Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #marpa, 2015-12-01

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:24 JPGainsborough Did you find the Parrot parsing tools to be particularly good? I was surprised that they just abandoned parrot and decided to move to something else completely
00:25 JPGainsborough They issue a new parrot release now and then still, I have no idea who uses it
00:28 JPGainsborough perhaps parrot is great software and Rakudo made a mistake
00:36 Idiosyncrat JPGainsborough: frankly, no
00:37 Idiosyncrat I was particularly annoyed that the docs were not clear about the limits of parser.
00:38 Idiosyncrat It's become a kind of parsing tradition to only talk about cases where the parser works, and leave it to the users to find about the others the hard way.
00:38 Idiosyncrat This is a tradition that I hope the Marpa docs and my blogging honors in the breach.
00:40 Idiosyncrat PGE was a another wrapper for top-down parsing with syntactic sugar.
00:40 Idiosyncrat Like ANTLR or PGE.
00:40 Idiosyncrat s/or PGE/or PEG/
00:41 Idiosyncrat In their defense, if you use the best technology available, then you just face the facts and move on.
00:42 Idiosyncrat ... and with the failure of LALR in practical parsing, top-down seemed to be the only choice.
00:43 Idiosyncrat As always, I want to emphasize that my comment relate to Parrot / Perl 6 *only* in the context of their potential for language extensibility and
00:43 Idiosyncrat language-driven programming.
00:44 Idiosyncrat There's a lot of unconstructive Perl 6 / Parrot bashing that I don't want to associate myself with.
00:44 Idiosyncrat AFAIK, by the way, PGE just got abandoned.  Anybody out there know otherwise?
00:57 ronsavage Could PEG have been abandoned due to Marpa?
00:59 Idiosyncrat I very much doubt it
01:00 ronsavage I ask seriously because /something/ must have made its users see the light.
01:01 Idiosyncrat I have thought I've noticed the Perl 6 team backing away from parsing and language-driven programming ...
01:02 Idiosyncrat but I am 99.9999% percent certain this is because of the new focus on deadlines.
01:03 Idiosyncrat I think it got abandoned in the same way that LALR did.
01:03 Idiosyncrat ANTLR and Marpa both positioned themselves as yacc-killers -- in my first blog posts I talked about that a lot.
01:04 Idiosyncrat But in the end, what killed yacc/bison was the frustrations of its users, and the main beneficiary was hand-written recursive descent.
01:05 Idiosyncrat It sure wasn't Marpa that killed yacc, and I don't think it was ANTLR either.
01:24 JPGainsborough there is a language or two still hosted by Parrot, though it doesnt seem like it gets much use. I thought PGE was an integral part of Parrot, im guessing its still there
01:26 Idiosyncrat Among the Perl 6 developers I have not noticed any talk about PGE, or creating a new Moar-based or JVM-based version of PGE.
01:27 Idiosyncrat I've thought about blogging on top-down parsing -- I already have, but I mean a blog devoted just to what top-down parsing is ...
01:28 Idiosyncrat Top-down parsing is the belief that there is no systematic way to use the right context to assist parsing.
01:29 Idiosyncrat where hackish stuff like lookahead, switching parsers, custom logic, etc., is what I mean by "not systematic"
01:30 Idiosyncrat If you think about it, that's a hard thing to believe -- that looking right in some systematic way cannot be helpful.
01:30 Idiosyncrat This is part of why some academics refuse to stop teaching LALR -- it is hard to believe that LL is as good as you can do.
01:38 JPGainsborough Yes. I havent looked into what they are planning to use for parsing on Moar
01:38 JPGainsborough what they are using, that is
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