Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #moarvm, 2014-05-27

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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21:50 timotimo i wonder how brrt is doing? :)
21:52 * jnthn was wondering that
21:52 jnthn I suggested we do some planning together the other day, but didn't hear back...
21:52 jnthn Still, I guess a spesh post is in the works
21:54 timotimo that's the last i heard
21:56 timotimo also, someone had contacted me via mail who was interested in fixing up the sort thing where we generate a list of integers, sort that and splice the values back together
21:56 timotimo and then they kinda disappeared
21:58 timotimo the grid thing works
21:58 timotimo first attempt already worked
21:58 timotimo this makes me happy
22:04 jnthn \o.
22:04 jnthn */
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22:10 japhb Limb reattachment?
22:10 timotimo jnthn: how impossible do you rate a perl debugger frontend based on GTK::Simple?
22:11 jnthn "fun" :)
22:11 jnthn I don't see any immediate blockers to writing one.
22:12 timotimo it could even debug multi-threaded applications
22:12 jnthn yes :)
22:12 timotimo because you can show multiple things side by side
22:12 jnthn Well, also because can make the navigation more obvious
22:13 jnthn graphical tools have better discoverability-through-use.
22:13 timotimo aye, that they do
22:26 japhb jnthn: Is there currently anything functionality wise (and not JVM specific) that r-j can do that r-m cannot anymore?
22:26 timotimo well, moar sometimes stumbles over its own feet when doing multithreaded stuff
22:27 timotimo who did that mandelbrot example recently?
22:29 japhb From the clog search, I see colomon talking about it
22:29 timotimo OK
22:29 timotimo it gave wrong results when run under moar and correct under jvm
22:29 timotimo also, the results were correct on moar when only single-threaded
22:30 timotimo so there's obviously something stability-wise we're missing
22:30 japhb *sigh*
22:32 jnthn japhb: Well, I think r-j beat r-m to getting async sockets doing binary I/O too, but that's a small patch nobody got around to writing for Moar.
22:33 timotimo oh
22:33 timotimo i wonder why we don't have a (proper) web server demo using async I/O yet
22:33 timotimo like perhaps something with PSGI?
22:34 jnthn I wish folks would have some perspective on Moar threading stuff. The amount of time it's had spent on it is miniscule compared to what the JVM has had. Hell, it's miniscule compared to effort that's been expended on Perl 5 threading over the years, and in various ways it's already more capable.
22:34 timotimo oh
22:34 timotimo right :)
22:34 timotimo i'm just kinda itching to proclaim perl6 the winner of the race to many cores :P
22:35 jnthn I did tell y'all I expected getting this stuff stable to take O(months), not O(weeks)
22:36 * timotimo is going to adjust his expectations
22:36 jnthn We don't have a better-than-my-crappy-one demo of a async I/O web server 'cus nobody wrote it yet ;-)
22:36 timotimo i hear that excuse way too often :P
22:37 timotimo we need more newbies to join our project and do the fun stuff
22:37 jnthn Well, sometimes my "throw a crappy one out there and hope" strategy works.
22:37 jnthn See Gtk::Simple :D
22:37 jnthn timotimo++ # picking that one up
22:37 timotimo i wonder how well we'll be able to do with Cairo
22:37 jnthn Anyway, I've no more conf talks to do until August now. ;)
22:37 timotimo 60fps games on GTK with Cairo rendering? :)
22:38 jnthn So once I get done showing family around this weekend, I should be back to writing code. :)
22:39 jnthn My task list is inlining, fix the promises explosions lizmat++ found, and work on the holes in async cancellation.
22:40 jnthn I *may* do OSR
22:40 timotimo on-stack-replacement! ooooh :)
22:40 jnthn My initial light reading on escape analysis has mostly told me I need to read a bunch more.
22:40 timotimo mhm
22:41 jnthn It's a little bit trickier than I anticipated.
22:42 * jnthn needs to brush up on lattices...
22:43 jnthn Seems abstract interpretation is gonna be involved too.
22:43 jnthn Or maybe I've just yet to find the "here's the easy, effective way" paper :)
22:44 jnthn I suspect I'm just going to have to use my brane though.
22:45 timotimo does abstract interpretation mean we'll have to annotate all our OPs with what effects they have on things?
22:46 jnthn Oh, I already expecting to add escape information to oplist
22:46 timotimo mhm
22:46 jnthn Whatever approach we take.
22:46 timotimo well, it does sound reasonable that we'll need it
23:07 japhb jnthn: FWIW, I *do* have perspective on the threading stuff.  My sigh was more one of "Darn, I still have to keep r-j around" than "Why isn't this perfect yet?"
23:08 japhb And as for why *I* haven't done an async I/O demo ... well, because I've been putting all my spare time into my why-perl6 talk.  Unfortunately it appears I produce slide decks by something approximating the Douglas Adams method.  :-(
23:10 jnthn japhb: Ah, I see. Well, I'm happy to have somebody continuing to use r-j for stuff, so... :P
23:10 colomon note that, while the moar threaded mandelbrot results were *almost* correct.  like maybe 1% of the pixels calculated were wrong.
23:10 jnthn colomon: Yeah...I'll need to play hunt the data race. :)
23:10 timotimo yeah, that makes it even more dangerous
23:10 timotimo because you can sort of think everything's fine unless you look at something as clear as the resulting image
23:10 jnthn I kinda prefer the SEGVs rather than the subtly wrong things... :/
23:11 timotimo if you have only numbers and no clue what the exact result should look like ...
23:11 timotimo yeah
23:12 colomon afk # headed to pub
23:14 japhb Oh, that reminds me ... while preparing https://github.com/japhb/japhb-talks/blob/master/WIP/why-perl6/examples/channels I discovered that forgetting the two .close calls resulted in death at program exit, one of three ways: backtrace, segfault, or (IIRC) a GC error.  It would work just fine until exit and then reliably boom!, but the method of death changed from run to run.
23:18 jnthn Hmmm
23:18 jnthn I was gonna say "ooh, global destruction fail"...
23:18 jnthn ...but we just let the OS tear down the world now by default...
23:42 * japhb is reminded yet again of how much he likes jnthn's threading primitives ... by reviewing some threaded Python code.

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