Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #moarvm, 2016-03-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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09:18 brrt good *
09:20 moritz \o brrt
09:21 brrt \o moritz
09:21 brrt GPW done yet?
09:21 moritz no, still running
09:21 moritz and tomorrow is hackathon
09:21 moritz http://act.yapc.eu/gpw2016/wiki?node=Hackathon several p6 wolks have signed up
09:23 brrt cool
09:23 * brrt should look up whoever thomas mann really was
09:28 moritz a giant of German literature
09:28 moritz contemporary
09:28 moritz kinda
09:28 moritz erm, no, died 1955
09:29 moritz Nobel Prize winner
09:30 brrt i see his name on lots of streets
09:30 brrt so that explains
09:30 jnthn But how many verbs could be stack up at the end of a sentence? :)
09:31 brrt they're germans, you have to be tolerant about grammar
09:31 brrt :-P
10:00 brrt damnit
10:00 brrt the break is not as predictable as i had assumed
10:04 jnthn "the break"?
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10:13 brrt json-fast breaks under the expr jit
10:13 brrt i already see the problem
10:13 brrt or, i think i do
10:13 brrt can i temporarily shut off precompilation?
10:14 jnthn "no precompilation;" at the top of the script
10:15 brrt hmm
10:15 brrt env var maybe
10:15 brrt ?
10:32 brrt hmm, oh well
10:37 brrt hmmm
10:38 brrt tis as i expected
10:38 brrt not handling frame handler labels correctly
10:38 brrt annoying
10:38 jnthn ah..."fun"
10:39 brrt not really
10:40 brrt i can't make as strong claims about the ordering of labels etc
10:40 jnthn Ah, and the order can matter
10:41 brrt it's actually the end of multiple frame handler blocks
10:41 brrt that explains the sequence of dynamic control labels
10:42 brrt why would a getlex have a deopt_one annotation
10:43 jnthn brrt: Anything we can insert a guard after gets one
10:44 brrt but we're not doing anything with that it seems
10:45 brrt except for on actual guards
10:45 FROGGS jnthn: when I pass an &foo to a nativecall function... how do I know it is callable? I only see it as a P6Opaque
10:45 jnthn "know" in what sense?
10:46 moritz ~~ Callable?
10:46 jnthn See the isinvokable op's implementation for one answer though...
10:46 FROGGS moritz: does C have smartmatch now? :o)
10:46 * brrt thinks inspecting the REPR is the answer
10:48 moritz FROGGS: I misread "nativecall function" as a funtion within NativeCall.pm, I think
10:48 FROGGS yeah
10:49 jnthn Why do you want to check, ooc?
10:49 FROGGS I'm attempting at making function pointers work btw
10:49 jnthn In structs?
10:49 FROGGS src/core/nativecall.c:496 P6opaque invokable=1 \o/
10:49 FROGGS jnthn: no, currently like this:
10:50 FROGGS sub ForeignFunction() returns int32 is native('./19-function-pointers') { * }
10:50 FROGGS sub ReturnFunctionPointer() returns Pointer is native('./19-function-pointers') { * }
10:50 FROGGS my $ptr = ReturnFunctionPointer();
10:50 FROGGS nativecast(&ForeignFunction, $ptr);
10:50 jnthn ah
10:50 FROGGS dunno if that concept can work out though
10:50 FROGGS but I'll try and learn something
10:51 FROGGS (I'm doing this now because the inlined+sized arrays in Structs are a bit too big for me currently)
11:00 FROGGS so I think I need to duplicate the logic of MVM_nativecall_build...
11:01 FROGGS or, hmmm
11:13 * brrt is kind of annoyed at the uselessness of smart-grid literature
11:17 brrt long story short, i need a trip back to the drawing table to deal with many-labeled things correctly
11:18 moritz and here I though you meant smart enegery transport grids (which is what I associate with "smart grid") :-)
11:18 jnthn You've got the power!
11:19 brrt yeah, i menat that too, i'm looking into the topic for my second thesis
11:21 moritz ah
11:22 brrt (to be pedantic, 'smart power transmission' != 'smart grid'; the former is about using power lines cleverly, the second is about matching load and generation in a distributed fashion)
11:23 brrt whereby matching means both 'managing distributed generatorion, dispatchable loads, and storage
11:25 FROGGS lol, it works /o\
11:25 brrt and the uselessness is in that smart grid literature is always a): some guy from a compsci background that wants to play with distributed systems, b):some guy from a utility that wants to have permission to shed loads whenever he feels like it, c): an economist who wants to talk about price signals
11:25 FROGGS is it some sort of record to implement function pointers within 45 minutes (the hacky way) ?
11:26 brrt not bad :-)
11:27 FROGGS :o)
11:27 brrt and none of these things comes near solving the central problem, which is, how do we ensure that distributed generators and consumers _collaborate_. </rant>
11:30 jnthn FROGGS++
11:31 moritz brrt: sounds very much like something my father in law would say (who has been building dams for power plants and pump storage stations for 35 years or so)
11:31 FROGGS problem is that I somehow need to return a fresh/copied function from nativecast...
11:31 brrt that's a cool job moritz :-)
11:31 FROGGS currently it messes with the original function definition, which is the "target type" of the cast
11:32 jnthn FROGGS: A straight clone should do it, I think
11:32 FROGGS nqp::clone in NC.pm?
11:33 moritz brrt: ... except when it takes you to Teheran during the first Gulf war, for example :/
11:33 moritz but in general, yes
11:33 brrt was iran involved in that?
11:33 moritz that was between Iran and Iraq, yes
11:33 moritz (unless I miscounted the Gulf wars, but that's the one I'm talking about)
11:34 FROGGS jnthn: \o/
11:35 * brrt thought it was between iraq and kuwait
11:35 brrt but i'm not all that familiar with it
11:35 moritz oh
11:35 brrt well, my familiarity extends to 'desert strike'
11:36 moritz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War that's the one I meant
11:36 brrt a lot of countries against iraq, anyway
11:37 brrt anyway,, lunch &
11:37 jnthn .oO( Sad dam Hussein )
11:41 FROGGS if I want to change the signature of an op... shall I add a new one these days?
11:41 FROGGS I need to pass an extra arg
11:42 jnthn Which op?
11:42 FROGGS nativecallbuild
11:42 jnthn Why does it need an extra arg, when it already takes a hash describing what to do?
11:43 FROGGS ahh, of course
11:43 FROGGS I looked at that already but only spotted the arg_info hash
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14:06 dalek MoarVM: c20b5a3 | (Simon Ruderich)++ | src/io/sync (2 files):
14:06 dalek MoarVM: syncpipe: implement .native_descriptor introspection
14:06 dalek MoarVM: review: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/c20b5a3e21
14:06 dalek MoarVM: ef19050 | jnthn++ | src/io/sync (2 files):
14:06 dalek MoarVM: Merge pull request #345 from rudis/master
14:06 dalek MoarVM:
14:06 dalek MoarVM: syncpipe: implement .native_descriptor introspection
14:06 dalek MoarVM: review: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/ef19050198
14:20 dalek MoarVM: ada3752 | FROGGS++ | src/ (3 files):
14:20 dalek MoarVM: handle C function entry point in nativecall_build when supplied
14:20 dalek MoarVM:
14:20 dalek MoarVM: With this we can now let a Perl 6 native subroutine use a given
14:20 dalek MoarVM: memory address of a C function.
14:20 dalek MoarVM: review: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/ada3752a81
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17:22 timotimo FROGGS: i find it strange to have the target of the nativecast be an actually defined sub that has an "is native" on it; have you considered just taking a Signature instead?
17:22 timotimo because if you "is native('some library')" for a function pointer target, that confuses me, because that function isn't actually likely to be defined in that native library
17:23 FROGGS hmmm
17:23 FROGGS good point I guess
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18:43 lizmat unicode 9.0 summary of changes (draft): http://unicode.org/versions/Unicode9.0.0/
18:53 [Coke] we don't say what version of unicode we support programmatically, do we/
18:53 [Coke] ?
18:54 timotimo that would be an interesting little tidbit to have
19:08 FROGGS[mobile] more "interesting" would be a "use unicode:ver(v6.3)"
19:25 lizmat isn't that somewhere in $*VM ?
19:29 * [Coke] wonders why $*VM is of type VM and not something Hashy.
19:29 lizmat [Coke]: it does Systemic, and that was one of TimToady's inventions
19:30 lizmat the AT-KEY interface was actually deprecated before 6.c
19:30 [Coke] unfortunately, it means you can't .keys it.
19:30 [Coke] or introspect it, that I can fight with from the REPL.
19:31 lizmat m: dd VM.^attributes>>.name   # [Coke]  ??
19:31 camelia rakudo-moar b703d6: OUTPUT«("\$!config", "\$!prefix", "\$!precomp-ext", "\$!precomp-target", "\$!precomp-dir", "\$!name", "\$!auth", "\$!version", "\$!signature", "\$!desc")␤»
19:32 lizmat m: dd VM.^methods>>.name
19:32 camelia rakudo-moar b703d6: OUTPUT«("BUILD", "platform-library-name", "Str", "gist", "config", "prefix", "precomp-ext", "precomp-target", "precomp-dir", "name", "auth", "version", "signature", "desc")␤»
19:32 [Coke] lizmat: thanks. I never would have thought to try that.
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20:54 jnthn The UAX #29 changes will impact NFG
20:55 jnthn There's some RTs already asking about emoji with regard to NFG
20:56 jnthn My answer was going to be "we define NFG by UAX #29".
20:56 jnthn But seems UAX #29 is going to make the changes that the RTs ask for.
20:56 jnthn So, that's nice.
20:56 jnthn My answer is still that I guess, but it's more like "we'll fix this as part of updating to Unicode 9"
20:58 jnthn Other than that, doesn't look like it'll be anything outside of what our scripts handle already.
20:58 jnthn *script handles
21:12 timotimo do we want to support reverting to older versions of the unicode standard in lexical environments?
21:13 jnthn No
21:13 jnthn Well, I don't :P
21:13 jnthn Maybe somebody has a really good use case
21:14 jnthn But I've yet to hear one besides "we can show it off" :P
21:14 jnthn And the infrastructure to do it would be quite annoying.
21:14 jnthn (Shipping older Unicode DBs, lazily loading them, etc.)
21:15 timotimo ensuring the behavior of a script doesn't change when updating to a newer rakudo :)
21:16 jnthn I'd think the Unicode stability policy covers most of the important bases though
21:16 timotimo good
21:16 jnthn They've constrainted themselves a good bit in what they can change.
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