Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #moarvm, 2014-09-26

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Time Nick Message
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13:41 jnthn evening, #moarvm
13:41 timotimo hello jnthn!
13:43 FROGGS hello jnthn!
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13:45 timotimo jnthn: did you comment on brrt's idea on making calling/frame allocation "optimistic by default"?
13:46 jnthn "Too soon" is my gut feeling on that
13:46 jnthn I think we should not consider it until after getting rid of the current remaining pesky inline bug(s?), and figuring out how escape analysis will be.
13:47 timotimo OK
13:47 timotimo i just had no intuition on how big the impact would be and how much effort it'd take to implement
13:48 jnthn Mostly I'm just wanting to make sure we take care of stability along with performance.
13:48 nwc10 jnthn++
13:48 PerlJam in the profiler output for routines, does "entries" mean how many times it was called?
13:48 jnthn PerlJam: Yes, with a caveat.
13:48 nwc10 stability matters
13:49 jnthn PerlJam: Well, 2. First off, it includes calls that were inlined (but I think it tells you the percentage there)
13:50 jnthn PerlJam: Second, continuations being taken count as stack frames being left, and continuations being invoked count as stack frames being re-entered.
13:50 jnthn PerlJam: This means the timings are accurate (good), but may distort the counts (less bad than bogus timing data).
13:51 PerlJam ok
13:51 jnthn Anyway, I've seen a few too many SIGSEGV and malloc errors for my liking of late, and I'm keen for us to squelch those.
13:53 jnthn It's maybe not as fun as performance work, but "does everything fast, including segfault" isn't really a reputation I want. :)
13:53 PerlJam jnthn++ indeed
13:53 nwc10 me too (to see them squelched), although I'm not really sure I'm part of the "we" which will do the hard work to acchieve this
13:53 nwc10 nah.
13:54 nwc10 not a great repuation
13:55 timotimo i'm way too short-sighted to consider stability over performance. i'm a bad, bad engineer :)
13:56 nwc10 performance gives you enough marketing to attract folks to try it out
13:57 nwc10 lack of stability kills your ability to retain them
13:57 PerlJam timotimo: Are you a parrot contributor?
13:57 nwc10 ultimately what matters is having an ecosystem
13:57 * PerlJam ducks
13:57 nwc10 and you only get that by growinging it over time
13:57 nwc10 meaning that you need to retain enough users that they build re-usable stuff
13:57 timotimo i didn't realize parrot was more performant than it was stable ...
13:58 nwc10 chromatic did a fantastic job of fixing instabilities
13:58 PerlJam timotimo: it probably isn't, but that's the type of design decision that led it to where it is today IMHO
13:58 nwc10 no-one ever thanked him enough for that
13:58 jnthn I don't think instability was really Parrot's issue
13:59 jnthn Or at least, there were far more significant ones.
14:00 jnthn nwc10: Yes, that's probably the main reason why stability was better than many other aspects.
14:00 FROGGS our current problems are certainly not Parrot's faults
14:00 FROGGS I have no proof of any regression caused by upgrading parrot
14:01 FROGGS though we might discover bugs that exist for years now that we fiddle with rakudo's guts moar and moar
14:03 jnthn FROGGS: I don't think anybody was suggesting they were.
14:04 timotimo hmm
14:04 jnthn Anyway, my point was that performance isn't the only goal we should be keeping in mind. :)
14:04 FROGGS just wanted to state that parrot is actually pretty stable...
14:05 FROGGS jnthn: that's why I try to unbreak stuff from time to time :o)
14:05 jnthn FROGGS: Yes, which I appreciate. :-)
14:05 FROGGS :o)
14:06 jnthn FROGGS: Though at some point we may want to try and figure out how much of our userbase uses each backend.
14:07 * FROGGS somehow fears that moment...
14:07 FROGGS but I can't explain why
14:09 PerlJam perhaps the fear stems from just identifying the userbase?  :)
14:09 FROGGS *g*
14:36 * [Coke] ponders porting GD to p6 via nativecall.
14:36 [Coke] "ok, we have 5 people using parrot, and 20 using moar."
14:37 [Coke] "also, I may have rounded up slightly"
14:44 timotimo %)
14:44 timotimo don't we have a gd nativecall module on the ecosystem already?
14:44 timotimo if so, you can probably get a jump start with that
14:48 [Coke] that's nice! now to pick a bigger one and see if that magically appears!
14:50 FROGGS :P
14:50 timotimo :D
14:51 [Coke] S26 has sample pod6 that is rendered as:
14:51 [Coke] B<=begin pod>
14:53 [Coke] Compiling lib/NativeCall.pm6 to mbc
14:53 [Coke] ===SORRY!===
14:53 [Coke] No registered operation handler for 'nativecallglobal'
14:53 [Coke] build stage failed for NativeCall: Failed building lib/NativeCall.pm6
14:53 [Coke] ^^ panda install GD pulls in nativecall which dies.
14:53 timotimo yeah, too new nativecall for not new enough rakudo
14:53 [Coke] roger.
14:55 FROGGS [Coke]: you can checkout 2014.08 in zavolaj
14:57 [Coke] using panda?
14:57 FROGGS no :/
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15:49 japhb FROGGS: Weren't you working on versioning support in Panda some time ago?  Or am I dreaming that?
15:53 japhb jnthn: Two thumbs way up for a stability push.  The performance improvements have been enough that right now my biggest blocker to evangelism is crashes (from both r-m and r-j) when doing threading/async stuff.  I don't want Rakudo to get a black eye on what I consider one of its strongest selling points.  But I also don't have a background debugging threading in a VM ....  :-/
15:55 jnthn japhb: Much of what's needed for such debugging is a good bit of patience and persistence...and thus it needs a lot of free and undisturbed time.
15:56 jnthn japhb: Which I've not really had much of recenlty.
15:57 japhb Nodnod, totally understood.  $day_job and all that.  Me too.
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15:58 jnthn Yeah. But I'm a copule of working days of being finished with the current very-energy-consuming assignment :)
15:58 jnthn *off
15:59 timotimo sounds good :)
16:00 timotimo jnthn: would we ever end up inlining something like the argument to a map call into the map routine's body?
16:00 timotimo in spesh, i mean
16:00 jnthn timotimo: map doesn't do anything really
16:01 jnthn timotimo: It makes a MapIter and returns it
16:01 jnthn So that's not where you'd end up inlining.
16:01 jnthn At the moment spesh can't do a whole lot with map, sadly.
16:01 jnthn Inlinability will, I magine, be once of the design forces on the GLR we discuss in Salzburg :)
16:02 timotimo that'd be pretty cool
16:02 jnthn *imagine, *one
16:21 japhb When are you meeting in Salzburg?
16:22 japhb (Happy to hear energy-consuming assignment is nearing the end.  Hope it was a great success.  :-)
16:25 nwc10 japhb: http://act.useperl.at/apw2014/schedule?day=2014-10-12 and http://act.useperl.at/apw2014/schedule?day=2014-10-13
16:29 FROGGS japhb: correct, which is still in a branch and/or on my disk
16:29 japhb Does no good sitting there on your disk!  :-)
16:30 FROGGS japhb: I can already fetch stuff from cpan and/or github with my version of panda, there is just a small issue:
16:30 FROGGS it does not work on windows, and it does not work on 32bit machines
16:30 japhb nwc10: Thanks
16:31 FROGGS because it needs like ten more dependencies like gzip support and HTTP::UserAgent, and these are not yet portable
16:31 [Coke] ufo is segfaulting
16:31 japhb HTTP::UserAgent isn't portable?  That seems like an odd thing to be platform-dependent
16:31 japhb Oh, because of SSL?
16:32 FROGGS for example, yes
16:32 japhb hmmm
16:32 FROGGS so... to fix all these things we have to get NativeCall wokring reliable on x86, and we may need pure Perl 6 version of gzip
16:32 * [Coke] opens a ufo ticket.
16:34 * japhb adds to his resource wishlist: 32-bit VMs for those who no longer have access to earlier hardware
16:35 FROGGS japhb: when I think about it... Compress::Zlib might be the only blocker right now
16:36 FROGGS japhb: virtual machines also do
16:36 japhb Who owns that one?
16:36 japhb "virtual machines also do"?
16:38 FROGGS hmm?
16:38 FROGGS I wanted to say that you don't need a 32bit hardware when you can have a virtualbox
16:43 [Coke] any idea where to find "load_ext" under $*VM these days?
16:44 * [Coke] has a horrible idea:
16:44 [Coke] r: say $*VM.config<load_ext>
16:45 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
16:45 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 85c4c0: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
16:45 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 85c4c0: OUTPUT«Can't call method "syswrite" on an undefined value at /home/p6eval/jvm-rakudo/eval-client.pl line 32.␤»
16:45 [Coke] does that work under parrot?
16:45 FROGGS what is load_ext meant to be?
16:45 moritz .so vs .dll, iirc
16:46 FROGGS m: say $*VM.precomp-ext
16:46 camelia rakudo-moar 85c4c0: OUTPUT«moarvm␤»
16:46 FROGGS in case it is this...
16:46 FROGGS for dll extension I'd look at NativeCall
16:47 [Coke] ... oh. yah, nativecall makes this obsolete now, I think. thanks.
16:48 FROGGS Bitte :o)
16:48 [Coke] FROGGS++
16:54 [Coke] yay, GD fixed.
16:55 [Coke] looks like someone else submitted a patch for one of the issues back on Jun 10
16:55 [Coke] we should probably change the modules version to point elsewhere, I guess.
16:56 [Coke] or talk it about it, anyway
16:56 [Coke] ... also, this was probably all meant for #perl6
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17:04 FROGGS [Coke]: yes, I've got two other PR's open for mrhdias
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18:11 [Coke] Do we have a cabal that can rule on "do we take a fork as the main repo in modules" ?
18:12 japhb [Coke]: Didn't TimToady have some rules he wanted to follow regarding setting default auth[or[ity]?]?
18:18 timotimo [Coke]: everyone with access to the perl6/ecosystem repository can do that
18:20 japhb timotimo: If I'm reading his question correctly, it was more of a "What's the Right Thing in terms of community practice?" rather than "Who has ACL permissions to make the change?"
18:21 timotimo oh
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18:56 [Coke] japhb++ yes.
18:56 [Coke] I would say no response on an ecosystem module since June == "ok to point to a fork."
19:06 FROGGS +1
19:07 FROGGS [Coke]: I've opened two PR on 27th February
19:07 FROGGS https://github.com/mrhdias/perl6-IUP/pulls and https://github.com/mrhdias/perl6-Imlib2/pulls
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22:47 dalek MoarVM: 2949416 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | docs/moar.pod:
22:47 dalek MoarVM: Another typo fix
22:47 dalek MoarVM: review: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/2949416369
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