Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #marpa, 2014-04-16

| Channels | #marpa index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:08 jeffreykegler joined #marpa
01:48 ilbot3 joined #marpa
01:48 Topic for #marpa is now Logs: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/marpa/today Nopaste: http://scsys.co.uk:8002/marpa Stable release: https://metacpan.org/pod/Marpa::R2 Developer release, 2014-02-14: https://metacpan.org/release/JKEGL/Marpa-R2-2.079_015 Source: https://github.com/jeffreykegler/Marpa--R2
03:47 jeffreykegler1 joined #marpa
05:07 jeffreykegler joined #marpa
05:32 jeffreykegler joined #marpa
06:33 ronsavage joined #marpa
06:46 jeffreykegler joined #marpa
06:47 jeffreykegler Further research indicates that the best way to do "zero-compatibility" releases using libtool is with the -release option.  This actually puts the release into the name of the library rather than into the extension.
06:48 jeffreykegler The official GNU libtool manual says: "In general, you should only use -release for package-internal libraries or for ones whose interfaces change very frequently."
06:49 jeffreykegler In fact, both of these apply to libmarpa -- its current use is 100% package-internal, and that's likely to stay its main use.
06:49 jeffreykegler And while I don't change the interface frequently, I am working on its aggressively, which implies similar trade-offs.
06:50 jeffreykegler The GNU quote is from http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/libtool.html#Release-numbers
07:58 ronsavage joined #marpa
15:18 jeffreykegler joined #marpa
15:20 LLamaRider joined #marpa
15:21 jeffreykegler I've uploaded Marpa-R2 2.085_002 to CPAN.  It has a new version and naming scheme for Libmarpa's shared libraries.  This required changes scattered through the code from top to bottom, as is typical when I try to get anything done with autoconf.
15:21 jeffreykegler In autoconf's defense, its problem domain is *very* hard.
15:22 jeffreykegler Whatever you "code" in autoconf must run on a huge variety of platforms, and this explains some of why every change is so difficult.
15:23 jeffreykegler autoconf could also benefit from a better parser.  m4 is very hard to work with.
15:24 jeffreykegler Marpa-R2 2.085_002 looks good on CPANtesters but, as always, I'm interested in your test results.  Thanks!
15:33 jeffreykegler jdurand: re http://scsys.co.uk:8002/350177 -- don't work in the libmarpa_dist directory.  It should be kept as an untared, pristine version of the distribution.  Marpa::R2 does the actual build in a separate directory: libmarpa_build.
15:38 jeffreykegler I keep libmarpa_dist pristine, because I kept getting permission nits.  You'd think it wouldn't be so hard, but the combination of portably untar'ing, and various permissions schemes really causes problems, problems of infinite variety and differing not just by platform but according to each user's umask preference.  ...
15:41 jeffreykegler My solution is to force everyone to build in a copy.  I can (so far) reliably expect the user to have sufficient permissions on something he's copied.
17:02 shadowpaste "jeffreykegler" at 108.70.208.174 pasted "cp_libmarpa.sh -- copies libmarpa distribution to another directory" (55 lines) at http://scsys.co.uk:8002/351085
17:03 jeffreykegler As my pal shadowpaste has just informed you, I've pasted a script that copies the libmarpa distribution to another directory.  This will go into the distribution in forthcoming releases.
17:06 jeffreykegler It's careful to check errors, and sets permissions to those of the copying user and mod times to the time of the copy.  Any small hacks needed to adjust the distribution on the way out can go into this script.  Right now there don't seem to be any.
18:08 jdurand joined #marpa
18:20 jdurand Re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/marpa/2014-04-16#i_8598286 - hmmm does not fit exactly what debian would expect but why not - I see it is on github - would you mind to add it to the CPAN tarball as well
18:21 shadowpaste "jdurand" at 88.160.190.154 pasted "shell paste" (18 lines) at http://scsys.co.uk:8002/351137
18:22 jdurand quoted from http://scsys.co.uk:8002/351137: "version 6 is that right ?"
18:24 shadowpaste "jdurand" at 88.160.190.154 pasted "objdump quote" (5 lines) at http://scsys.co.uk:8002/351139
18:47 jeffreykegler judrand: yes "libmarpa-6.0.1.so" is right.
18:50 jeffreykegler jdurand: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/marpa/2014-04-16#i_8598844 -- my objective is to put into Marpa a vanilla mechanism that will allows Marpa "distros" to be customized from it.  To that end, it makes sense to keep the libmarpa/Marpa::R2 environment "standard" and as predictable as possible.  That way in making a (for example) Debian distro, the distro-maker does not find what he needs ready-made ...
18:50 jeffreykegler but does find a predictable environment with "standard" tools.
18:52 jeffreykegler I'm taking autoconf as "standard" because for all its flaws, there is nothing better -- it's open-source, documented, much-covered on Stack overflow, available on and targeting a wide variety of systems, etc., etc.
18:53 jdurand That is ok. when a package is distributed (deb, rpm, etc...) it is always associated with a tarball. Is that ok for you if the libmarpa_dist is distributed as a single fresh new tarball
18:53 jeffreykegler Anyway, so I'd assume there will have to be a good deal more done before this is an acceptable Debian distro.
18:53 jeffreykegler Libmarpa distros are much more than OK with me ... I look forward to them very much.
18:54 jeffreykegler I expect and accept that a distro-maker will have to change things.
18:54 jdurand There will be the problem about the doc. libmarpa_doc_dist. Ok to copy its content in the new tarball as well ? A priori this would be in a doc/ subdir of libmarpa
18:55 jeffreykegler That's one of things I'd expect a distro-maker to consider.
18:55 jeffreykegler That is, adding documentation.
18:55 jdurand No pb - I already did debian packaging in the past - I'll make a template package - do you run debian on your pc?
18:56 jeffreykegler I am Bodhi Linux -- I think that's a Debian.  Is it?
18:57 jdurand Ubuntu-based distro - that should do it, since libmarpa will be definition depend on only... hmmm... let me check!
18:57 jeffreykegler Also, note in making the distro, you don't have to feel restricted to "official" Marpa stuff -- that is stuff of my authorship.
18:58 jdurand libc. About copyright, debian will want your licencing to be compatible with GPL - it is perfectly ok to still have (c) to you -;
18:58 jeffreykegler There's already a Fedora package for Marpa::XS so they found the licensing OK.
18:59 jdurand I mean: it makes sense to have libmarpa on one side providing .a and .so (the .a is usually in the -dev package) - and libmarpa-r2-perl on another side that is the CPAN package
18:59 jeffreykegler Yes, official copyright holder should be Jeffrey Kegler.
18:59 jdurand ok - anyway, they will decide - let me work on that
18:59 jeffreykegler Marpa/libmarpa is mainly LGPL.
19:00 jdurand and since you are ubuntu-based you'll can yourslef install it using synaptics or apt-get
19:00 jeffreykegler The distro is up to the distro-maker to shape, although I may very well have comments on decisions made in creating a distro -- especially as I'll quite possibly be a user of it.
19:01 jdurand Fine, license will be ok. There should be no pb then, except technical ones. I'll give you an url to add when ready
19:02 jeffreykegler Anyway, if you find Marpa::R2/libmarpa presents obstacles to distro creation, especially for as standard a target as Debian, I will treat them as bugs.
19:02 jdurand ok
19:04 jeffreykegler Btw, re the copyright holder ,,, stuff added in the distro may of course have different copyright holders.  It's "Jeffrey Kegler" for libmarpa/Marpa::R2 and stuff of my authorship.
19:07 jdurand No pb, your LICENSE and COPYING.LESSER files will be copied verbatim
19:07 jdurand I'll do i386 packages - is that your platform as well?
19:08 jeffreykegler One of my Bodhi boxes is an i386.
19:10 jdurand ok - I am giving it a shot now
19:10 jeffreykegler I also have an ancient Macbook which is still running Tiger (Mac OS 10.4) on PPC and, last but not least, ...
19:11 jeffreykegler My Raspberry PI, which runs Bodhi on an ARM chip.
19:11 jdurand Bodhi on an an ARM chip is truely exotic -;
19:14 jeffreykegler Correction -- my Pi runs Raspian.
19:37 jeffreykegler jdurand: btw another decision a distro maker may wish to re-visit is my versioning scheme.  It makes a lot of sense for an upstream package to require re-linking in order for changes for effect.  As you move downstream, the reasons for that decision become less powerful.
19:38 jeffreykegler A distro's version does not have to be that of the Libmarpa on which it is based.
19:42 jdurand Yes, I know - not necessary - debian tends to have the library name and they add a +xxx for their changes - we'll see
19:45 jdurand debian wants of these type of license: (apache|artistic|bsd|gpl|gpl2|gpl3|lgpl|lgpl2|lgpl3|mit)
19:45 jdurand yours is closes to which
19:46 jdurand closest
20:09 jeffreykegler lgpl3
20:11 jeffreykegler By the way, are you familiar with the "Debian rpath issue": https://wiki.debian.org/RpathIssue
20:14 jeffreykegler Its seems autoconf/libtool took a strong position on rpath, as did Debian -- unfortunately they were the opposite positions.  My decision for libmarpa is to make it a normal autoconf package, which does nothing to avoid the problem, but does have the advantage that all the various fixes others have found will be useable.
20:15 jeffreykegler AFK -- off to lunch
22:24 ronsavage Marpa::R2 V 2.085002
22:24 ronsavage Counts: Tests: 542. Modules: 8. Passes: 8. Fails: 0
22:24 ronsavage Duration: 1 minute and 40 seconds
23:36 jeffreykegler joined #marpa
23:37 jeffreykegler ronsavage: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/marpa/2014-04-16#i_8600284 -- thanks!

| Channels | #marpa index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary