Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #marpa, 2014-07-28

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
06:12 ronsavage joined #marpa
11:18 ronsavage joined #marpa
14:19 jeffreykegler joined #marpa
14:47 jeffreykegler Wikipedia recently adopted Lua as its templating language, and their reasoning followed a similar process.
14:47 Aria Nice.
14:47 jeffreykegler http://developers-beta.slashdot.org/s​tory/12/02/01/1429229/wikipedia-choos​es-lua-as-its-new-template-language
14:48 jeffreykegler They found that their templating system was "evolving" into a programming language, and not a very good one.
14:50 jeffreykegler They looked at various alternatives, and Lua emerged the winner.
14:52 Aria Smart folks.
14:59 jeffreykegler I'm looking at my first serious choice here Lua 5.1 versus 5.2
14:59 jeffreykegler 5.2 is the latest stable, but the much-appluaded LuaJIT supports Lua 5.1.
15:01 jeffreykegler The LuaJIT, on its many supported architectures, is said to provide 5x speedup.
15:03 jeffreykegler And the LuaJIT author says: "Upgrading to be compatible with 5.2, just for the
15:03 jeffreykegler sake of a higher version number, is neither a priority nor a
15:03 jeffreykegler sensible move for most LuaJIT users."
15:03 jeffreykegler "Lua 5.2 provides few tangible benefits."
15:04 Aria Yeah, 5.1
15:04 jeffreykegler 5.1, you say?
15:04 Aria Yeah. I ran into this in packaging a bunch of lua stuff for the PLD distro.
15:05 jeffreykegler Besides the obvious LuaJIT advantage, what are the other reasons?
15:05 Aria 5.1 was MUCH more depended-upon, and they tried to uppatch things. 5.2 is not well adopted, and different for no particular reason.
15:05 Aria It really was just a lot of work for the sake of a version number -- and LuaJIT is definitely a neat thing.
15:05 jeffreykegler Are there micro versions of 5.1?
15:06 Aria That I don't know.
15:06 Aria I only looked at it from a high level -- that lua made a break in compatibility that people didn't particularly follow.
15:06 jeffreykegler Looks like the latest is 5.1.5.
15:07 jeffreykegler OK. I may as well fall back to 5.1 now.
15:08 jeffreykegler Btw, in packaging Lua with Marpa, I plan to change the prefix from lua*_ to marpa_lua*_.
15:09 jeffreykegler to be compatible with those apps already using Lua, or which want or need a different version.
15:09 jeffreykegler An alternative is to rely on library interposition, but that's kind of scary.
15:10 Aria Ugh, yeah.
15:10 Aria Private copy ++
15:10 jeffreykegler Particular, when interposition goes wrong, it is very hard to figure out the problem.  It can go wrong silently and easily, and work for the most part, only to surface in some indirect, weird way.
15:12 jeffreykegler Good.  Others (particular those who are Lua-wise) please chime in.
15:12 Aria Yeah, it goes WRONG when it goes wrong.
15:12 Aria Insidiously.
15:12 Aria And lua doesn't have a disciplined versioning approach to solve this.
15:12 jeffreykegler I may post Lua 5.1 versus 5.2 to the G+ mailing list, as a question, to get more input.
15:13 jeffreykegler And to alert folks that this Kollos/Lua thing is getting less tentative every day.
15:19 jeffreykegler Btw, as context for the Unicode regression issue -- Wikipedia of course relies on UTF-8 heavily, and Lua seems to work for them just fine -- they add a new string library: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/03/14/what-​lua-scripting-means-wikimedia-open-source/
15:19 Aria Nice.
15:22 jeffreykegler Reading up, Wikipedia seems to have gone with a (hacked) Lua 5.1.
16:08 jeffreykegler I just announced that Marpa::R2 is going into "stabler" mode.  This to assure Marpa::R2 users that the shift in development efforts will not mean any bugs get a lower priority.
16:09 jeffreykegler They should be better off, in fact.  They will now be far more safe from regressions introduced when I add new features, because Marpa::R2 will see few of those, or none.
16:17 jeffreykegler I think I see the answer to what Lua version to use with LuaJIT -- LuaJIT *is* a Lua version, not an add-on.  It is compatible with 5.1
16:17 Aria Yeah.
16:19 jeffreykegler This explains a number of other mysteries -- like why CPAN support for Lua 5.1 seems excellent, but support for 5.2 is basically non-existent.
16:20 Aria Yup.
16:30 jeffreykegler I just installed LuaJIT, using CPAN's Alien::LuaJIT.  It is *NICE* not to have to write all my own build tools.
16:32 jeffreykegler With LuaJIT, Marpa::R3's semantics could become scary fast.
16:34 jeffreykegler This also means no need for the lua*_ to marpa_lua*_ prefix renaming -- Kollos will use an external, vanilla, LuaJIT.
16:34 Aria "not my problem" ++
21:01 jdurand_ joined #marpa
21:02 jdurand_ Re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​marpa/2014-07-28#i_9092297 - if I read well the bloc, this is https://git.wikimedia.org/raw/mediawiki%​2fextensions%2fScribunto.git/HEAD/engine​s%2fLuaCommon%2flualib%2fmw.ustring.lua that is noting else but deviating unicode from Lua to PHP callbacks - it solves nothing
21:02 jdurand_ "the blog"
21:04 jdurand_ Nevertheless, the choice of Lua itself is good and I second it -; Unicode question is just a userspace thing, the reason to adopt it, as you explain, is by replacing Marpa'VM by Lua's VM - and that is very good
21:09 jdurand_ Finally, let's close this unicode question by not adopting what Wikipedia has done, but by using the extremely portable and fool proofed ICU library.
21:09 jdurand_ There is lua binding (search for ICU4Lua),do not know its status
23:30 jeffreykegler joined #marpa
23:31 jeffreykegler jdurand: Sound fine re Unicode
23:32 jeffreykegler One of my hopes is that this change will mean that Unicode issues are dealt with a level up from the Marpa level.
23:33 jeffreykegler I spent a lot of time with Marpa::R2 on Unicode, and it really began to look like an endless pit into which to sink time and effort.
23:34 jeffreykegler Usually I find the Perl 6 folks insightful, but on this issue they are deeply committed to the opposite approach where a specific approach to Unicode is hard-wired into the language at a very deep level.
23:54 jeffreykegler1 joined #marpa
23:56 jeffreykegler1 By the way, they'll be transitioning my Internet service over the next days (weeks?).  Hopefully everything will go without a hitch, but if I'm unreachable for a time, that might be why.

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