Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #darcs, 2013-06-19

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07:11 raichoo morning
07:39 Heffalump 'lo
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12:04 * owst tries to look at raichoo's patch, but hub seems to be misbehaving
12:04 owst Oh, spoke to soon, f5 to the rescue!
12:13 owst raichoo: one immediate thing re your patch: could you keep the styling changes out of the new-feature patch? For example it's hard to see what "real" changes have been made to the definition of revert DarcsCommand
12:13 owst I do like the style changes though ;-)
12:14 owst What does choosePreTouching do vs chooseTouching?
12:16 owst You could use a single "unless supressUnrevert" with a do block for the debug output and writeUnrevert lines
12:17 owst Where does the fact that look-for-adds was passed in affect the code? I'm not seeing anything obvious.
12:17 owst Anway, there're some comments :-)
12:24 raichoo owst: I will rerecord the patch once I've got enough input for my patch :)
12:24 owst raichoo: cool
12:25 raichoo I think dropping the "Pre" smuggled in somehow. This is just something to get the discussion around the patch going. I'm very new to the code base.
12:25 raichoo But I plan to change that ^^
12:27 owst You added Pre, that's why I wondered what it did :-)
12:27 owst I had a quick glance at the definitions and it wasn't immediately obvious, a few comments on them are needed!
12:28 raichoo Ah ok. Sorry I'm currently at work therefore I'm not focused ^^
12:28 owst No problemo
12:29 raichoo I suppose I will be hacking more on the stuff tonight. Not sure, it's pretty hot today and I might get distracted quite a lot :D
12:29 raichoo Normally I code on friday nights ^^
12:30 owst Whereabouts in the world are you?
12:30 raichoo Germany
12:30 owst Ah, it's hot here in the UK too
12:30 raichoo It's nice. Finally a little bit of summer ^^
12:30 owst :-)
12:32 raichoo I'll be giving a scala workshop in a few minutes I'm curious how receptive the audience will be. It's 30°C atm ^^
12:38 raichoo owst: Anyway, thanks a lot for looking at my patch. Your feedback is very welcome :)
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12:39 owst np :-)
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14:14 sm owst: hub misbehaving ?
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14:53 owst sm: yeah it seemed to be for a while
14:53 owst it was quite slow to respond, and it errored once
14:55 sm I see some request errors in the log around that time, but not a full restart
14:56 sm was it slow while rendering the change ? showing you the spinner ?
14:56 sm or slow to even start rendering the page ?
14:57 sm I realise you might not have a video camera memory of this :)
14:58 owst Umm, both :-)
14:58 owst Not the most useful debugging information in the world, I realise ;-)
14:59 sm the request errors I see are a bunch of "thread killed", which I suspect is timeouts, plus one "error opening _darcs/pristine.hashed/ed114d81c4fb0b197b10e0​419581ecd3a0b62db309366d972982c0ff7dcba882", which are fairly regular and unexplained
14:59 sm it all helps
15:00 sm I'm working on the log files a bit
15:07 onetom sm: are you simon?
15:07 sm hi onetom! yes
15:08 onetom so how can i help to debug?
15:09 onetom i can send u the repo so u can try to reproduce the error
15:09 sm onetom: you have a small repo that fails to push, always ? yes please that would be good
15:10 sm and you don't see the problem with other repos, or with this repo if you push one patch at a time, right
15:11 onetom well, i don't have many other repos really, but i can look for some and try older repos
15:11 onetom and yes, even this repo worked if 1 pushed 1 patch at a time
15:12 onetom so the problematic repo is just 153kB in tbz2. should i email it to u?
15:12 sm sure
15:15 sm just saw your ferry mail, thanks. You live in an interesting place :)
15:16 onetom this is what i see from the ferry: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/​4/41/Hong_Kong_Skyline_Panorama_-_Dec_2008.jpg
15:17 onetom hmm, i just tried to create a repo now and it hasn't finished
15:17 onetom the browser is stilll waiting for the http response
15:17 onetom the repo name is test-before-sending-to-simon
15:18 sm the site is responsive for me. Could there be network trouble ?
15:18 onetom i clicked on the "create repository" button again, but no difference
15:18 onetom http://hub.darcs.net/ itself work (a bit slowly though)
15:18 sm yes it does, front page takes a second or two
15:20 sm I don't see your POST in the access log yet. Can you run ping hub.darcs.net for a bit and see if it shows packet loss
15:21 sm that's a pretty picture
15:26 sm onetom: if it's not sensitive, can you make the test repo(s) public, it's a little easier for me
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15:32 sm onetom: it pushes for me with no problem, naturally
15:33 sm tell me again how it fails for you ? does it happen every time ? what darcs version are you using ?
15:34 onetom it happens consistently
15:34 onetom are u on mac os?
15:34 sm mac and gnu/linux
15:34 sm osx 10.7
15:34 onetom $ darcs -v
15:34 onetom 2.8.2 (release)
15:34 sm 2.8.1 here
15:35 sm how does it fail ?
15:35 onetom I'm trying w the latest now
15:35 onetom just as i showed
15:35 onetom u can't see above? (maybe my connection dropped during my messages)
15:35 onetom i just get an "Apply failed!"
15:35 sm oh yes, thanks. That log on the issue is a little hard to read, maybe you can paste to gist.github.com
15:36 sm or on the issue enclosed in ``` lines
15:36 onetom this last push i tried with 2.8.4 (+ 1 patch)
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15:37 onetom gist.whathub.com? ;D gist.darcs.net u mean? ;)
15:37 sm heh
15:38 sm this is something silly
15:38 onetom https://gist.github.com/onetom/5815308
15:39 onetom so could u reproduce it?
15:39 sm not yet
15:39 onetom ok, let me try to push a single patch 1st and then the rest
15:39 sm see if you can find out if it's a particular patch that fails
15:40 onetom ok, i will try one by one afterwards
15:40 mtp it could also be the controlmaster deal
15:41 sm mtp: really ? onetom says it affects only this repo
15:41 onetom well, i didn't say that
15:41 sm aha
15:41 mtp well, when i was being affected by that, 'push' would work on some repos but not others
15:41 onetom i don't have other repo at hand to try with
15:41 sm interesting
15:42 onetom but control master might be the cause
15:42 sm there's a bit about it in the FAQ
15:42 onetom so is that a known issue? i thought it has been ironed out already… :/
15:42 sm yes, it is a known unimplemented feature of darcshub-ssh
15:42 sm of the ssh package, actually
15:43 sm AFAIK
15:43 onetom the haskell ssh package?
15:43 sm yes
15:43 mtp i still think it shouldn't choke and die on things it doesn't understand, but hey
15:43 mtp "patches welcome" contrasted with "i don't actually know haskell"
15:43 onetom is that a from scratch implementation of ssh or just a binding to open-ssh?
15:44 sm mtp: I totally agree and would really love any progress towards that
15:45 sm onetom: I forget.. so does disabling ControlMaster help ?
15:45 onetom i haven't tried that yet
15:45 mtp echo $'Host *darcs*\n    ForwardAgent no\n    ForwardX11 no\n    ControlMaster no' >> ~/.ssh/config
15:45 onetom i started the other experiment so thought i would finish that
15:46 sm I forget what the other one was, but mtp's idea is now looking very likely
15:46 onetom and it can fail actually on a patch which seems to be successfully pushed too, because the next push won't prompt for it
15:47 onetom it happened when there were only 16 patches left, but i guess it happens randomly
15:50 onetom mtp: it failed even after i ran ur command but i suspect the reason for that is that i have Host * rule at its bottom already which takes priority probably...
15:50 onetom yup, that was it...
15:51 onetom but this is really lame… and not user friendly
15:51 sm mtp++ ! thanks
15:51 onetom and just doesn't really add up actually
15:52 sm onetom++ for the debugging
15:52 onetom if the ~/.ssh/config file matters i would suspect the haskell ssh  package is just a binding for the underlying ssh library
15:52 mtp the haskell ssh package is what runs on the serverside
15:52 onetom but if thats true then why does it matter how is it configured?...
15:52 mtp darcs uses /usr/bin/ssh to talk to the server
15:52 sm perhaps you're right. My FAQ link goes to hub's SSHServer.hs, maybe it needs to be added there
15:53 mtp /usr/bin/ssh tries to negotiate something that the server doesn't speak and the thing chokes
15:53 sm oh right
15:53 mtp so yeah, when you configure your client to not negotiate that, the server behaves less badly
15:54 onetom i wish so much all the time plan9 won over unix…
15:55 onetom this whole encrypted remote communication thing would be totally transparent and any kindergardener could just run their darcs servers....
15:56 mtp yeah, i like how plan9 has a system call that sslifies a file descriptor
15:56 sm that would be nice..
16:02 sm I've updated http://hub.darcs.net/simon​/hub.darcs.net-docs/FAQ.md .. any other ideas ?
16:03 sm got to go, thanks onetom, mtp
16:04 onetom thanks for it too
16:04 onetom i will look into this issue
16:05 sm awesome
16:05 onetom maybe i can come up with some workaround which is more user friendly
16:06 onetom unfortunately i can only rely on common sense, since I'm a Rebol / Forth / Javascript / Ruby / PIC assembly / awk / bash coder "only"
16:06 sm I think darcs has a problem with misleading error messages generally, but darcsden's SSHServer.hs should easily be able to detect this and give a better warning
16:06 sm or maybe it's at a lower level, in the ssh package
16:07 onetom i checked your doc change. i think it's good enough, since it mentions the Apply Failed! so it should be googleable
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16:11 onetom i like a lot how responsive hub.darcs.net is, btw!
16:12 sm \o/
16:12 onetom have u seen the new github design?
16:12 onetom they put a lot of the functionality on the right side of the page
16:13 onetom i think they copied hub.darcs ;P
16:16 sm onetom: ha! must be :)
16:16 sm they're feeling the heat!
16:17 onetom that's the only explanation… it just took a long time for them to collect enough will power and dare to do it… ;)
16:17 sm I'm thankful for the cleanup, it was much needed
16:17 onetom so r u using git actively too?
16:18 mtp i try not to :)
16:18 sm yes, for a few months, since I needed to move my hledger project to github
16:18 onetom I'm "preaching" about darcs for a long time now; i would be curious what do u think, what's the most effective way to win people over from git/hg?
16:18 mtp onetom: point out that darcs has comprehensible documentation
16:18 onetom move? from where?
16:19 sm IMHO it's simplicity. darcs is the simple DVCS, darcs hub is a simpler github
16:19 mtp git's manpages assume you've been pickled in git culture for years
16:19 sm simpler conceptual model, simpler ui
16:19 sm = less time learning your VCS
16:20 mtp less time learning, more time committing, fewer chances for you to shoot yourself in the foot
16:20 onetom no GUI tho, so the windows ppl who are usually less familiar w technology are not so much better off w darks, especially if they need to fiddle w putty config… :/
16:20 sm agreed
16:21 mtp darcs's commands all do one thing; git has commands that do wildly divergent things depending on their arguments
16:21 onetom i just hooked up an intern kid from india yesterday (to github from his windows laptop using putty w agent forwarding) and it took almost 2 hrs to get it done… :(
16:21 onetom mtp: that's a good way to explain it, thx
16:22 sm someone should maintain a nice darcs windows installer
16:23 onetom the other thing i was thinking about is to create a video or a prezi or even an http://slideshow-s9.github​.io/slideshow-impress.js/ presentation to show off the installation process
16:23 onetom as a start...
16:23 sm nice, but costly to keep up to date vs a text doc
16:24 onetom well, i don't think the process has changed at all since 2006, when i started using darcs...
16:24 onetom i mean, has NOT :)
16:24 sm but we'd like that to change
16:24 onetom oh, i already said "don't", ok nvm :)
16:25 onetom well, thats why i said s9-impress; thats like prezi but using html5 and scripting
16:26 sm I'd check with Heffalump and any other darcs-on-windows users here for ideas on windows installation
16:27 onetom good idea, thx
16:27 sm there should at least be a 2.8 binary on the download page
16:27 onetom yesterday i looked at the relevant github docs
16:27 onetom those actually apply mostly to darcs too since they are mostly about setting up the ssh connection..
16:28 sm oh there is a 2.8 windows binary at http://darcs.net/Binaries , it should be added in the windows section also
16:28 sm and old ones removed
16:29 onetom btw, why isn't there higher versions of the mac build?
16:29 mtp or the freebsd build :)
16:29 onetom nobody takes the responsibility to build it?
16:29 sm right
16:29 mtp (i gave some thought to building darcs on fbsd)
16:29 onetom so who should i ask get that responsibility?
16:30 onetom btw, around 2-3yrs ago i made a friend of mine really excited in darcs and he loved it but like a week or two later have came back w a fuck u, because it doesn't have a solaris version… :)
16:31 sm onetom: us! I don't *think* we have a windows maintainer at present.. or is it you Heffalump ?
16:31 onetom while it's obviously is a very niche platform, the nerds using it are extremely influential , so it would still by highly valuable to provide versions for it....
16:31 sm oh you said mac.. I don't think we have a mac maintainer at all
16:31 onetom yup, mac
16:32 onetom so I'm the mac maintainer then
16:32 onetom where can i upload the 2.8.2 +1 patch version?
16:32 onetom should i paste my public key here? :)
16:32 sm onetom: excellent, mention it on the mail list too in due course
16:33 sm welcome to the project
16:33 onetom u mean that i took on the responsibility or my public key? :)
16:35 sm I'd send a mail saying you're stepping up as mac maintainer, also check if there's an existing mac maintainer I'm forgetting, they might have useful info
16:36 sm such as how to upload binaries
16:37 sm Heffalump, kowey, gh_ are some good folks to ask when they're next online
16:37 onetom ok, thanks
16:37 sm it probably involves ssh access on darcs.net
16:38 onetom see, there are always great things happening when I'm in between jobs! ;)
16:39 sm what kind of work have you been doing ?
16:41 onetom http://tinyurl.com/tamas-herman-resume
16:41 onetom relatively simple web development lately
16:41 onetom and lots of sysadmin stuff before than
16:41 onetom and when i was younger, i did quite a bit of embedded programming too
16:42 onetom so the other fruit of being jobless again is that i can go to the rebol / red conference in montreal next month (on my birthday ;)
16:42 onetom http://recode.revault.org/
16:42 onetom darcs and rebol are the 2 things which I'm passionate about for a looong long time
16:43 onetom so if i can be trusted with the mac version maintenance, i would feel really really honoured :)
16:45 raichoo ok, my darcs patch seems to be doing exactly what I wanted it to do. But I have no idea why… anyone care to enlighten me? This is kind of scary :/
16:46 raichoo code is here: http://hub.darcs.net/raichoo/​darcs-screened-clean/changes
16:46 owst raichoo: I'm not sure what you're asking :-)
16:46 raichoo I can do darcs revert -l to and it also checks for unadded files. They also end up in unrevert which is what I want.
16:47 raichoo owst: I need time to type :3
16:48 sm onetom: cool, a similar sort of mix here (embedded -> sysadmin/webdev). Go rebol! :)
16:48 raichoo unrevert even restores the files without having them added. The state get restored excactly the way it was before. I just don't know why. Maybe I'm not getting how the unrevert file works.
16:51 owst So darcs unrevert doesn't modify pending, it would seem. That's a bug - reverting a `darcs add`ed file and then unreverting should re-perform the add.
16:51 owst IMO, anyway
16:52 raichoo I do the following:
16:52 raichoo darcs init
16:52 raichoo echo "foo" > bla.txt
16:52 raichoo darcs revert -l
16:53 raichoo darcs unrevert
16:53 raichoo and everything is back to normal.
16:55 raichoo which IMHO shouldn't happen with the code as it is.
16:57 owst I did:
16:57 owst darcs init; echo 'foo' > foo; darcs add foo; darcs rev -a; darcs unrev -a; darcs wh
16:58 owst Though strangely, cat _darcs/patches/pending *does* show 'addfile ./foo'
16:58 owst weird
16:58 raichoo So I found a bug in the process?
16:59 owst Yeah, I think so
17:00 raichoo Nice :)
17:01 sm dammit raichoo...
17:01 sm :)
17:02 raichoo I've got the reverse midas touch ^^.
17:03 Heffalump did someone Heffalump? Lots of scrollback!
17:04 onetom yeah, me and sm
17:04 onetom we were curious about the state of the windows installer
17:04 onetom and also if there are any mac maintainers
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17:04 onetom i just sent an email about the mac version maintenance to the dev mailing list
17:05 Heffalump I guess if the wiki list of binaries isn't up to date with the latest source release, that by definition means that they are unmaintained at present
17:05 Heffalump I'm trying to remember when we last heard from people
17:06 Heffalump also, most of the releases in the 2.8 series haven't really affected the binary, so they may have not seen a need to update
17:06 Heffalump certainly MacOSX looks unmaintained given the lack of any 2.8
17:07 onetom sm: when we delete a repo, it would be more logical to get redirected to the my repos page rather than /
17:07 onetom what do u think?
17:07 sm onetom: you're right, it's in the issue tracker
17:07 sm should be an easy fix too
17:09 raichoo owst: So how can I proceed? I'm not that familiar with the code yet. Not sure how to fix this.
17:09 raichoo Maybe I should just try on friday…
17:10 owst Hmm, so I don't think your code would work, if unrevert re-added files
17:10 onetom wow, the registration process to the darcs wiki was quite flaky… i got a username already take error, but then i got successfully registered because i could log in afterwards...
17:10 raichoo owst: I know that my code shouldn't work ^^
17:11 raichoo owst: That's why I was so confused in the first place :D
17:11 sm (maybe not in the tracker, guess I dreamed it)
17:13 raichoo owst: Whenever I'm trying to understand a new code base I'm trying to make it misbehave in interesting ways. That was the result. ^^
17:13 onetom Heffalump: so how can i upload a binary? as i see i can edit the wiki now
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17:37 onetom i guess it's okay to use bz2 for the mac package, right?
17:37 onetom i've updated the wikipage, btw. now i just really have to put the binary up
17:37 onetom in the meantime, i would point it to my server. i hope thats okay
17:42 sm onetom: sounds good
17:44 Heffalump onetom: I'm not sure, actually. I suspect packagers have been given ssh access in the past.
17:45 Heffalump but the BSD binaries point to the packager's server
17:45 Heffalump which would you prefer to use?
17:46 onetom ssh access, but only because i assume darcs.net runs on a decent hardware w a good connection
17:47 onetom i wouldn't mind serving it from amazon s3 either, until it gets expensive...
17:47 onetom i would also prefer it under darcs.net because it looks more legit too
17:48 onetom btw, who has macs, can u please try to download it from http://darcs.net/Binaries just to test it?
17:48 Heffalump ok, I need to check with kowey on the procedure (if any) for granting ssh access
17:48 onetom i stripped the binary, btw. since it runs, i guess it's okay
17:49 Heffalump I think that makes sense
17:49 onetom Heffalump: thanks. see my pub key on the dev mailing list
17:50 onetom so what do u know about the darcs.net server's capabilities? would it make sense to serve it from s3 instead?
17:50 Heffalump it's a VM hosted by osuosl
17:51 sm onetom: darcs +RTS --info works here, but anything else gives Illegal instruction: 4
17:51 Heffalump so free bandwidth that they're happy to supply
17:51 onetom sm: but u r on 10.7
17:51 sm yes
17:51 onetom might be a reason...
17:52 sm and now I know what (10.8.4 Intel x86_64) means :)
17:52 mtp might want to rebuild with an older sdk
17:52 mtp :)
17:52 Heffalump the sysadmin is a bit hit-or-miss (kowey and me) so it is very occasionally down, but I don't think that's a major downside
17:53 onetom btw, was it down yesterday or was it just my connection?
17:53 onetom i couldn't reach it for several minutes while google.com.hk worked well..
17:53 Heffalump not that I know of, but the hit-or-miss admin means I only know it's down when someone tells me :-)
17:54 onetom sm: i tried a changes --last 5 and it worked...
17:54 onetom mtp: it was built on almost the very latest sdk indeed (i was just 1 version behind)
17:55 Heffalump onetom: I guess try downforeveryoneorjustme, and perhaps compare reachability with osuosl.org, to diagnose if it happens again
17:55 onetom but i don't think it makes a lot of sense to encourage staying w later mac os versions
17:55 mtp onetom: that makes the binary useless to anyone on 10.7, and i know some people who still run 10.6
17:55 mtp so, if you want to make darcs useful to more people, you should rebuild using an older sdk
17:56 onetom Heffalump: i was just so tired i couldn't even type downforeveryoneorjustme correctly, but okay, next time i will compare w osuosl.org
17:56 onetom mtp: i don't have access to older mac os-es
17:56 onetom but mountain lion will become obsolete in a few months anyway ;)
17:56 mtp yes, but you can build against older SDKs
17:56 mtp through some flag which i forget offhand
17:57 mtp -mmacosx-version-min=version
17:57 mtp This value can also be set with the MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET environment variable.
17:57 onetom exactly… :) that's why i don't want to bother. but even if i would rebuild, i couldn't easily test and i don't like to release untested products..
17:57 sm oh oh, our new mac maintainer demands bleeding edge os :)
17:57 sm just kidding
17:58 sm maintaining binaries is hard
17:58 mtp i don't see why you don't want to bother based on that
17:58 mtp :|
17:58 sm if it's easy to build, you can totally get help with the testing
17:58 onetom well… my older (an only) machine which i have ever spelt coffee into started to die so i just bought a new mac a month ago… it came w mountain lion...
17:59 Heffalump you can test with the OS you have, and hope for the best for older ones, can't you?
17:59 Heffalump "Untested on older OSes" is better than "Known to be broken on older OSes"
17:59 mtp exactly
18:00 mtp "doesn't work unless you're on 10.8" is not useful and could easily make some people go 'fuck darcs'
18:00 onetom mtp: I'm a big opponent of complexity. that's why I'm a rebol/red fan… the red language for example capable of compiling cross architecture and cross os and it's around 1 megabyte and it's powered by a half megabyte rebel executable which only depends on libc aaand it doesn't require aaanything from the gcc bloat chain...
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18:01 mtp this is interesting but fundamentally irrelevant to what i'm talking about
18:01 mtp you are shipping binaries that are not usable by people who did not just buy a new mac
18:02 Heffalump well, we can always offer the 2.5 binaries as well for older macs
18:02 Heffalump a bit messy but I think some 2.8 binaries are better than none if onetom doesn't want the extra effort
18:02 onetom mtp: it's fundamentally relevant in that sense that i don't want to waste my lifetime on learning how to stay backward compatible with a closed source OS which is using that monster C compiler which I'm party rebelling against
18:02 mtp or they could be rebuilt with MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET=10.7 and sm can test it
18:03 onetom also it's been made very clear that it is for 10.8.4
18:03 mtp wasting your lifetime setting an environment variable?
18:03 sm wasn't clear for me :)
18:03 onetom although i agree it worth to mention that it's know to throw up on 10.7
18:04 onetom mtp: setting the environment variable doesn't guarantee anything. it's just part of the job. someone should test it.
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18:04 onetom but if you can test it, i don't mind trying
18:04 mtp which is exactly what i suggested
18:04 sm great
18:04 mtp sm can test it, because he has 10.7
18:04 Heffalump I also still think that untested but might work is better than definitely broken
18:04 Heffalump but if sm can test, so much the better
18:05 onetom soooo, what exactly should i do? MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET=10.7 cabal install darcs ?
18:05 mtp sounds reasonable to me
18:05 onetom ok, running it now
18:06 mtp if that doesn't work, cabal install --gcc-options="-mmacosx-version-min=10.7" darcs
18:06 onetom ok
18:06 onetom thx
18:07 onetom can i note down this info in the wiki for making it easy for other maintainers to do it? or ppl who can't trust the binaries?
18:08 mtp assuming it works
18:08 onetom should i just add to the binaries page or is there a better place for it?
18:08 onetom mtp: it's still compiling
18:09 onetom btw, how can i do parallel compilation?
18:09 sm add -j I think
18:09 onetom thats a make option normally… but ok i will try
18:10 onetom Installed darcs-2.8.4
18:10 onetom real3m17.770s
18:10 Heffalump onetom: I think that page is probably a reasonable place for brief instructions.
18:10 sm it's only good when cabal installing multiple packages, doesn't yet parallellise a single package build
18:11 onetom ah, i see.. that's sad
18:14 onetom https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzosdnyp8xukn​vu/darcs-2.8.4-OSX-10.7-x86_64.tar.bz2
18:15 Heffalump sm: I'm working on making darcsden easier to use locally on my personal collection of repositories. For that, it would be better if at least some of the metadata wasn't in CouchDB, but rather in the filesystem somewhere. How should I approach it - make that behaviour an option?
18:16 onetom btw, what would you recommend for the filename within the archive. should it contain the arch,version,os info or should it be just called darcs?
18:16 onetom sm: i was also surprised to see in your ssh source that it starts w a couchdb reference..
18:17 * Heffalump doesn't really like the couchdb dependency, but it probably makes sense for a dedicated hosting site to use something that scales well
18:18 sm Heffalump: good question, any chance you can make the fs work well enough to drop couch ?
18:18 onetom it's still premature optimization… i wish scale would be a problem… :)
18:18 Heffalump sm: probably if you're happy with the principle.
18:18 onetom sm: so can u give that new binary a try, pls?
18:18 Heffalump I think repository level stuff would belong nicely in _darcs/something
18:18 sm working on it onetom
18:18 Heffalump not so sure about things like lists of users
18:18 onetom sm: i tried whatsnew and changes --last 5 and it ran for me
18:19 sm onetom: works great here
18:19 onetom ok, i will update the wiki then
18:19 onetom Heffalump: can i title it as the official mac build then?
18:19 onetom mtp: thanks for the quick assistance! :)
18:20 Heffalump onetom: sure
18:20 Heffalump do we know how likely people are to care about not having 10.6 etc?
18:20 sm I think I prefer having the precise darcs and platform version in the filename by default, slightly. Is the x86_4 needed ?
18:21 sm -x86_64
18:22 sm hmm I take it back, people installing darcs probably want the unpacked executable to just be "darcs"
18:23 onetom it's still possible to build and run 32bit versions, so to be absolutely clear, i think it makes sense
18:23 sm ok cool
18:24 onetom sm: i was actually confused when i was upgrading darcs which binary is which, since i didnt want to throw away the old one until the new one proves to be stable, in which case i was renaming the old one to include the version number
18:25 onetom so nowadays im having binaries named w version and just link /usr/local/bin/darcs to the one i want
18:25 sm Heffalump: yes I was thinking _darcs/darcsden/* at one point. Some kinds of query useful for the web app/darcs hub might still require a db for efficiency, but if not, then all the better
18:27 sm onetom: fair enough. I usually name my binaries simply darcs-2.x, for easier spelling
18:31 Heffalump onetom: what username would you like for your darcs.net account?
18:31 onetom onetom
18:31 onetom can?
18:32 Heffalump yep
18:33 Heffalump I'm around a bit sporadically for a while - will let you know when I've set itup
18:33 onetom ok, i wont go to bed until i tested it and adjusted the wiki
18:35 Heffalump ok - but be warned it might be an hour or so before I'm done (got kids' bedtime to do, and I need to do a bit of poking around with the permissions because it's not setup in a particularly clean way)
18:39 onetom no problem
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18:50 Heffalump sm: hmm, I guess issue tracking ends up in couchdb too?
19:06 Heffalump onetom: can you ssh to onetom@darcs.net now?
19:06 onetom trying
19:06 onetom Warning: Permanently added 'darcs.net,140.211.166.73' (RSA) to the list of known hosts.
19:06 onetom Permission denied (publickey).
19:07 Heffalump bah
19:08 Heffalump hmm, apparently I managed to lock your account while trying to make sure it didn't have a password
19:09 onetom a friend of mine just did the same a few days ago… it's contagious apparently ;)
19:09 onetom he just turned of the fail2ban module
19:09 onetom or whats the name of that thing (on buguntu at least)
19:10 Heffalump try now?
19:10 onetom im in
19:11 onetom so where do the binaries live?
19:11 Heffalump great. The binaries live in /home/darcs-unstable/binaries
19:11 Heffalump I wouldn't be surprised if the permissions aren't quite right yet.
19:11 onetom checking
19:13 onetom wow… resolving dropbox.com took 5-6 seconds.. =:O
19:13 onetom ls -l
19:23 onetom ok, i've uploaded the files and they are downloadable and there is no difference from my local originals
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19:33 onetom ok, i think im done. 2.8.4 are available for osx 10.7 and 10.8 directly from darcs.net
19:35 sm onetom: nice, thank you
19:37 onetom thanks for the opportunity. i was scratching my own itch in the 1st place… :) but then it will also help 2 of my other friends for sure, plus i can go out and popularize darcs _aaand_ hub.darcs.net!!! further without any shame :)
19:37 * onetom very very satisfied today
19:38 sm excellent!
19:44 onetom soooo lets say i forked the hub.darcs.net-docs repo add some id attributes to the FAQ sections (so i can reference them in the issue tracker…) how can i do a "pull request"?
19:45 onetom also why did u just use <strong> tags instead of h3 for example?
19:45 onetom or the equivalent md markup ### ?
19:51 sm onetom: currently you say "sm: please from pull my hub.darcs.net-docs branch"
19:51 onetom tied to a dove's ankle. ok, i see :)
19:51 sm and I'll see it at http://hub.darcs.net/simon/​hub.darcs.net-docs/patches . Oh look, there's another patch there
19:52 sm thanks ben sinclair
19:52 onetom ah, true, i saw that feature…
19:53 onetom is it tracked which one is the original repo which has been forked?
19:53 onetom i was wondering if we could highlite those patches which are newer than the original repo's latest patch
19:53 sm actually ben's patch seems incorrect
19:53 onetom i know it's a bit against darcs' logic, but kinda practical
19:54 onetom :) now that im asking…. there is a silent "pull request"
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20:01 sm onetom: was that a question ? darcs pull -q ?
20:03 onetom :) no, i was just referring to ben's patch. if i dont ask u wont notice for some more time
20:07 sm re FAQ formatting, I probably went with ** instead of ### to get a compact layout and avoid spending even more time fiddling with styles just then
20:30 edwardk joined #darcs
20:32 onetom sm: can i obliterate from a hub.darcs.net remote repo?
20:32 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
20:32 Heffalump onetom: "ssh hub.darcs.net obliterate repo" IIRC
20:32 onetom im also wondering why did u say " Why is ssh or darcs push to hub.darcs.net hanging" ? i can't really purely ssh into hub.darcs.net, can i?
20:33 onetom ok, maybe i should read the faq while im at it anyway… :) sorry for the questoin
20:34 Heffalump you can't ssh in and get a shell, but you can run a restricted set of commands
20:34 Heffalump darcs push works by running darcs apply over ssh
20:34 onetom sure, thats obvious
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20:35 onetom is it a secret what are the allowed commands in the authorized_keys file?
20:36 Heffalump I don't think it has one. The ssh server is a custom implementation.
20:36 onetom is there any rationale for that?
20:36 sm here are the commands: http://hub.darcs.net/simon/d​arcsden/src/SSHServer.hs#82
20:36 onetom imean can i find any online discussion about this, why has it been done this way?
20:36 Heffalump onetom: more control and easier deployment I guess
20:37 sm darcs hub has its own ssh server for security, basically. You don't have to give a system login to random people
20:37 Heffalump I vaguely recall chatting to alexsuraci about it a long time ago on this channel
20:37 sm and easier deployment/operability, right
20:37 Heffalump but I can't remember exactly when. I might have been at a darcs sprint in Zurich if you really want to track down the date.
20:37 sm works on windows! (maybe)
20:37 onetom :D
20:37 Heffalump sm: it builds for me on windows, I should try to run it!
20:38 sm I'd like to make an account on your windows darcsden :)
20:38 sm when such things work, it really is a strong point of haskell's
20:38 onetom okay, thx. im just curious because i thought about this from time to time when i got really pissed off of git and sweared to create a darcshub… :)
20:39 Heffalump I did have to install OpenSSL by hand (but it's just a download)
20:40 Heffalump sm: why does it need an ssh key file?
20:40 sm onetom: patch-tag.com was the first darcs "hub", darcsden.com was the second, hub.darcs.net is the third
20:40 Heffalump is it actually a server key rather than a client key?
20:41 sm Heffalump: where do you see that ?
20:41 Heffalump when I ran darcsden-ssh, it complained that darcsden-state/.ssh/id_rsa didn't exist
20:41 Heffalump now I've made that, it runs
20:42 sm it needs its own key to do the ssh encryption handshake ? <HANDWAVE>
20:42 onetom sm: i know http://www.patch-tag.com/r/onetom
20:43 onetom i didnt do anything there back then because it was slow, flaky and buggy and probably suffered from the control master issue too...
20:44 sm maybe not, it uses real ssh
20:44 sm and jails
20:44 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
20:44 sm or a jail
20:47 Heffalump sm: hmm, I ssh'd in and darcsden-ssh crashed :-)
20:47 sm heh
20:48 Heffalump I should make it part of the Windows service, actually
20:48 Heffalump but I guess having it work at all would help
20:49 sm for one thing if you came up with an improvement, you'd be able to test it locally
20:49 Heffalump yeah
20:55 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
20:59 onetom sm: does this look good to you? http://hub.darcs.net/onetom/hub.darcs.net-doc​s/browse/FAQ.md#why-ssh-or-darcs-push-to-hub.darcs.net-can-hang
21:00 onetom i changed the headings so they can be referenced via an url fragment (also removed the space from before the question marks because it added an extra underline to the #fragment)
21:00 sm onetom: hanging is rare, I think it was better highlighting all the possible symptoms right in the question, so people are more likely to see
21:01 onetom also changed the line ending double spaces (because my editor settings have removed those… it's not the best practice to use such invisible trailing spaces with a meaning)
21:02 sm it's standard markdown and more readable when reading the text file, but maybe so
21:03 onetom sm: yes and no. i would say pepole wouldnt get to this page to read it from top to bottom, but found it via some search engine, in which case they would just cmd-f on the page to find the right section anyway
21:03 onetom sure, it's standard markdown, i know, it's just not the best thing to use and also there were no need for it at the end anyway
21:04 sm onetom: looks good, pulled, thank you!
21:04 onetom awesome
21:05 sm sometimes these files (like README) are supposed to work for non web viewing too, so I got in the habit. No biggie
21:05 sm afk a little
21:07 onetom i agree w the hiliting the symptoms too, but it also quite valuable to have nice url-s. in this case the 2 goals contradict a bit...
21:07 onetom i did it mostly so that i can close close my comments in the issue tracker with a pointer to http://hub.darcs.net/simon/hub.darcs.net-​docs/FAQ.md#why-ssh-or-darcs-push-to-hub.darcs.net-can-hang
21:11 onetom eh, it's not turning pure urls into <a> tags automatically :( aaanyway. it's not that important
21:13 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
21:15 onetom hmmm… darcs pull hub.darcs.net:OWNER/REPO is not supported?
21:15 onetom im getting
21:15 onetom darcs pull hub.darcs.net:simon/hub.darcs.net-docs
21:15 onetom darcs pull hub.darcs.net:simon/hub.darcs.net-docs
21:16 onetom this: /home/darcsden/users/onetom/simon/​hub.darcs.net-docs//_darcs/format: canonicalizePath: does not exist (No such file or directory)
21:21 onetom im wondering how can i update my forked repo
21:21 alexei___ joined #darcs
21:22 onetom not that there is anything to update in it, just in theory, so i can teach others
21:23 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
21:29 Heffalump sm: so one problem I see with just replacing CouchDB for the repo data is migration - particularly on hub.
21:32 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
21:38 onetom Heffalump: abstract away the storage then? insert an api between couch and hub, then create an fs implementation for that api
21:39 Heffalump onetom: yeah, that was sort of where I was going with the conversation
21:40 Heffalump but I want a sense of where to go long-term too
21:41 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
21:42 onetom u know about this then, right? http://blog.8thlight.com/mike-ebert/2​013/03/23/the-repository-pattern.html
21:43 onetom uncle bob is pushing the "database is an implementation detail" approach still very strongly
21:48 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
21:58 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
21:59 sm onetom: I think the FAQ covers that pull issue, you can't access other users' repos via ssh unless you are a member
22:00 sm pull http://hub.darcs.net/simon/blahblah will work
22:01 sm Heffalump: I guess let's take it a step at a time
22:02 sm maybe we think of the filesystem as primary and the db (couch or whatever) as an optional accelerator used by large installations
22:09 onetom sm: and are you familiar w the repository pattern?
22:10 onetom i found it really really useful to add this extra layer inbetween storage and application data model
22:10 sm ehhh.. yes
22:10 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
22:10 sm we would like to have that, but also we must juggle very scarce resources so it's a matter of what's most bang for the buck
22:11 onetom what resource, human developer resource?
22:11 sm eg are there realistically going to be many people running darcsden instances with different dbs, and is that the most important feature to spend time on
22:11 sm yup
22:12 sm if we keep that pattern in mind as we enhance and fix things, we'll probably end up implementing it
22:12 Heffalump sm: I think really removing couchdb is more effort than abstracting it, so I'll do that :-)
22:13 onetom it kind of withholds potential developers usually if they have to struggle with the basic installation and it takes a lot of download time to pull together the dependencies, etc
22:13 onetom usually the test suite is a lot slower too - if there is any - because it depends on a real database
22:13 sm Heffalump: also removing it is more effort than letting in continue to work with no problems so I did that :-)
22:14 onetom but im just saying it in general. i had very little exposure to couch around 2009 when it was still beta. i was replacing it w relational db...
22:17 Heffalump onetom: yeah, that's why I don't like couchdb
22:17 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
22:17 Heffalump the installation hassle, that is
22:17 sm it's a lot easier than postgres, no ?
22:17 Heffalump also, I have a vision of everything being version controlled including patch submissions and the issue database
22:17 Heffalump sm: that's not saying much :-)
22:17 onetom but nothing is easier than no db at all
22:17 sm postgres can be a nightmare (authentication)
22:18 Heffalump having to install both redis and couchdb was quite off putting
22:18 mtp i just use the builtin unix authentication
22:18 mtp shrug
22:18 sm don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to have a good old psql prompt
22:18 onetom :) i would say mysql is even more nightmareish
22:18 mtp mysql isn't even a database
22:18 mtp :)
22:18 sm anyway, no argument, +1 for making the db an optional requirement at least for developers
22:19 onetom but the thing is in most architectures there is no need for authentication..
22:19 mtp there's always sqlite for the easy case
22:19 onetom mtp: sorry, ah :)
22:19 sm mtp: right, if we used persistent we could allow a choice of rdbms
22:19 * mtp nods
22:19 onetom exactly, i prefer sqlite too
22:20 sm sqlite for single-user installations
22:20 onetom it can serve quite a huge load actually
22:20 Heffalump would persistent abstract both redis and couch?
22:20 onetom not really
22:20 sm I don't think persistent has a redis interface
22:20 sm redis is used for handling high-write data (session info)
22:20 onetom u need thousands of repos to have maybe a few hundred active users and even then they probably do 10-20 push a day...
22:21 sm it's even less hassle than couch, I've literally never touched it
22:21 sm but sure, make that optional too
22:21 onetom a single sqlite process can laughably can serve that
22:22 sm I heard sqlite isn't robust with concurrent workloads
22:22 mtp it's slow with concurrent writes
22:22 mtp iirc
22:22 onetom if you start to have more active users, let's talk. i can pull in some investors and we can finance a quick development aimed at scaling
22:22 sm hmm
22:23 onetom but u dont need concurrent writes really...
22:23 onetom currently the ssh authentication takes seconds
22:23 onetom and it's perfectly acceptable
22:24 onetom (well not really, but practically most people dont expect it to be faster, because it's good enough)
22:24 onetom so if u should wait an extra half-1 second on some operations then it's fine
22:24 onetom just look at githubs response times
22:24 sm I don't think so
22:24 sm darcs hub wants to be as robust and fast as possible. It's good for darcs
22:25 sm github is too slow
22:25 onetom but most time is spent doing darcs operations, isnt it?
22:25 onetom thats really the bottleneck
22:25 sm I mean, they're getting DDOSed and serving a million page views per second, but still :)
22:25 onetom (i guess… i havent looked into darcsden itself yet of course)
22:26 onetom exactly. they are shitty slow, BUT it's totally acceptable still
22:26 sm onetom: that's right. Still darcs hub's goal is to provide a responsive UI even if darcs operations are slow
22:26 Heffalump sm: it (redis) is more hassle on Windows :-)
22:27 sm Heffalump, I believe that
22:27 onetom oh, how come? redis is as simple as a marble ball...
22:27 onetom windows is the hassle under redis...
22:27 Heffalump onetom: well, yes, but that doesn't change the end result
22:28 Heffalump it requires a separate project to run it as a Windows service, was the main issue
22:28 onetom sm: so what is stored in couchdb now?
22:28 Heffalump I have been obsessively trying to make both darcsden and gitit run as services so they are always available on my laptop.
22:28 onetom just point me to some docs
22:28 sm onetom: repo and user metadata
22:29 onetom repo?
22:29 sm repository
22:29 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
22:29 onetom u mean whats normally stored in the _darcs directory is getting stored in couchdb by darcsden?
22:29 sm Heffalump I'm glad you're hacking on it
22:30 sm onetom: well more webapp oriented things, like the repo description, owner, members, private flag etc.
22:30 onetom Heffalump: why is it good to have darcsden on a laptop as opposed to just using darcs from the command line?
22:30 sm but there is some duplication yes, which sometimes allows bugs, eg a repo exists in db but not on filesystem
22:31 Heffalump shiny web GUI!
22:31 Heffalump I want to migrate the darcs bug tracker to darcsden, for one thing
22:31 onetom sm: those things doesnt change often, so i dont see a write heavy use case here
22:32 * sm backs away from the crazy person
22:33 sm not you onetom
22:33 onetom Heffalump: what is the most used gui feature?
22:33 Heffalump none yet :-)
22:33 Heffalump well, not locally.
22:33 onetom Heffalump: imean which provides the most value over command line?
22:33 sm onetom: for me, it's the changes page and nicely rendered diffs
22:33 Heffalump repository and patch browsing is a good start, but I don't use them much in practice
22:34 onetom ok… u said "on my laptop" so i assumed u r not using it as a network server
22:34 Heffalump onetom: correct
22:34 onetom ok
22:34 Heffalump but I have multiple repos locally to keep track of
22:34 Heffalump with better analysis of the relationships between those repos, I think a graphical interface is a big win
22:34 onetom so u want to track which one is forked from which one, right?
22:34 Heffalump yeah, and what's different in each
22:35 Heffalump not so much the "where did I actually fork this from" but more "given the thing I currently say is the parent, what's the differences"
22:35 onetom how do u do that from the command line?
22:36 onetom do a pull --dry-run ?
22:36 Heffalump usually I use push and pull and then don't actually do anything
22:36 Heffalump yes
22:36 onetom okay, we have similar pains then
22:37 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
22:38 onetom sm: how big is the current couchdb backup on hub.darcs.net?
22:39 sm http://hub.darcs.net/simon/darc​sden/browse/src/DarcsDen/State has what's stored in couch btw
22:39 sm uh.. not too big
22:39 sm where would I see that
22:40 sm 66M in /var/lib/couchdb/1.0.1
22:41 sm onetom: you may want to set up your own instance to test with.. it's fun
22:41 onetom how many times can u write it to a disk per second?
22:41 sm I have no idea
22:43 onetom on a spinning disk maybe just 1 time per second
22:43 onetom but on ssd probably 10 times a second
22:44 sm hmm, if I'm going to spend the day in here I should finish looking at bsrk's gsoc patches
22:44 onetom so if u would keep the current 288 users in memory with all their repo metadata, u still could serve 10 concurrent _write_ requests per second by dumping the whole in memory db to disk without thinking
22:44 sm I think the session data is usually high write because it's updated on each request
22:45 onetom but that u can store in memory
22:45 sm I agree that we are not near any limit yet and hopefully not for a while
22:45 sm and yes you can imagine running this whole thing in memory pretty easily. We could switch to acid-state for an in memory db
22:46 sm except this is a vps and memory is usually the scarcest resource. darcs needs a lot
22:46 Heffalump onetom: the question that really matters is not "what's the right thing to do if starting from scratch" but "what's the right thing to do starting from the current design"
22:46 onetom but sessions doesnt
22:46 sm but I'm sure we can get more memory if people keep using this
22:46 mizu_no_oto joined #darcs
22:46 onetom im just chewing a bit on this topic, because i did a lot of optimizations and it's in my blood
22:47 sm yes I can tell :)
22:47 sm excellent
22:47 Heffalump onetom: btw, another goal for darcsden is to make it be a local UI in a specific repository
22:47 idnar joined #darcs
22:48 onetom i dont really understand what do u mean by that
22:48 sm it works (or should) in single repo, single user multi repo, or multi user mode
22:48 mtp joined #darcs
22:48 sm so you could use it as a darcs gui for your local repo
22:48 Heffalump we want darcs to have things like gitk/git-gui, and we felt that launching a web browser + a single repo darcsden was the cheapest way to get that
22:48 sm $ darcs gui
22:49 Heffalump sm: I hadn't realised it had a single repo mode
22:49 onetom fossil style
22:49 onetom ?
22:50 sm Heffalump: I might be wishfully exaggerating
22:50 sm yes fossil style would be rather nice
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