Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #darcs, 2011-05-03

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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13:26 kowey Linus on Darcs: http://markmail.org/message/vk3gf7ap5auxcxnb
13:26 kowey (casually reading the huge Darcs thread on Haskell Cafe from April that I'd totally overlooked)
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13:29 mornfall Huge?
13:29 mornfall Links? :)
13:29 kowey crap, did I American-superlative again?
13:29 owst http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/h​askell-cafe/2011-April/091208.html I think?
13:29 owst kowey: "Why not Darcs?"
13:29 kowey 52 messages
13:30 kowey I always do that (big => huge).  Apparently, Anglophones do it, and Americans are the worst about it :-)
13:30 kowey yeah, that one
13:32 mornfall good => positively awesome? :)
13:32 mornfall Oh, just 88k unread messages in cafe.
13:33 kowey one of the advice I remember getting about letters of recommendation is "remember that if you get a letter from a European, it will likely come across as being damning with faint praise, but actually it's just because Europeans do not like to enthuse as much as we do"
13:33 kowey not actually quoting
13:33 int-e 88k? how many months worth is that?
13:41 owst "It seems half the people here think that having multiple branches per
13:41 owst repo is a fantastic idea, while the other half think it's a stupid idea.
13:42 owst Excuse the missing '"' :)
13:45 kowey hmm, I guess my stance is "yes, I think I can see how in-repo branching is good and useful; we're just trying to figure out how to do it in a way that does not sacrifice the conceptual simplicity of Darcs"
13:46 kowey the growable tags approach is somewhat promising
13:46 owst Growable tags?
13:46 kowey perhaps the idea of replacing the "tag" user object (user object is thing a user thinks they manipulate, like "message" in an email client, or "contact")
13:46 kowey with a more general "collection" objection
13:47 kowey the difference being that a tag is a static collection, whereas a branch can have patches (another user object) added/removed to it
13:48 kowey right now user objects we have: patches, repositories, bundles... (more)
13:48 mornfall kowey: I have been advocating tags-as-labels (opposed to tags-as-patches) for half a century now. :P
13:48 kowey hmm, seems like you're osmosing the American way :-)
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13:48 owst mornfall: what are the implications of treating a tag as just a label?
13:48 * owst is being stupid I think :)
13:49 kowey yep, the tag-as-label approach definitely not mine... it first really caught my attention when Ganesh suggested it at the sprint
13:49 kowey but mornfall was (I think) first :-)
13:50 kowey one important thing though is that from the perspective of the UI-matters drum I bang, I tend to care more about user objects rather than developer objects
13:51 kowey it's not about making it conceptually pure from an implementation perspective, but from a use perspective
13:51 owst Yes, indeed.
13:51 kowey that said, I'd be inclined to think that making it pure from the implementation perspective tends to help!
13:51 mornfall Or not. :) Depends, really.
13:51 mornfall See the UUID of the root object dilemma.
13:51 kowey Git might be an example of something which is conceptually simple from a development/implementation perspective
13:52 kowey ...but maybe not so simple from the use perspective
13:52 kowey or maybe that's not true... need to inventory their user objects
13:52 kowey maybe the ease of use problem there has nothing to do with objects, maybe just superficial UI problems
13:53 owst I guess the fewer user objects you present, the easier a tool is to use. But then, that may just give less "power".
13:53 kowey not necessarily true
13:54 owst Argh, I don't know, this stuff is hard :-p
13:54 kowey if you're careful about your choice of objects...
13:54 kowey you could introduce objects which have the right sort of generality
13:54 mornfall Well, I could say that I only present "objects". :) I only have one user object then, and the result is probably going to be horrible.
13:54 kowey and there's that perspective too
13:54 owst mornfall: evil! :-p
13:55 mornfall You know, life is about abstracting at the right level.
13:55 mornfall Too much, and you lose crucial detail.
13:55 mornfall Too little and you are swamped with irrelevancy.
13:55 mornfall It's the single most recurring theme of computer science.
13:56 kowey On the Management of Porridge Temperature
13:56 mornfall (You could argue that programming is the art of finding the right abstraction level. And by equal share about sticking right names on right abstractions. Nothing much else to it.)
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14:04 kowey "version" could be another example of a collection
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14:04 kowey the difference from tag is that it's anonymous
14:05 kowey not anonymous, sorry, but automatic with no explict naming
14:05 kowey the difference from branch (and similarity with tag) is that it's fixed to a particular set of patches
14:06 kowey so tag: static, named / branch: dynamic, named / version: static, unnamed
14:06 kowey presumably there isn't much of a use for unnamed dynamic
14:06 kowey argh... seem to be distracting self again... bye! :-)
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14:12 int-e Ah.
14:13 int-e "I care about revisions, you care about changes." sums up a lot of DVCS flame wars nicely and succinctly. (based on a mail from Stephen J. Turnbull)
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