Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #moarvm, 2014-06-23

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Time Nick Message
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06:55 brrt \o #moarvm
06:56 timotimo o/
06:56 timotimo what's on the menu for today? :)
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07:03 brrt today.... i'm going to fix the inline-jitting bug
07:03 brrt :-)
07:05 timotimo sounds good
07:05 timotimo the last 4 days i haven't paid close attention because of the GPN going on
07:06 brrt the last days i have taken a bit of a 'vacation' :-)
07:06 brrt so there wasn't much to pay attention too
07:07 lizmat joined #moarvm
07:07 brrt i have added support for the notion of 'do something useful with the return value of this function' though, don't know if you've seen that
07:09 timotimo i saw the word "return" be used in commit messages, so i assumed, but i didn't know for sure
07:16 nebuchadnezzar 'morning
07:17 brrt morning
07:17 timotimo hi chad :)
07:18 brrt it means the set of opcodes that can be implemented greatly increases :-)
07:20 nebuchadnezzar can someone provides me a “tree” or “ls -lR” of a MoarVM installation on windows? I'm trying to address issues #102 #103
07:20 FROGGS joined #moarvm
07:20 brrt i... saw your request yesterday, and i think jnthn is perhaps the main windows-user here? i don't have windows installed right now
07:20 woolfy joined #moarvm
07:21 * timotimo can not :(
07:21 timotimo froggs may have a VM maybe?
07:21 timotimo no, wait, doesn't froggs develop on windows and has linux vms?
07:22 FROGGS it is the other way around :o)
07:22 FROGGS I develop on linux, and have a bunch of VMs for testing
07:22 * brrt still has to make a vm of his hdd
07:22 timotimo OK
07:24 brrt fwiw, i recall working with php and not of my coworkers ever having installed php on their windows
07:24 FROGGS but it is damn easy :o)
07:24 timotimo i was a php person once; it started during my windows days; i had a WAMPP :/
07:24 brrt it is very easy indeed
07:24 brrt they didn't do it
07:25 brrt professional programmers, no less
07:25 timotimo does that mean they never locally tested their stuff?
07:25 * FROGGS builds rakudo latest on windows
07:25 brrt we had a shared debian installation accessible via ssh or ... whatsitcalled
07:25 timotimo telnet? :P
07:25 timotimo FTP perhaps? :D
07:25 brrt the-windows-filesharing-thingy
07:26 FROGGS hehe
07:26 brrt no
07:26 timotimo SMZ
07:26 brrt samba :-)
07:26 timotimo SMB*
07:26 timotimo samba is the free implementation
07:26 timotimo ("first word in the dictionary that contains S, M and B in that order")
07:26 brrt anyway, that was enough, they just worked on that machine via SMB file share
07:26 brrt (and moaned without end about it being slow)
07:27 timotimo fair enough; php programs may need some extra setup and you'd have to make extra sure your php.ini is the same as on the remote machine, as well as the apache config
07:27 brrt the more reason to learn how to do that, no?
07:27 xiaomiao well, php
07:27 xiaomiao more effective to push needles under your fingernails ;)
07:27 timotimo i mildly disagree; it can be easy to be developing against a slightly incorrect php/apache/DB setup and mess up *everything*
07:27 brrt more hilariously, the machine was also the router to the external network
07:28 timotimo and if they work on that stuff via SMB, they probably didn't use version control either?
07:28 brrt i haven't seen messing up everything
07:28 brrt oh, they did
07:28 brrt subversion
07:28 brrt over smb
07:28 timotimo OK, that's less bad than i thought
07:28 brrt :-D
07:28 timotimo pretty bad, but not terribly bad.
07:28 brrt no, the no-version-control shop i worked on was also the no-local-installation-ever shop
07:29 brrt 'test it in a subdirectory' that kind of stuff
07:29 timotimo well, suffice to say there's better ways to approach software development
07:29 brrt fortunately
07:31 timotimo most of the time i'm convinced i'm a pretty mediocre programmer, but when i hear these stories i go "there are people like that *employed* out there?!"
07:32 FROGGS hehe
07:32 nebuchadnezzar timotimo: hopefully, I can feel like a god, sometimes ;-)
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07:37 brrt :-) although if you think that, there's an important aspect you're missing out on
07:37 brrt these people are indeed employed, out there
07:37 timotimo and i am not! :P
07:37 brrt therefore, somebody believes they bring some value to the company
07:37 brrt why not? self-employed?
07:38 timotimo more or less; i just changed into a different kind of more-or-less employedness and i don't know what to call it yet
07:38 FROGGS are you married now? O.o
07:38 timotimo i'm in the kind of more-or-less employedness where i do stuff and get money for it, so that's fine
07:38 FROGGS ahh, money, then no :o)
07:39 brrt oh, i see
07:39 brrt so thats not unemployed as i'd count it
07:39 brrt :-)
07:39 timotimo right
07:39 brrt in that regards i think we live in some confusing times
07:40 timotimo but it's not a traditional job type of deal where i go to an office or cubicle daily and work 9/5; and i'm not being paid by the hour
07:41 brrt let me hazard a guess and say you're under 40? :-)
07:41 timotimo that is correct
07:41 timotimo though not under half that
07:42 brrt i'd also guess that
07:42 brrt hmm
07:42 brrt 25?
07:42 timotimo yup
07:42 brrt then.. i'm older than you
07:42 brrt i'm 26
07:43 brrt :-D
07:43 timotimo could be worse :P
07:43 brrt a bit
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07:45 brrt \o lizmat_
07:45 brrt are you in orlando now?
07:51 FROGGS nebuchadnezzar: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/0c4aa629f01c5b1bd097
07:51 FROGGS nebuchadnezzar: that is MoarVM/nqp/rakudo HEAD
07:51 nebuchadnezzar thanks a lot
07:51 FROGGS my MoarVM is in C:\, like my nqp and rakudo is
07:52 FROGGS but only --prefix (C:\nqp\install) matters
07:52 nebuchadnezzar so I understood the setup.pm correctly, the lib is in bin/ ;-)
07:52 FROGGS and, btw, gist has a bug... it added the ten newlines in the gist for me, and I can't edit them away
07:52 timotimo FROGGS: your C:\ must look very messy!
07:53 FROGGS timotimo: no, just these three extra dirs :o)
07:53 FROGGS okay, and strawberry and Perl64...
07:53 timotimo :P
07:53 FROGGS and cygwin64 and panda
07:53 FROGGS :P
07:53 FROGGS nebuchadnezzar: the lib is in bin, aye
07:54 FROGGS that was needed for windows AFAIK
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07:54 FROGGS would be nice to move it elsewhere, and I guess a flag when building the moar executable will do
07:55 nebuchadnezzar but the “elsewhere” must be in some kind of load-path ?
07:55 FROGGS yes, like LD_LIBRARY_PATH on unixes
07:56 brrt perl64 has a confusing name
07:57 brrt and windows doesn't have LD_LIBRARY_PATH :-)
07:57 brrt it just has PATH
07:58 brrt and dynamically-loaded libraries (DLL's, or SO on unix / posix) must also be present in PATH
07:58 brrt which explains why C:\Windows\ is such a mess :-)
07:59 nebuchadnezzar step1: make it works the same but add configuration options ;-)
07:59 FROGGS MAIN_LIBS = /libpath:. moar.dll.lib <-- that is in current Makefile
08:00 FROGGS and I suppose the /libpath wants to be: /libpath:. /libpath:..\lib
08:02 FROGGS brrt: so /libpath is not about finding the lib at runtime?
08:02 brrt hmmmm
08:03 brrt i don't.... think i know the answer to that
08:03 brrt :-)
08:03 FROGGS I mean, on BSDs you distinguish between linktime and runtime... I just don't know what windows does
08:04 brrt i suppose windows does the same, but it is flexible
08:04 brrt i.e. loading dynamic libraries at runtime is a normal thing for windows programs to do
08:04 brrt that said
08:05 brrt i'm only sure about the load order: directory-of-binary, PATH
08:06 FROGGS perhaps I have time to try that later
10:10 jnthn afternoon, #moarvm
10:11 jnthn I was gonna ask brrt if he had any questions, but looks like he's on lucnh break too :
10:11 jnthn :) even
10:11 jnthn grr...my keyboard is getting icky
10:11 jnthn of iffy
10:12 jnthn or "time to call on-site support to our office some day soon"
10:20 brrt joined #moarvm
10:23 jnthn brrt \o/
10:23 jnthn brrt: Got teaching in 2 mins...any questions?
10:24 jnthn ETIMEOUT :
10:24 jnthn bbl
10:26 brrt hi jnthn :-)
10:26 brrt ow, shame
10:30 woolfy brrt: indeed, lizmat and me and TimToady and many others are in Orlando now.
10:31 FROGGS woolfy: lucky you are :o)
10:32 brrt how is the wheather? :-)
10:32 brrt weather
10:34 woolfy The weather is hot and humid, reaching 35+C. Not plesant to walk outdoors.  At night still 18+C..  Indoors there's AC's everywhere.
10:35 woolfy Lucky?  Well...  yeah, we have fun. :-)
10:35 brrt oh yes, florida
10:36 brrt i don't think i could stand the weather there very long, but as you said, AC :-)
10:36 brrt will the talks be broadcast?
10:36 woolfy lizmat and I both have a talk later today. I even have a lightning talk this morning.  Yep, starting the day with lightning talks.  I'm a bit nervous.  I also have to do camera work after the lightning talks start.
10:36 woolfy Yep, all is video-d.
10:37 woolfy I dunno if life broadcast.  There will be very little Perl 6 by the way.
10:40 woolfy life broadcast -> live broadcast...
10:40 brrt i've seen that
10:40 brrt (the small amount of perl6)
10:40 brrt what will you talk about?
10:40 brrt did you bring the camel to the states, too? :-p
10:43 woolfy My talk will be about marketing.  Same talk I did in Utrecht, Poznan, Prague, Paris.  Well, adapted again.
10:43 woolfy Camel and books are here indeed.
10:44 brrt how... even?
10:44 brrt cool, though
10:44 brrt no problem at customs?
10:48 woolfy brrt: simple.  Look at https://www.flickr.com/photos/wendyga/sets/72157644316048078/ and understand...
10:48 woolfy Nope, no problems at customs.  :-)
10:48 brrt small camels :-)
10:49 brrt https://www.flickr.com/photos/wendyga/14026777048/in/set-72157644316048078 lol
10:53 woolfy Many Perl 6!
10:53 woolfy Books and camel: https://www.flickr.com/photos/wendyga/14026862937/in/set-72157644316048078
11:03 timotimo aaw, not much perl6? is perl6 dead? :(
11:06 woolfy Perl 6 is not very rich and its profets did not go over the ocean, or are otherwise occupied.
11:06 woolfy The main prophet is here though.  Yay TimToady.
11:14 cognominal__ Hoping the crossing of the desert is almost over.
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12:59 FROGGS brrt: http://blog.yapcna.org/2014/06/23/yapc-is-streaming-live-on-youtube/
13:00 brrt ooh nice
13:00 FROGGS I don't see the stream though
13:01 brrt which ones are recent?
13:01 brrt no me neither
13:05 * brrt wonders what effect 'perl6 is faster than perl5' will have
13:05 brrt a result for which we might have to extend the summer a bit, but who minds
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13:51 FROGGS about speed of P5/P6, I guess it will be like shock => disbelieving => ignorance, and a few more interested people who turned in the other direction at step #2
13:53 brrt i hope so
13:54 FROGGS but let's get fast first :o)
13:54 FROGGS (and bugfree)
14:04 cognominal__ that was short
14:05 FROGGS LIVE: https://www.youtube.com/user/yapcna/featured
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14:33 brrt bugfree, first :-)
14:41 nwc10 no-one is going to switch from Perl 5 to Perl 6 because of speed
14:42 nwc10 if they want speed, other already faster languages exist
14:42 nwc10 just need to be fast "enough"
14:42 nwc10 I think that the first head turner/mindshare grabber is going to be concurrency
14:43 nwc10 stuff you simply *can't do* in Perl 5, at any speed.
14:51 brrt tbh, i don't think a lot of perl5 folks are still going to switch to perl6, because if you're still writing perl5 by now, you're probably heavily invested in it
14:52 brrt exception - if you think something like mojo is really cool, which i do
14:56 _sri nwc10: actually, for me personally comparable performance to perl5 is very important (faster is nice, but i don't care too much about that)
15:00 brrt i think performance is important
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15:09 jnthn Well, single thread speed being within a factor of 2 + run on 4 threads = 2 times faster... :)
15:10 jnthn Well, sort of :P
15:11 jnthn But I figure processing web requests is by and large going to have sufficiently independent tasks that it can scale out well.
15:11 jnthn Anyway, yes, bug-free first. :)
15:11 jnthn Or close enough few notice the bugs ;P
15:27 brrt :-)
15:27 brrt \o, long time no chat, how was travel?
15:29 brrt (i was shocked, by the way, by how big a difference the jitted code still made)
15:29 brrt i can only imagine how big a difference can come from 'real' codegen :-)
15:33 brrt then again, i guess i know that answer, it's basically luajit's whole game
15:38 * jnthn back
15:38 jnthn brrt: By and large, fine
15:38 jnthn brrt: I'm still "on the road" really...
15:38 jnthn Not home until Thursday.
15:39 jnthn I'm up in the north of Sweden. It didn't get dark last night. :
15:39 jnthn Also my ) key is failing :(
15:40 brrt :-o really no darkness?
15:41 brrt oh, that is a shame
15:41 * brrt is going to get pizza in a few minutes
15:44 * jnthn has a sore throat and guesses he should find something spicy...alas, no Indian restaurants in this town :(
15:44 jnthn Yeah, it's just a couple of hundred kms short of being in the arctic circle
15:51 brrt hmmm... for a sore throat you might better get acetaminophen :-) (or paracetamol, whatever you want to call it)
15:55 jnthn got varius of those already :)
15:55 brrt fair enough :-)
15:58 brrt i'm really off for pizza now :-) see you later this evening maybe?
16:00 jnthn I'll be about, yeah.
16:00 jnthn Just planning dinner and a walk
16:00 jnthn o/
16:18 hoelzro libpath is only used for .moarvm files, right?
16:18 hoelzro or is it also used for .so's?
16:22 hoelzro oh, apparently it's both
16:23 hoelzro it seems that all of the ops needed by NQP are provided by MoarVM itself, but Rakudo has custom ops.  Is that accurate?
16:24 jnthn Yes
16:24 jnthn Only Rakudo has ext ops.
16:24 hoelzro alright, thanks again jnthn!
17:10 jnthn dinner &
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19:53 dalek MoarVM/moar-jit: 755a183 | (Bart Wiegmans)++ | src/ (5 files):
19:53 dalek MoarVM/moar-jit: Fix the issue with inlining
19:53 dalek MoarVM/moar-jit: review: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/755a183985
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20:07 brrt ugh, i have to figure out how far the 'omg float are passed on registers too' problem bubbles through my code
20:16 FROGGS hehe
20:18 brrt hmm, its not that bad it seems
20:18 brrt just addresses and return values
20:18 brrt it does duplicate things a bit
20:34 brrt left #moarvm
20:48 * jnthn back
20:48 jnthn aww, I missed brrt 'cus I found an awesome riverside walking path and 2 hours later... :)
20:50 FROGGS jnthn: btw: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/dashboard/google/gsoc2014#evaluations
20:51 jnthn FROGGS: To be done before 27th,yes? :)
20:51 FROGGS yes
20:51 FROGGS "no exceptions"
20:51 FROGGS that's why I did it already :o)
20:57 jnthn "right now": http://jnthn.net/tmp/skell.jpg
20:57 jnthn Of note, notice the color of the sky. The note that it's about 11pm.
21:00 FROGGS nice :o)
21:01 btyler I remember being very disoriented walking around st petersburg in june and seeing kids playing on the street at 11pm
21:01 FROGGS and proper beer this time also :P
21:01 * tadzik wonder why some of the fields in the evaluation are already filled in
21:01 tadzik like "how do you communicate with your student"
21:01 tadzik how do you know, Google, you devil you
21:02 FROGGS hmm? there was nothing filled in in mine
21:02 tadzik oh
21:02 tadzik they seem to remember my answer from _my_ midterm evaluation from 3 years ago
21:03 tadzik I wonder if the other answers are moritz's answers...
21:04 tadzik FROGGS: uh, or maybe they are yours
21:04 FROGGS hmmm
21:09 moritz I don't think backup mentors need to fillout the evaluations
21:09 moritz at least it wasn't like this in previous years
21:10 tadzik okay, I'll leave it as it is, mostly
21:11 tadzik hope I didn't break too much, some of the stuff got overwritten even though I didn't click submit
21:19 jnthn The evaluation is submat. :)
21:22 FROGGS jnthn++
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21:33 jnthn brrt: Looking at MVM_jit_magic_bytecode, I wonder a bit if we can't just have a static somewhere with that bytecode and just point to the same thing every time...
21:33 jnthn Rather than malloc'in one each time and memcpying
21:35 jnthn brrt: Also, doesn't need doing for now, but a further opt in the future (for memory, not speed) will be to check if the bytecode is below the size limit for inlining, and if it's greater than that then we needn't keep around the optimized bytecode version of it.
21:36 dalek MoarVM/osr: 6158f0b | jonathan++ | / (8 files):
21:36 dalek MoarVM/osr: Add osrpoint opcode for hot loop detection.
21:36 dalek MoarVM/osr: review: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/6158f0b164
22:02 jnthn 'night o/
22:07 tadzik osr?
22:07 tadzik oh :)
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