Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #darcs, 2015-10-08

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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14:56 gh_ hi
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16:26 Heffalump hi
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20:01 Heffalump following on from http://irclog.perlgeek.de/darcs/2015-10-02#i_11310828, we have a new VM now running jessie and I'm going to get on with setting it up, and will then think about migration. I may take the opportunity to change some of the way things are done if there are any opportunities for simplification/modernisation/cleaning up cruft.
20:02 sm +1! go Heffalump
20:03 Heffalump (this is the machine that hosts darcs.net and wiki.darcs.net, but *not* hub.darcs.net, so that won't be affected at all)
20:07 * Heffalump thinks about devops-y options a bit - not really familiar with the landscape though
20:22 sm Heffalump: in what sense ?
20:23 * sm has recently learned icinga is good for monitoring/alerts
20:30 Heffalump configuration mainly
20:30 Heffalump I'm just looking at ansible as a friend mentioned it a while back
21:07 sm sounds like overkill for just one machine.. but there's also propellor
21:07 sm https://propellor.branchable.com/
21:08 Heffalump the main reason I'm thinking of it is that it'd give us an easier way to migrate again in future
21:08 sm yes, some kind of declarative config would be nice
21:08 Heffalump hmm, so I'd get to use Haskell, but would have to use git :-)
21:08 sm heheh
21:09 sm you should anyway, it will make you a (even) better darcs dev
21:09 Heffalump you're right in principle, and I do use it occasionally. But it takes the fun out of version control.
21:10 sm feel the power of the daark side... join uss.. :)
21:10 sm not for me, any more, I must say - I more or less enjoy it now
21:11 sm maybe someone else could do the git cloning :)
21:11 sm oh I see, it uses git for more than that
21:12 Heffalump the other thing is that I'd end up wanting to write a Darcs backend :-)
21:12 sm yes clearly you'd have to do that :)
21:13 sm it's probably the one I'm going to try when I get to it though.. joeyh makes good stuff, and haskell means less new stuff to hold in my head
21:13 Heffalump well, it saves you learning syntax/basic semantics, but you still have to learn an API/DSL
21:14 sm yes.. but also should save having to learn and feed another packaging/distribution system
21:14 sm this is all in my head of course
21:15 sm if you were to try it, I'd know if it's true :)
21:15 Heffalump so: +haskell, -git, +looks nice, -not as widely used as ansible
21:16 sm there's also http://saltstack.com/community/ , an ansible competitor I think
21:16 sm woah, fancy corporate site.. they must have some $$
21:18 Heffalump saltstack seems a bit more heavyweight, e.g. there's some kind of "master"
21:18 sm yes.. IIRC ansible is the one that needs only ssh access on the remote machines, eh
21:18 Heffalump I guess I'll be able to easily debug/fix propellor problems.
21:19 Heffalump That's one huge problem I have with nixos, I just don't really understand it.
21:19 sm yeah. Usability/docs wise it always sounds like a bit of a horror-show
21:20 sm not something that would accelerate the Darcs project IMHO
21:20 sm well, except you'd probably attract some nixos fiend to help maintain it
21:21 Heffalump I wasn't considering nixos for darcs.net
21:21 sm phew
21:22 Heffalump though despite the usability issues with the language/packaging, I'm quite happy with it for my own computer
21:22 sm ack, so you *are* the nixos fiend
21:22 sm cool
21:25 maerwald it's not just usability issues, it's consistency, QA and security issues
21:25 Heffalump tell it like it really is, eh? :-)
21:26 maerwald the nix PM is fine, but the distro behind it has failed
21:26 sm systemd is also a kind of declarative system configurator, right ? Maybe it's installable ?
21:26 Heffalump "failed" seems extreme, it has plenty of users and activity
21:27 maerwald Heffalump: no one uses it for what they thought might be the main use case: servers
21:27 Heffalump sm: systemd is the standard in Debian now, AFAIK
21:27 maerwald instead people use containers to control complexity
21:27 Heffalump I'm sure someone I know said they were using it (+nixops) for servers at their startup
21:28 maerwald sounds awful... rebooting just because your configuration is invalid
21:28 Heffalump it's certainly not very successful in the space compared to containers, of course. Like Haskell, Darcs, etc :-)
21:28 maerwald if the configuration of my updated container is invalid, I just use the old one with a downtime of ~10s
21:29 sm what's missing from systemd that ansible would provide ?
21:29 Heffalump sm: so if I understand the stateless model of ansible/propellor, I can use them for a bit, then stop and the machine will keep its state and I can just update it by hand.
21:29 Heffalump I thought systemd was basically an initscript replacement? Or is it way more if you use it right?
21:29 maerwald and usability wise... the configuration model has (except for the very core system) almost zero consistency... you have to read random forums posts and pastebins in order to figure out how to configure something
21:30 maerwald that's because people are so thrilled to add new features and packages that they don't give a single thought about exactly that: consistency (and maintainability)
21:31 maerwald it'll be very very hard work to reverse this process and I am pretty sure it will not happen, that's why I consider it "failed"
21:31 sm I think systemd is (very) sophisticated at steering your system towards the desired state, based on events (like upstart)
21:32 sm eg you declare the services you want up, and their dependencies, and it makes it happen
21:32 sm darcs-control those service files, done ? maybe
21:32 Heffalump sm: so that'll get the right daemons running, but not static config so much, AFAIK
21:33 Heffalump and putting config files directly under VC has a classic problem of dealing with OS updates
21:33 Heffalump of course you can do a three-way merge etc
21:33 sm ansible config files will have the same problem with ansible updates
21:34 Heffalump no more so than Haskell source files have with GHC updates (and probably rather less given the current churn in the Haskell world)
21:34 Heffalump because there's a clearer separation between what comes with the system and the things the user chooses
21:36 sm I guess some experiments are in order ? it will be interesting, whatever you try
21:37 Heffalump do you agree with my understanding that its safe to try propellor and then just stop using it and move on manually if it doesn't work out?
21:38 sm definitely, I can't imagine there being no way out
21:39 Heffalump it's more the point about the way out being "just stop using it"
21:39 sm worst case you wipe it's evil .git/ and just start again from where we are now
21:39 sm well, and there are backups I suppose
21:40 sm for maximum fun, you could try managing www, wiki and bugs with propellor, ansible, & another :)
21:41 Heffalump hmm, so one awkward thing: if you use propellor it defaults to using a single git repo in your home dir for all hosts.
21:41 sm I didn't quite get your point about static config btw
21:43 Heffalump which point?
21:43 sm <Heffalump> sm: so that'll get the right daemons running, but not static config so much, AFAIK
21:43 sm about systemd
21:43 Heffalump e.g. the user accounts
21:44 sm I see.. so systemd is more limited in what it manages than something like ansible
21:44 Heffalump that's my sense of it from very limited investigation
21:44 sm yes it sounds right
21:45 sm what would you need declarative config of users for ?
21:45 Heffalump so I can keep them in version control
21:45 sm huh
21:45 Heffalump and so I can redeploy them to a new host if we migrate
21:46 sm you are expanding my horizons

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