darcs-parser binary |
| 08:06 |
|
mornfall |
OK, thanks, I'll have a look. |
| 08:13 |
|
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JaffaCake joined #darcs |
| 08:37 |
|
lispy |
I think I just found the world's slowest compilation options for the darcs source |
| 08:37 |
|
lispy |
add -funfolding-use-threshold=16 -optc-O3 makes it really slow! |
| 08:41 |
|
twb |
WPO would be slower |
| 08:41 |
|
lispy |
WPO? |
| 08:41 |
|
twb |
whole-program optimization |
| 08:41 |
|
twb |
Normally optimization is only done within a translation unit |
| 08:41 |
|
mornfall |
twb: That's not entirely true. Inlining is cross-module. |
| 08:42 |
|
twb |
To WPO the (naïve) compiler needs to store the entire program in memory at once. |
| 08:42 |
|
twb |
mornfall: yeah, ok, hand-waving away details |
| 08:42 |
|
mornfall |
:D |
| 08:42 |
|
lispy |
yeah, GHC's optimizer isn't WPO or supercompilation (yet) but cross-module inlining is activated with -O and higher |
| 08:42 |
|
twb |
And I was mainly talking about C, not hs |
| 08:43 |
|
twb |
I remember there was a Scheme compiler that did whopr |
| 08:43 |
|
twb |
Er, WPO |
| 08:43 |
|
mornfall |
twb: :))) I do WPO in C++. It's called templates. |
| 08:43 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: oh hrm. Changing the compilation flags gives a big boost |
| 08:43 |
|
mornfall |
If your program is a template instantiation... |
| 08:43 |
|
lispy |
Well, the biggest boost I've seen |
| 08:43 |
|
twb |
It took nine days compiling itself, at which point my 3GHz P4 hit a thermal cutout and I gave up. |
| 08:43 |
|
mornfall |
:) |
| 08:44 |
|
twb |
stalin, that was its name |
| 08:44 |
|
mornfall |
twb: Dear lord. |
| 08:44 |
|
mornfall |
Oh! |
| 08:44 |
|
mornfall |
Yeah, stalin is cool. |
| 08:44 |
|
mornfall |
If by nothing else, the name. |
| 08:44 |
|
mornfall |
(And how it's fitting.) |
| 08:44 |
|
twb |
It was intended for schemers doing numerical analysis on big iron, I think |
| 08:44 |
|
twb |
Or something batshit insane along those lines |
| 08:44 |
|
mornfall |
That's even more fitting. |
| 08:45 |
|
mornfall |
Stalin goes great with big iron. |
| 08:45 |
|
twb |
It's still in Debian, if you care |
| 08:46 |
|
mornfall |
I know |
| 08:46 |
|
mornfall |
. |
| 08:46 |
|
lispy |
mean: 766.2472 ms, lb 757.0107 ms, ub 774.9432 ms, ci 0.950 down to mean: 705.9286 ms, lb 701.0311 ms, ub 710.6611 ms, ci 0.950 |
| 08:46 |
|
mornfall |
lispy: I'm not sure we want to go via-C though. |
| 08:47 |
|
mornfall |
We could hope for early LLVM merge, though. |
| 08:48 |
|
lispy |
I doubt the -optc-O3 one does anything. I think it's really the inlining thresshold at 16 that is making a big difference |
| 08:48 |
|
twb |
Wow, the .debian.diff.gz for stalin is 11MB |
| 08:48 |
|
lispy |
granted, I get to this mean: 736.6959 ms, lb 731.5933 ms, ub 741.7336 ms, ci 0.950 |
| 08:48 |
|
lispy |
just by using the :*: tuple |
| 08:48 |
|
mornfall |
twb: It's probably including last phase output. :D |
| 08:48 |
|
mornfall |
Post-opt, pre-codegen. |
| 08:49 |
|
mornfall |
Otherwise, buildd's would choke. |
| 08:49 |
|
twb |
Yep |
| 08:49 |
|
twb |
Fuck em |
| 08:50 |
|
mornfall |
From: debian debian.org Subject: [VAC] Stalin has been uploaded, archive suspended for a month. |
| 08:51 |
|
mornfall |
Another rollbaker. |
| 08:51 |
|
mornfall |
Amaran rocks. |
| 08:52 |
|
mornfall |
(Sorry I am still a bit incoherent post that filepath carnage.) |
| 08:52 |
|
lispy |
filepath carnage? |
| 08:54 |
|
mornfall |
lispy: See darcs-users@. I ripped out most of the path handling. |
| 08:54 |
|
mornfall |
I mean, ripped through. The paths are still handled. |
| 08:55 |
|
mornfall |
But they are bytestring-ish and have a safer interface. And there are no longer half-a-dozen incompatible path representations either. |
| 08:56 |
|
twb |
So there are half-a-dozen+1 now? ;-P |
| 08:56 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: [darcs-users] [patch343] First stab at a hashed-storage 0.6 port.(and 14 more) Petr Ro?kai ? |
| 08:57 |
|
mornfall |
That one yes. |
| 08:57 |
|
mornfall |
twb: They reduced to type Foo = Bar. |
| 08:59 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: One of the best things we can do to fix the pathing stuff is throw away our whitespace encoding/decoding |
| 09:00 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: it would be much better if paths were stored in some other form, such as <length of path><path> |
| 09:00 |
|
lispy |
So that you, do len <- readInt; fp <- take len; |
| 09:00 |
|
lispy |
and then fp is just done. No whitespace non-sense to deal with |
| 09:01 |
|
lispy |
(stored, I mean serialized) |
| 09:01 |
|
* lispy |
should be asleep |
| 09:03 |
|
mornfall |
lispy: That's true, but we can't change it without breaking formats. |
| 09:03 |
|
mornfall |
lispy: At which point we can throw out all of the parser and start over with a much simpler format. |
| 09:04 |
|
lispy |
mornfall: well, if I can get this parser stuff to a point where you won't be grumpy if I stop working on it the first item on my list is to write a Cereal instance for Named (FL Patch) |
| 09:05 |
|
mornfall |
cereal? :) |
| 09:05 |
|
lispy |
I can't spell |
| 09:05 |
|
mornfall |
No that's ok. |
| 09:05 |
|
mornfall |
I'm just wondering what it was. |
| 09:05 |
|
lispy |
http://hackage.haskell.org/package/cereal |
| 09:05 |
|
lispy |
It's a better version of binary |
| 09:06 |
|
lispy |
faster, stricture, more better |
| 09:06 |
|
mornfall |
Hackage's back. |
| 09:06 |
|
mornfall |
Lennart. :D |
| 09:06 |
|
lispy |
oh yeah, it is. I just used it without even thinking about it |
| 09:07 |
|
mornfall |
Storable is still faster, presumably. But you have to do nasty stuff that way. |
| 09:07 |
|
|
dons joined #darcs |
| 09:07 |
|
lispy |
I was thinking we could pretty easily modify the patch parser to be backwards compatible without things are now, but to also check for a 'magic number' sort of thing. IF the magic number is there it uses cereal to parse it instead of text based parsing |
| 09:07 |
|
mornfall |
(That's how _darcs/index is done -- pre-computed size, Storable poking into mmap...) |
| 09:08 |
|
lispy |
mmap is the devil |
| 09:08 |
|
mornfall |
Well, it's *fast*. |
| 09:08 |
|
lispy |
yeah, until it breaks |
| 09:08 |
|
lispy |
or you need to mmap something large |
| 09:08 |
|
mornfall |
True. But it doesn't seem to be breaking. |
| 09:08 |
|
mornfall |
It even seems to work on windows, most of the time. |
| 09:08 |
|
lispy |
the index might be fine. I'm worried about mmap patches though. |
| 09:09 |
|
mornfall |
Ok, that's a different story yes. :) |
| 09:09 |
|
lispy |
anyway, I need sleep |
| 09:09 |
|
mornfall |
Goodnight. :) |
| 09:57 |
|
|
kowey joined #darcs |
| 09:59 |
|
kowey |
good morning |
| 10:08 |
|
kowey |
latex2html -long_titles 2 will help our user doc stability (getting_started.html instead of node2.html) |
| 10:08 |
|
kowey |
now to fix the section names... |
| 10:14 |
|
|
Igloo__ joined #darcs |
| 10:17 |
|
mornfall |
Hmm! :) |
| 10:34 |
|
kowey |
"I am increasingly thinking that Darcs' set-of-patches model would work better for this than Git's DAG-of-commits model." |
| 10:34 |
|
kowey |
hmm, wonder what that's about http://lackingrhoticity.blogsp[…]-cl-rietveld.html [have not read, just scanned] |
| 10:48 |
|
* mornfall |
implements more neat features into cmdlib... |
| 10:48 |
|
mornfall |
(default command, possibility to disable the "help" command, option to not permute options and non-options) |
| 10:50 |
|
kowey |
why would disabling "help" be a good idea? |
| 10:51 |
|
mornfall |
if your commands start all with @ and non-@ things fall through to a default command which runs shell... |
| 10:51 |
|
mornfall |
(my current use-case... there may be others) |
| 11:00 |
|
mornfall |
kowey: Have you seen my arguably-cool patch for h-s 0.6 (and more importantly, path handling)? |
| 11:03 |
|
kowey |
not yet (aside from seeing the title), but hopefully we can chat more about it after my last meeting with abuiles |
| 11:04 |
|
mornfall |
When is that? (Not weekend this time, presumably?) |
| 11:16 |
|
kowey |
in about 45 min |
| 11:16 |
|
* kowey |
continues to unpile... |
| 11:18 |
|
mornfall |
Ah. |
| 11:19 |
|
kowey |
hmm, we may need to nail down our terminology for caches and sources a bit |
| 11:19 |
|
mornfall |
I also opened the path to help --manpage, since "help" is now a regular command (which gets a list of all commands, including itself :D). |
| 11:19 |
|
kowey |
ah, it used to be baked in? |
| 11:19 |
|
mornfall |
Yes. |
| 11:20 |
|
mornfall |
It does get added by default by the dispatcher, but you can say dispatch [NoHelp] to suppress that. And provide your own help command if you like. |
| 11:20 |
|
mornfall |
I guess not many people are going to use that, though. |
| 11:29 |
|
kowey |
(as an aside, I think I've mentioned hsgtd as a potential user, the small twist being its shell-like ui) |
| 11:30 |
|
mornfall |
Fortunately cmdlib works with [String] input and does not call getArgs itself. :) |
| 11:31 |
|
mornfall |
So you can just dispatch on whatever words and readline give you. |
| 11:32 |
|
kowey |
should try that, was blocked on cmdargs not accepting non-String for argpos args |
| 11:32 |
|
kowey |
although Neil's fixed that in his big rewrite |
| 11:34 |
|
mornfall |
Oh. |
| 11:34 |
|
mornfall |
I guess I can't do that either. :( |
| 11:35 |
|
mornfall |
It seemed tricky to do. |
| 11:35 |
|
kowey |
uh-oh! http://code.google.com/p/ndmit[…]ues/detail?id=221 |
| 11:36 |
|
kowey |
ah, so much adhoc command line handling in the haskell world to set alight (flamethrower) |
| 11:36 |
|
kowey |
whether the flamethrower be cmdargs or cmdlib, there's quite a bit of code to burn: twidge, cabal-install, ghc-pkg, hsgtd, criterion... |
| 11:37 |
|
mornfall |
cabal-install isn't going to fly |
| 11:37 |
|
kowey |
minimal deps required? |
| 11:37 |
|
mornfall |
it's using what Cabal provides which has to be very portable |
| 11:37 |
|
mornfall |
which rules out Data.Typeable, presumably |
| 11:37 |
|
kowey |
that would make sense |
| 11:38 |
|
mornfall |
(for Setup.hs) |
| 11:38 |
|
mornfall |
I mean, what Setup.hs uses is also what cabal-install uses, and the former needs to be portable. :) |
| 11:39 |
|
mornfall |
I'll have to look in parsing argpos-thingies. |
| 11:39 |
|
mornfall |
(I guess I call them Positional though.) |
| 11:40 |
|
mornfall |
(Maybe it's not so tricky afterall.) |
| 11:49 |
|
mornfall |
kowey: Fixed. |
| 11:50 |
|
mornfall |
(Will be in 0.2.) |
| 11:50 |
|
kowey |
not so tricky after all? |
| 11:52 |
|
mornfall |
Nope. Just needed to flip a set to a parse. |
| 11:52 |
|
mornfall |
(The only tricky bit was that parse had not been exported from the flag wrappers, which now is and all is good...) |
| 11:53 |
|
mornfall |
3-line patch overall. |
| 11:53 |
|
mornfall |
(I still consider positional arguments to be slightly gay. :P) |
| 11:55 |
|
|
abuiles joined #darcs |
| 11:55 |
|
abuiles |
hi |
| 11:55 |
|
abuiles |
kowey, hi |
| 11:57 |
|
kowey |
hey, abuiles |
| 11:57 |
|
kowey |
well! congratulations on a successful GSoC! |
| 11:57 |
|
kowey |
(and thanks for your kind words on the final blog post) |
| 11:58 |
|
abuiles |
thanks to you, It has been a nice experience :) |
| 11:59 |
|
kowey |
so any feedback for us on how we can improve the Darcs GSoC experience for 2011? |
| 12:00 |
|
* mornfall |
wonders how much truth's in that an adult man can live off a bowl of rice a day... already had two today and I'm fairly sure my balance is still negative |
| 12:00 |
|
mornfall |
(and it's just 2pm, too) |
| 12:01 |
|
kowey |
hmm, I suppose the size of the bowl could factor in |
| 12:01 |
|
mornfall |
Obviously. :D |
| 12:02 |
|
abuiles |
kowey, well, certainly mention about downloading the wiki ;), so is easier not to lose the changes... |
| 12:02 |
|
mornfall |
But mine isn't exactly tiny. If I fill it to the rim, it's probably a reasonable western meal (but we still get 3 a day or so). |
| 12:02 |
|
* kowey |
starts http://wiki.darcs.net/GoogleSu[…]/GuideForStudents |
| 12:03 |
|
mornfall |
kowey: It'd look much nicer if it was wiki.darcs.net/GSOC/Guide instead. |
| 12:03 |
|
mornfall |
GSoC if you like |
| 12:04 |
|
kowey |
hmm, yeah |
| 12:04 |
|
kowey |
I do wish gitit had a renaming mechanism for stability |
| 12:05 |
|
mornfall |
But thumbs up. Hopefully we have enough documentation by the start of next GSoC. |
| 12:05 |
|
abuiles |
kowey, your administrative thing should be a must follow for all the project... maybe linking to my project or mornfall's would be a good idea. |
| 12:05 |
|
kowey |
abuiles: interesting, what do you mean exactly? |
| 12:06 |
|
abuiles |
kowey, well, what we used to do with the weekly meeting and evaluate how much I was advancing, and giving percentages to each of the goals. |
| 12:07 |
|
abuiles |
I always wanted to keep all the goals in done, and I would feel mad at myself seeing 50%, 75% |
| 12:08 |
|
abuiles |
I think is more realistic to talk in terms of small goals, rather than a single goal ( which could have lots of small tasks). |
| 12:09 |
|
kowey |
so the weekly meeting and percentages thing is something we should continue doing, but with more well-defined goals? |
| 12:10 |
|
kowey |
or perhaps we should try something else? |
| 12:11 |
|
kowey |
I'm not sure students getting mad at themselves for not reaching targets is a good thing |
| 12:12 |
|
mornfall |
I also think we need a dual-mentoring scheme. |
| 12:12 |
|
mornfall |
I.e. every student gets Kowey and one other mentor. :) |
| 12:12 |
|
abuiles |
I think the weekly meeting is fine.. |
| 12:12 |
|
abuiles |
I don't mean mad as whipping myself.. maybe I choose the wrong word.. |
| 12:13 |
|
kowey |
:-) well, if you think it helped you to feel motivated, I'm reassured! |
| 12:13 |
|
abuiles |
thanks, that's the word, motivation. |
| 12:13 |
|
kowey |
there's different schools of thoughts on the whole goals thing, btw |
| 12:13 |
|
kowey |
and there's a romantic side of me that's a bit reluctant to apply it |
| 12:14 |
|
mornfall |
There seem to be interesting commonalities in English vocabularies of South American folks. |
| 12:14 |
|
kowey |
but I hope the overall model of weekly meetings when the mentor helps the student to define his own goals and track them is correct |
| 12:14 |
|
mornfall |
kowey: But you didn't apply it to me, did you? |
| 12:14 |
|
abuiles |
agree |
| 12:15 |
|
kowey |
I *might* have done a sort of primitive version of it in http://wiki.darcs.net/GoogleSu[…]fCode/2009-Hashed |
| 12:15 |
|
kowey |
although I think I was a lot more prescriptive then in the "please work on X" sense :-) |
| 12:15 |
|
abuiles |
I must admit that I needed more discipline, I failed with 3 blog entries :S |
| 12:16 |
|
abuiles |
kowey, but I'm sure you know how to handle that ;) |
| 12:16 |
|
kowey |
well, I appreciated the entries you did write :-) |
| 12:16 |
|
* mornfall |
replaces otb.sh with otb.hs. |
| 12:17 |
|
mornfall |
Seems to be working pretty well. |
| 12:18 |
|
mornfall |
Now I wanted to plug in a --monitor option right... inotify to the rescue. |
| 12:19 |
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| 12:19 |
|
abuiles1 |
sorry, ISP problems. |
| 12:21 |
|
kowey |
so, any more tips for us? |
| 12:22 |
|
* abuiles1 |
thinks |
| 12:27 |
|
abuiles1 |
kowey, I can't think of any other at the moment, the administrative side works fine for me as we did. I thought sometime as adding a 10 minutes meet in the middle of the week, maybe to resolve any doubts, but then I thought that's not necessary since you can always ask here and someone will help you |
| 12:28 |
|
kowey |
OK, well thanks for the advice so far and do let us know if something comes to mind :-) |
| 12:28 |
|
kowey |
so what's the future looking like for you? |
| 12:28 |
|
kowey |
lots of work at University? |
| 12:28 |
|
abuiles1 |
yeah, lots of readings |
| 12:29 |
|
abuiles1 |
and midterms coming next week. |
| 12:29 |
|
kowey |
already! |
| 12:29 |
|
abuiles1 |
well, next week will be one month since it started... |
| 12:30 |
|
abuiles1 |
also I must admit I can't understand still why Colombia's universities work so different to the rest of the world. |
| 12:30 |
|
abuiles1 |
kowey, I forgot to mention http://wiki.darcs.net/FAQ#does[…]t-after-x-seconds |
| 12:31 |
|
kowey |
ah yes, thanks! |
| 12:31 |
|
kowey |
hmm, I think we need a shorter URL for that |
| 12:31 |
|
abuiles1 |
in fact, someone was asking about that, last week. |
| 12:33 |
|
kowey |
nice! |
| 12:33 |
|
kowey |
how's http://wiki.darcs.net/FAQ#can-[…]the-darcs-timeout ? |
| 12:33 |
|
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| 12:33 |
|
kowey |
as for universities, I think I've seen quarter, trimester and semester based systems |
| 12:34 |
|
kowey |
and at least in the UK, people sometimes complaining about how crazy the scheduling of the breaks is |
| 12:34 |
|
kowey |
funny to see Real World complexities, something like timing University holidays being contingent on a bunch of random factors |
| 12:35 |
|
kowey |
like wanting kids to be available to work on the farm (in the past), or wanting to align with school holidays, etc |
| 12:43 |
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|
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| 12:43 |
|
* abuiles |
back |
| 12:43 |
|
abuiles |
kowey, seems better the new name. |
| 12:44 |
|
kowey |
thanks |
| 12:44 |
|
abuiles |
kowey, also here we have normally like 3 midterms of 25% |
| 12:44 |
|
kowey |
per year |
| 12:44 |
|
abuiles |
not semester |
| 12:45 |
|
abuiles |
the first semester is from january to end of may-beginning of jun, then from July to November. |
| 12:45 |
|
abuiles |
and undergraduate is 4 and half year :S |
| 12:47 |
|
abuiles |
kowey, I need to get ready for Uni, we'll talk next week.. |
| 12:48 |
|
kowey |
ok! see you then! (would be curious to hear about what darcs work you may fancy work on in your spare time) |
| 12:49 |
|
abuiles |
I'd like to work in the interface with curl. |
| 12:49 |
|
kowey |
:-) |
| 12:50 |
|
kowey |
ok, well, it was really nice to work with you this summer... gotta go do work myself. catch you later! |
| 12:51 |
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| 14:52 |
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| 14:55 |
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| 14:55 |
|
kowey |
issue1898 (the set-defaults notification) is surprisingly tricky |
| 14:56 |
|
kowey |
have discovered that the --remote-repo flag is not being fixed |
| 15:01 |
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| 15:01 |
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| 15:09 |
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| 15:34 |
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| 15:42 |
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mornfall |
Oh dear. Installing windows is such a chore..... |
| 15:42 |
|
mornfall |
Will do later. |
| 16:04 |
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| 16:05 |
|
jadrian |
I've never used a distributed revision control system... for solo projects (single author) would there be any advantages of using darcs over svn? |
| 16:07 |
|
kowey |
jadrian: have you ever used RCS? |
| 16:07 |
|
jadrian |
kowey, only cvs and svn |
| 16:07 |
|
kolmodin |
are there any severe bugs found in 2.4.98.2? |
| 16:07 |
|
lambdabot |
kolmodin: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. |
| 16:07 |
|
burp |
nah there is not a single advantage ;-) |
| 16:07 |
|
kowey |
jadrian: OK, RCS was a version control system that pre-dated CVS, right? [sorry, I'm being long-winded] |
| 16:07 |
|
jadrian |
kowey, I think I've heard of it |
| 16:08 |
|
kowey |
jadrian: ... but there was one thing about it that would keep me using it even in situations where I knew I "should" have been CVS |
| 16:08 |
|
kowey |
jadrian: and that was pure and simple laziness |
| 16:08 |
|
kowey |
I hated having to go through the hoops of setting up the central repository |
| 16:08 |
|
kowey |
hoops like thinking about where the right place for it would be, etc |
| 16:09 |
|
kowey |
so sometimes I'd be really really really lazy and just use RCS and feel kinda guilty about it the whole time |
| 16:09 |
|
kowey |
... |
| 16:09 |
|
jadrian |
I'm listening... |
| 16:09 |
|
kowey |
sorry, this is a really roundabout way to answer your question |
| 16:10 |
|
kowey |
one of the reasons I like distributed revision control systems is that on the one hand, they're a lot more powerful than the centralised ones (may be debatable...) |
| 16:10 |
|
kowey |
but on the other hand, they're a lot *easier* to use in some ways |
| 16:11 |
|
kowey |
with Darcs (same with Git, etc), I can have the convenience of just knocking out an instant-repo with darcs init (RCS-style convenience) |
| 16:11 |
|
kolmodin |
kowey: do I dare let my users test to use darcs-beta 2.4.98.2? :) I thought of adding it, but masked so that you have to explicitly require this version |
| 16:11 |
|
burp |
and it can be faster |
| 16:11 |
|
kowey |
but without the guilt, jadrian |
| 16:12 |
|
kowey |
dunno if this makes any sense? power and yet more convenience |
| 16:12 |
|
jadrian |
kowey, yes I was just looking for specifics... for instance I moved from cvs to svn mainly for one motive, renaming and moving files |
| 16:12 |
|
kowey |
*nod* |
| 16:13 |
|
kowey |
kolmodin: well, it is a beta... |
| 16:13 |
|
kowey |
but more testers would indeed be very welcome |
| 16:13 |
|
jadrian |
when I think about a distributed system for solo work it confuses me a bit |
| 16:13 |
|
kowey |
right, so what I'm saying is that distributed version control is even better for solo work than svn |
| 16:13 |
|
burp |
don't let the "distributed" disturb you |
| 16:13 |
|
jadrian |
right now I always commit and I know that the central repository contains my latest version |
| 16:13 |
|
kolmodin |
kowey: sure, but you have at least not found any dangerous data corrupting stuff so far? :D |
| 16:13 |
|
jadrian |
and all the tags |
| 16:14 |
|
kowey |
because the "distributed" part means you can just do "darcs init" and go, which eliminates the laziness barrier to getting started |
| 16:14 |
|
jadrian |
I see |
| 16:14 |
|
kowey |
the tradeoff to using distributed version control is that (A) being able to locally commit [we call this record] patches and push them at leisure is great |
| 16:14 |
|
kowey |
but (B)... sometimes you forget to push |
| 16:15 |
|
kolmodin |
I use a huge amount of short lived darcs repos |
| 16:15 |
|
kowey |
(for [B], the bzr people have a special command that you can tell users to use, which would force all commits to be centralised-style] |
| 16:15 |
|
jadrian |
ah sounds good |
| 16:15 |
|
kolmodin |
and it's so easy to "darcs get foo foo-branch-feature-x" that might or might not get pushed back to the master repo, without having to bother people with my branch if I decide to remove it |
| 16:15 |
|
jadrian |
what's bzr though? |
| 16:16 |
|
kowey |
but jadrian: for me, the usefulness of (A) plus the laziness factor far outweigh the inconveniences caused by (B) |
| 16:16 |
|
kowey |
bzr is a distributed revision control system, a competitor :-) |
| 16:16 |
|
jadrian |
kowey, got it |
| 16:16 |
|
jadrian |
ah, hadn't heard of that one |
| 16:16 |
|
kowey |
normally, most people have heard of git, hg and bzr but not darcs |
| 16:16 |
|
burp |
hm, haven't tried bzr, but the only usable vcs are git and darcs for me :> |
| 16:17 |
|
jadrian |
I've also heard of mercurial actually |
| 16:17 |
|
kowey |
as for why you may want to consider darcs... well, that's a separate discussion :-) |
| 16:17 |
|
burp |
jadrian: hg is mercurial |
| 16:17 |
|
jadrian |
darcs has been of my radar for a long time because I use haskell a lot |
| 16:17 |
|
jadrian |
burp, oh |
| 16:18 |
|
burp |
jadrian: chemical symbol for mercurial ;) |
| 16:18 |
|
jadrian |
burp, yeap I got it now :) |
| 16:18 |
|
kowey |
in my opinion, deciding to use darcs over git/hg/bzr requires a similar leap as deciding to use distributed revision control over centralised |
| 16:18 |
|
burp |
I don't really like hg, it's missing so much usefull stuff that darcs and git have |
| 16:18 |
|
kowey |
not saying it's necessarily better, but there's a certain ah-hah! in seeing what makes it compelling |
| 16:19 |
|
jadrian |
right, so much choice so little time |
| 16:19 |
|
kowey |
but helping people get to that "ah-hah!" is still a bit tricky because on the surface, they all look the same |
| 16:20 |
|
kowey |
but don't let the choice overwhelm you; the sooner you go distributed, the better, imho |
| 16:20 |
|
mornfall |
kowey: About those witnessed path types, I am not sure. Also the package you mentioned has a *huge* API. |
| 16:20 |
|
burp |
hg has the strange concept of "closing branches"� once you opened one you can't just trash them :/ |
| 16:20 |
|
burp |
so the nice throwaway branch technique available to git and darcs is not possible |
| 16:20 |
|
mornfall |
kowey: I'll keep to "just" keeping the paths sane by only exposing sane operations on them. |
| 16:21 |
|
mornfall |
kowey: (And distinguishing relative/absolute, since that's a path property.) |
| 16:21 |
|
kowey |
mornfall: ok |
| 16:21 |
|
mornfall |
kowey: Whether something is a file or directory, well that tricky. |
| 16:21 |
|
mornfall |
that's |
| 16:22 |
|
mornfall |
Witnesses have the downside that anything that comes from outside needs to be annotated. |
| 16:22 |
|
sm |
jadrian: yes, there are advantages to darcs over svn for a single user, such as: simplicity of creating and storing the repo; patch cherry-picking; hunk cherry-picking; ease of sharing repos/patches with others |
| 16:22 |
|
mornfall |
I would like this path stuff to be simple and easy. Maybe not super-safe... |
| 16:23 |
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jadrian |
sm, alright sounds good |
| 16:23 |
|
sm |
the ability to add commits wiki-style using gitit... |
| 16:24 |
|
jadrian |
pretty conviced it's worth the try then |
| 16:24 |
|
* sm |
can't think of anything else significant right now.. anyone ? |
| 16:25 |
|
kowey |
cherry picking may sound like some fancy thing, but it actual has very simple/practical implications |
| 16:25 |
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| 16:25 |
|
kowey |
like being able to safely undo something even though you've commit lots of stuff on top of it |
| 16:28 |
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| 16:30 |
|
mornfall |
The downside is that SVN doesn't mind a repository that has a gigabyte of openoffice crap in it. |
| 16:30 |
|
mornfall |
Whereas darcs *does* mind. |
| 16:33 |
|
sm |
yes, there's a couple of disadvantages too |
| 16:34 |
|
kowey |
another nice feature of CVS and SVN is subtree checkouts |
| 16:38 |
|
burp |
hm, git can do that too right? |
| 16:39 |
|
burp |
aka git submodule |
| 16:40 |
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| 16:40 |
|
gh_ |
hi |
| 16:40 |
|
kowey |
I'm afraid I don't know my way around git enough to comment. But http://lackingrhoticity.blogsp[…]rface-in-git.html seems to complain |
| 16:40 |
|
gh_ |
jadrian, did you know about this page http://wiki.darcs.net/Differen[…]FromSubversionCVS ? |
| 16:41 |
|
jadrian |
gh_, ah nice didn't know about it |
| 16:42 |
|
kowey |
yay! yes, Conspicuous Use of Archives http://producingoss.com/en/gro[…]ml#using-archives (which I keep forgetting about) |
| 16:42 |
|
zooko |
lispy told me last night that maybe GHC has been ported to OpenBSD/sparc64. Does anyone know about that? |
| 16:42 |
|
zooko |
The Tahoe-LAFS project is about to set up a darcs->bzr gateway so that we can get our OpenBSD/Sparc64 contributor able to do buildbot builds. |
| 16:43 |
|
kowey |
perhaps the folks at #ghc would know something? |
| 16:43 |
|
burp |
wish there was ghc on openbsd/macppc for my router :> |
| 16:44 |
|
kowey |
oh, I see zooko has filed http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/3511 |
| 16:45 |
|
zooko |
Yes, that ticket hasn't been updated, but lispy's comments made me think maybe GHC hackers made progress but they didn't know about GHC ticket 3511. |
| 17:12 |
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| 19:30 |
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| 19:31 |
|
tux_rocker |
hi |
| 19:32 |
|
tux_rocker |
i see "src/Darcs/Commands/Convert.lhs:190:51: y not in scope because it has a wobbly type (solution: add a type annotation)" |
| 19:32 |
|
tux_rocker |
when pushing stuff to the HEAD darcs darcs repo |
| 19:32 |
|
Heffalump |
that's with 6.8, which we've dropped support for |
| 19:32 |
|
tux_rocker |
hmmm |
| 19:32 |
|
Heffalump |
but darcs.net hasn't been updated yet |
| 19:33 |
|
tux_rocker |
what distro is it on? |
| 19:33 |
|
Heffalump |
not certain. An old Debian I think. |
| 19:34 |
|
mornfall |
Debian stable. |
| 19:34 |
|
mornfall |
Eric said he'll do something about that. |
| 19:35 |
|
Heffalump |
ok, current Debian stable |
| 19:35 |
|
Heffalump |
I guess we may be optimistically hoping for the next Debian release before our next release |
| 19:39 |
|
mornfall |
It could happen. Although it could also not happen. |
| 19:40 |
|
burp |
testing is already in freeze afaik |
| 19:40 |
|
Heffalump |
hmm, so on our GHC support wiki page we promise copy and pastable instructions for installing a recent GHC on Debian stable, but on our Debian wiki page we just provide textual instructions (which I think I wrote) |
| 19:40 |
|
Heffalump |
we should resolve this conflict |
| 19:41 |
|
mornfall |
burp: It is. But that doesn't need to mean anything (speaking with my DD hat on). : - P |
| 19:41 |
|
mornfall |
Regarding the actual time of release, anyway. |
| 19:41 |
|
mornfall |
But I am hopeful. |
| 19:43 |
|
burp |
ah I see :D |
| 20:05 |
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| 20:15 |
|
lispy1 |
mornfall: I was just talking to dons about the parser. he recommended that my strict tuple look like this data State a = !a :*: !B.ByteString |
| 20:15 |
|
lispy1 |
mornfall: then ghc will be able to specialize it more better on the ByteString side |
| 20:15 |
|
lispy1 |
mornfall: were you able to do any benchmarking with the repo I shared? |
| 20:16 |
|
mornfall |
lispy1: Not yet. I am stuck with other stuff. |
| 20:17 |
|
lispy1 |
He said I can get even better if I know "a", but in this case I can't |
| 20:17 |
|
mornfall |
lispy1: Btw. what was that about PReach and galois? You know anything about that? |
| 20:17 |
|
lispy1 |
mornfall: sorry, I missed that talk |
| 20:17 |
|
lispy1 |
mornfall: it's here if you want to watch it http://www.galois.com/blog/201[…]alk-video-preach-–-a-distributed-murphi-based-model-checker/ |
| 20:18 |
|
lispy1 |
oh wait, no I went to that talk |
| 20:18 |
|
lispy1 |
what am I saying :) |
| 20:18 |
|
mornfall |
I know I have seen the vid (or, most of it). |
| 20:18 |
|
lispy1 |
Did you have a more specific question? |
| 20:18 |
|
mornfall |
I have been in the distributed model checking business for a couple years now. :) |
| 20:18 |
|
lispy1 |
Are you already familiar with model checking? |
| 20:18 |
|
lispy1 |
ah |
| 20:19 |
|
mornfall |
I was just wondering what was galois doing with modelchecking. |
| 20:19 |
|
mornfall |
I have a sketchy idea what the company is doing overall. |
| 20:19 |
|
lispy1 |
we have a lot of formal methods people |
| 20:19 |
|
lispy1 |
have you seen our work with NASA? |
| 20:20 |
|
mornfall |
Unlikely. From NASA, all I know is SPIN. |
| 20:20 |
|
lispy1 |
http://www.galois.com/blog/200[…]esearch-contract/ |
| 20:21 |
|
lispy1 |
I wish I had more bg in model checking. We had an internal course in Isabelle and that gave me some FM background, but not enough :) |
| 20:21 |
|
lispy1 |
http://www.galois.com/blog/cat[…]y/formal-methods/ |
| 20:22 |
|
mornfall |
Model checking is kind of boring. It's mostly about cramming as a big model into as little RAM as possible. :) |
| 20:22 |
|
mornfall |
And exploring it as fast as possible. |
| 20:24 |
|
mornfall |
(Well, if galois wasn't so damn far away, I'd be tempted.) |
| 20:34 |
|
|
Igloo joined #darcs |
| 20:38 |
|
Heffalump |
have you considered applying for an internship there? |
| 20:39 |
|
|
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| 20:40 |
|
mornfall |
It's half the world away. |
| 20:41 |
|
lispy1 |
mornfall: we have an intern this year. I bet we'll have more next year. |
| 20:42 |
|
mornfall |
lispy1: But galois only exists in the US right? |
| 20:42 |
|
lispy1 |
mornfall: Yes. So far :) |
| 20:43 |
|
mornfall |
Nevertheless, I already have a job and I am not intending to move out of Europe anytime soon. When the Muhammad doesn't come to the mountain... |
| 20:47 |
|
Heffalump |
surely as a PhD student you can stop PhDing temporarily for internships? |
| 20:47 |
|
mornfall |
I mean a real job, aside from PhD. :P |
| 20:48 |
|
Heffalump |
ah :-) |
| 20:48 |
|
Heffalump |
is your PhD part-time then? |
| 20:48 |
|
mornfall |
My everything is part-time. Although officially my PhD is probably fulltime. |
| 20:48 |
|
mornfall |
(Even my existence is parttime. :) |
| 20:50 |
|
Heffalump |
that sounds complicated :-) |
| 20:50 |
|
mornfall |
It sure is. |
| 20:51 |
|
mornfall |
And my model checker keeps segfaulting. |
| 20:51 |
|
mornfall |
I hate MPI. |
| 21:02 |
|
mornfall |
Oh dear lords. |
| 21:05 |
|
Heffalump |
? |
| 21:07 |
|
mornfall |
Nothing really. I am too tired it seems. :| |
| 21:07 |
|
mornfall |
Simple things take long time. |
| 21:08 |
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kowey joined #darcs |
| 21:08 |
|
Heffalump |
newset makes rebase much faster, which is nice :-) |
| 21:09 |
|
Heffalump |
hey kowey |
| 21:09 |
|
mornfall |
Cool. :) |
| 21:09 |
|
* mornfall |
upgrades valgrind. |
| 21:09 |
|
mornfall |
This old junk is missing exceptions. |
| 21:10 |
|
kowey |
hey Heffalump, all |
| 21:10 |
|
mornfall |
Evening kowey. |
| 21:11 |
|
kowey |
hmm, should really announce the sprint soon so people can plan travel |
| 21:11 |
|
mornfall |
Yes, should. |
| 21:13 |
|
lispy1 |
There is a sprint? |
| 21:14 |
|
kowey |
it's that time of year: http://wiki.darcs.net/Sprints/2010-10 |
| 21:15 |
|
mornfall |
Heffalump, kowey, btw. do you think the huge path business restructuring is feasible? (for darcs 2.6) |
| 21:15 |
|
kowey |
we've just been harvesting availability/dates so far |
| 21:15 |
|
kowey |
but it's time to fix the date, I think |
| 21:15 |
|
mornfall |
(the h-s 0.6 patchset) |
| 21:15 |
|
Heffalump |
mornfall: I only skimmed so far. I'll take a proper look now. |
| 21:15 |
|
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| 21:15 |
|
mornfall |
It is a bit risky I guess, but I speculate that it's a good thing. |
| 21:16 |
|
kowey |
mornfall: I'm afraid I haven't really been following along yet, sorry! |
| 21:16 |
|
mornfall |
(To rip out all those incompatible path representations.) |
| 21:16 |
|
kowey |
but it seems like if we agree that something is good in principle |
| 21:16 |
|
kowey |
and if it may be risky |
| 21:16 |
|
mornfall |
kowey: Yes, that's what I was asking, primarily. |
| 21:16 |
|
kowey |
then earlier may be a lot better than later |
| 21:16 |
|
lispy1 |
I think 1) it NEEDS to happen. 2) vetting it for corner cases is extremely important. |
| 21:16 |
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mornfall |
It doesn't make sense to do if people are happy about what we have now. |
| 21:16 |
|
lispy1 |
Can you use filepath to sort of verify it against? |
| 21:16 |
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kowey |
lispy1: so if you fancy a trip to France... |
| 21:16 |
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Heffalump |
I'm not happy with the code. I'm not sure whether we've had any actual reliability problems with it, though. |
| 21:17 |
|
kowey |
15-17 October, pending final confirmation from Florent |
| 21:17 |
|
lispy1 |
kowey: oh, I don't think Octember will work for me |
| 21:17 |
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Heffalump |
in the abstract, I like the idea of Ben Moseley's "safe" filepaths, but we already have lots of type witnesses in darcs |
| 21:17 |
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kowey |
one day! one day we'll bring darcs-USA and darcs-Europe together |
| 21:18 |
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mornfall |
Heffalump: Well, it seems to work. But I am worried every time I need to touch some path since we have a few incompatible representations. |
| 21:18 |
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Heffalump |
(but that's a separate issue arising from kowey's suggestion, not a specific point about your patch) |
| 21:18 |
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mornfall |
Heffalump: And darcs keeps re-norming paths at random places which I am not very happy about either. |
| 21:18 |
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kowey |
is that the path fixing code? |
| 21:18 |
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lispy1 |
kowey: but maybe I can run another sprint here at Galois in Octember |
| 21:18 |
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mornfall |
Yes, I was thinking about witnessing paths, but I am a bit worried it's too complex for general-purpose coding. |
| 21:18 |
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Heffalump |
in principle re-architecting it should be fairly mechanical, right? Fix on the library and then change existing code to use it. |
| 21:18 |
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kowey |
one potentially stupid question: do we need to care about remote paths too? |
| 21:19 |
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kowey |
oh! now I understand what Octember means, gotcha |
| 21:19 |
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Heffalump |
I mean that the change of existing code should be fairly mechanical once the library is selected. |
| 21:19 |
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mornfall |
Heffalump: In darcs? |
| 21:19 |
|
Heffalump |
yes |
| 21:19 |
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lispy1 |
kowey: ah yeah, should actually be December since it's 10th month |
| 21:19 |
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Heffalump |
I guess you've actually already done that bit? I didn't read your patch fully. |
| 21:20 |
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mornfall |
Heffalump: Well, there are lots of subtle cases and a lot of code that does its own path munging that depends on things like leading dot, or no leading dot... it's pretty scary. |
| 21:20 |
|
Heffalump |
I guess another question is how this interacts with the whole withCurrentDirectory issue. |
| 21:21 |
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mornfall |
I tried to get everything fixed, but there are places where I had to resort to feeding pre-refactor style paths to blocks of code. |
| 21:21 |
|
mornfall |
I think the worst is Population and related code. |
| 21:22 |
|
mornfall |
In other words, I couldn't get annotate to work without stuffing it with string-based paths, which it then repacks and unpacks and repacks a few times for a good measure. |
| 21:22 |
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Heffalump |
ouch |
| 21:23 |
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mornfall |
(It has a completely custom tree representation with own set of path functions which are embedded in the tree traversal code. It's a major pita.) |
| 21:23 |
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mornfall |
| BC.unpack (nameI i) == "." = |
| 21:23 |
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mornfall |
| BC.unpack (nameI i) == takeWhile (/='/') d = |
| 21:24 |
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mornfall |
where dropDS ('.':'/':f) = dropDS f |
| 21:24 |
|
mornfall |
etc. |
| 21:24 |
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mornfall |
I'll probably have a go at it later. |
| 21:26 |
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mornfall |
"Windows has detected that the computer is connected to network." Congrats. |
| 21:31 |
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| 21:36 |
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lispy1 |
mornfall: ah yeah. We almost need to put a temporary ban on String in the darcs source |
| 21:36 |
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lispy1 |
Just till we sort all the packing unpacking |
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| 21:41 |
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mornfall |
(You may notice that I got quite hooked on view patterns. :) |
| 21:41 |
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| 21:42 |
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* Heffalump |
likes view patterns |
| 21:42 |
|
Heffalump |
though I like F#'s active patterns more |
| 21:42 |
|
Heffalump |
well, F#'s active patterns look nicer at the use site. The semantics at definition time are rather opaque. |
| 21:42 |
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* mornfall |
has never seen F#. |
| 21:44 |
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| 21:45 |
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mornfall |
Are you sure? |
| 21:45 |
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mornfall |
Looking at F# wikibook, it doesn't seem very nice to me. |
| 21:46 |
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Heffalump |
well, at the use site they look just like a discriminated union |
| 21:46 |
|
Heffalump |
which IMO is nice (if the pattern was well-designed to begin with) |
| 21:51 |
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mornfall |
F# looks a bit like funny ML. |
| 21:52 |
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lispy1 |
mornfall: F# is Ocaml on .NET |
| 21:52 |
|
lispy1 |
mornfall: so it should look like ML :) |
| 21:53 |
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Heffalump |
well, it originated as OCaml. It's changed quite a bit. |
| 21:53 |
|
Heffalump |
it's quite messy syntactically as a result |
| 21:54 |
|
mornfall |
How Microsoft. : - P |
| 21:56 |
|
Heffalump |
changing it made perfect sense for the niche it was designed for |
| 21:56 |
|
Heffalump |
I reckon abandonning the OCaml compatibility would have been better though |
| 22:00 |
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mornfall |
What was it designed for, actually? |
| 22:02 |
|
Heffalump |
FP cleanly integrated with .NET |
| 22:06 |
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mornfall |
I'm wondering how it compares to Scala. |
| 22:08 |
|
Heffalump |
more functional |
| 22:09 |
|
Heffalump |
better type inference, and nicer syntax for working with functions. [this is all hearsay, I know very little about Scala] |
| 22:09 |
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mornfall |
I guess I'll stick to Haskell. :) |
| 22:10 |
|
mornfall |
(And, well, C++.) |
| 22:11 |
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burp |
hm, can I amend-record in an easy way just to change the commit message? |
| 22:11 |
|
mornfall |
--edit |
| 22:11 |
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mornfall |
and then 'd' |
| 22:11 |
|
burp |
or is unrecord + record the best? |
| 22:11 |
|
burp |
ah thanks |
| 22:11 |
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mornfall |
Amend is safer (you won't accidentally mix up the patch with unrecorded changes) |
| 22:25 |
|
mornfall |
clang: error: compiler command failed due to signal 11 (use -v to see invocation) |
| 22:25 |
|
mornfall |
I guess the C++ support isn't quite ready yet... :( |
| 22:51 |
|
mornfall |
If single item on your backtrace needs more than 20 lines, you wish C++ would use more compact names for template instances. |
