Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #kaizendo, 2011-03-31

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
06:50 ssm left #kaizendo
10:58 sjn shortcircuit: o/
10:59 sjn shortcircuit: what brings you to these parts? :)
13:35 shortcircuit sjn: It was suggested to me that I talk to you, actually.
13:35 shortcircuit moritz_ informed me you're looking at making customizable textbooks.
13:35 shortcircuit I run rosettacode.org, and that's the prinicple revenue path I've wanted to pursue.
13:35 shortcircuit *principle
13:36 sjn aah
13:37 sjn cool
13:37 * sjn likes rosettacode.org
13:37 shortcircuit I've been aware that students whose curriculums involve programming languages face a recurring problem.
13:38 shortcircuit They learn one programming language their first year, but their second-year instructors teach higher-level concepts in another language, which the students are assumed to already be competent in.
13:38 sjn just one? ^^
13:38 sjn right
13:39 shortcircuit To solve that neatly, I was hoping to find some way to get a school-targeted book in the school's bookstore.
13:40 * sjn talked with moritz too (and masak and allison), about spending some time writing a programming intro book that uses Perl6
13:40 * sjn likes that idea mostly because of Perl6's aims to cover so many different programming concepts
13:40 sjn it makes a nice basis for learning other languages
13:42 * sjn thinks your thoughts woulf fit quite neatly into that :)
13:42 sjn would*
13:42 sjn although, I have to admit I have another agenda in addition to this. :)
13:43 sjn and that's to get kaizendo up and running as part of an effort like this
13:43 shortcircuit I don't think you'll get too many volunteers without personal motives. :)
13:44 shortcircuit But it's all good, when everyone's motives can be satisfied. :)
13:44 sjn well, my goal is to introduce the concept of "individually customizable textbooks"
13:45 sjn and build the tool that makes those manageble to write
13:45 shortcircuit i.e. per-student?
13:45 sjn shortcircuit: yes
13:45 sjn but the thing is, that when one says "individually customizable", it can mean so many things
13:46 sjn and your approach is a quite valid one withing that concept :)
13:47 shortcircuit Heh
13:47 sjn the reverse is true too :)
13:48 shortcircuit Actually, I was looking more in the direction of instructor-designed or TA-designed books for their bookstore.
13:48 shortcircuit How many of you in here have academic backgrounds?
13:48 * sjn isn't aware of the term "TA-designed"
13:49 shortcircuit TA == Teacher's Assistant
13:49 * sjn has a few years at the Unis in Trondheim and Oslo
13:49 sjn aah
13:49 shortcircuit At some colleges, the instructor doesn't grade papers, the TAs do. The TAs are going to be the ones who know where the students are having trouble.
13:49 sjn sveinns has a master in applied mathematics, and is a math teacher
13:50 shortcircuit I've got a friend in #rosettacode who was a TA at RIT for several years. I was a student tutor at my local community college for five years.
13:50 sjn shortcircuit: in short, you should assume "we've been to college" :)
13:50 sjn don't know if that makes us academics, though
13:51 shortcircuit Sure. I was more specifically wondering how many have backgrounds teaching or tutoring roles.
13:51 shortcircuit *backgrounds in
13:51 sjn ah
13:51 sjn sveinn's the one with that experience
13:51 * sjn comes more from the programming/open source side
13:52 shortcircuit k
13:52 sjn t0m is the same,
13:52 shortcircuit Well, a note on RC. It's all GFDL 1.2-licensed.
13:52 sjn ok?
13:53 sjn (as in, "that's nice, but why is that important atm?")
13:53 shortcircuit If you want to use content from RC (and I hope you do; it's a great repository), then license requirements of GFDL 1.2 apply.
13:53 sjn right
13:54 sjn shortcircuit: I'll keep that in mind :)
13:54 sjn although, our current task is to get some working webservice up and running
13:54 * shortcircuit nods
13:55 sjn I'd love to try out the concept on RC, but that's still some time in the future :)
13:55 shortcircuit I wish I hadn't gone with GFDL back when I set up RC. CC-By would have been a much better license.
13:55 sjn shortcircuit: why not switch?
13:55 sjn cc-by-sa would be better, imo
13:56 * sjn is a copyleft fan :)
13:56 shortcircuit sjn: It's not my code; it's licenced _to_ me under GFDL 1.2 by the thousands of people who've edited the wiki over the last four years.
13:56 sjn ah
13:57 sjn shortcircuit: if I were you, I'd have a chat with the fellows at the SFLC to see if there's a way out of GFDL
13:57 sjn if it's important to you, of course
13:57 shortcircuit There was, but I missed it.
13:58 sjn "missed it"? o_O
13:58 shortcircuit There was a brief time window of a few months when the GFDL was revised to support a transition to a Creative Commons license.
13:58 shortcircuit That was done so that Wikipedia could get out from under it.
13:59 sjn ah
13:59 shortcircuit I missed the window; That summer, I was regularly working 45-50 hour weeks at my day job, and taking care of an invalid family member at home.
14:00 sjn and your license isn't of the "GDFL 1.x or later type", so you can't wait for an 1.3 that would open for that again..
14:00 shortcircuit 1.3 was that window.
14:00 sjn right
14:01 sjn too bad the license isn't an "or later" license then :-/
14:02 sjn anyhoo, did you have something specific in mind with kaizendo? :)
14:03 shortcircuit Nothing specific; it seems we have similar product vehicle thoughts, I have content and a need for revenue, and you're putting together a system to support the product vehicle.
14:04 sjn mm
14:04 shortcircuit Nothing stops you from using my content under the terms of the GFDL, but if you wind up with a revenue model, some contribution would be nice. Of course, not necessary.
14:05 shortcircuit When I was thinking hard about this kind of thing, I was looking for a POD publisher that I could programmatically control.
14:05 shortcircuit Ideally, I'd sell at least one physical copy, and then I'd be required to put the electronic form up somewhere for permanent hosting.
14:06 shortcircuit I never found a programmatically-controllable POD publisher, though, and life and priorities shifted again.
14:06 sjn my aim is first and foremost to create a platform for 1) creating aspects (that's the "individually customizable" bit) and 2) enable a much tighter feedback loop between the authors/editors and the readers/volunteers (that's the bit that makes the writing task managable)
14:07 shortcircuit With RC, we implemented Semantic MediaWiki about a year ago in order to make the 'aspects' side of things possible.
14:08 shortcircuit Ideally, you should be able to build a view of content with the right SMW query, once all the appropriate templates are created and the data is properly divided and indexed.
14:08 sjn right
14:08 shortcircuit However, the learning curve for pulling that off in SMW has been beyond the free time and interest of the majority of my volunteers.
14:09 sjn seems to me you took a more complicated path than what I'm doing
14:09 shortcircuit I chose not to go with a roll-your-own solution, because I needed assurance that I wasn't the only one dependent on the code; there's no way I'd be able to provide the necessary maintenance to ward off security problems and other bitrot.
14:10 shortcircuit http://rosettacode.org/blog/2009/​12/why-and-why-not-mediawiki.html
14:10 * sjn reads
14:11 * sjn chose to start from scratch for many of the reasons you write there
14:12 sjn being able to choose storage representation is really handy, when trying to do something novel :)
14:12 sjn same with APIs
14:13 shortcircuit If you've got the time for it, more power to you.
14:13 sjn shortcircuit: well, if you want to help me a little with kaizendo, I'm sure we can make something together that fits both our needs :)
14:14 * sjn has a little time
14:14 sjn mostly because i chose to
14:14 shortcircuit I haven't been able to average more than an hour a day on RC for the past four years. :-|
14:14 shortcircuit It's been less than that, this year.
14:15 sjn well, every little effort helps
14:17 shortcircuit I can do little more for now than direct your attention to my content as a potential resource. I'm nearing the point where I'll be expanding on a family, so if RC doesn't expand enough to be able to afford an employee, I'm not sure what's going to happen with it.
14:17 sjn ok
14:17 shortcircuit That point is somewhere late 2012, though. Lots of things can happen in the interim.
14:19 sjn mm
14:19 sjn well, hang around if you want to :)
14:19 shortcircuit I'll lurk and listen. :)
14:20 shortcircuit My fiancee calls it kiboizing.
14:20 sjn feel free to recruit people too, if you want to ^^
14:20 sjn or do general motivational speeches
14:20 sjn or something else :)
14:21 shortcircuit I could do a Barcamp talk. :)
14:21 shortcircuit And, actually, I should probably write an RC blog post directing attention your way.
14:22 shortcircuit are you guys planning primarily on hosting content?
14:22 sjn no
14:22 sjn well
14:22 sjn kaizendo is AGPLv3 licensed
14:23 sjn so the answer is "yes" eventually
14:23 sjn but right now, we're looking for the crazy kind of people that would want to help make this happen :)
14:23 sjn we're still in bootstrapping mode :-/
14:24 shortcircuit sjn: Check out something called 'coderaid'
14:24 shortcircuit That may come in handy.
14:25 sjn hm
14:26 * sjn doesn't find anything obviously useful when googling "coderaid"
14:27 shortcircuit And I broke reddit. Yay.
14:29 shortcircuit It's based in a subreddit.
14:29 shortcircuit And I can't find it, either.
14:29 shortcircuit Hm.
14:29 shortcircuit I've been in their IRC channel.
14:29 * shortcircuit looks at his logs
14:29 shortcircuit http://www.reddit.com/r/coderaid
14:30 shortcircuit Also, #coderaid on this network.
14:31 shortcircuit They may be hibernating, though
14:36 sjn looks like it
14:37 sjn looks like one of those "wouldn't it be cool if.." ideas that didn't have a couple of people willing to make it actually work
14:38 sjn ...to spend the time making it work
14:40 sjn <- afk
14:49 shortcircuit They had one raid, IIRC. I think their larger problem was that they used a voting system to choose, and most people wanted to work on different things.
17:36 sjn mm
17:36 sjn motivation is a fiddly thing :)
17:36 sjn and very personal
17:37 sjn only way that model would have worked, is if they had some other motivational force that they could make use of
17:37 sjn e.g. people's need to pay their rent :)

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