Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #moarvm, 2016-04-24

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Time Nick Message
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01:47 Topic for #moarvm is now https://github.com/moarvm/moarvm | IRC logs at  http://irclog.perlgeek.de/moarvm/today
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08:52 leont jnthn: MVM_SPESH_OSR_DISABLE=1 doesn't fix it
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09:11 tomboy64 i have a suggested patch for moarvm's Configure.pl: https://bpaste.net/show/e6d9849d7d77
09:11 tomboy64 also, is lua a build-time only dependency?
09:12 lizmat tomboy64: afaik, jnthn will accept PR's on moarvm  :-)
09:12 tomboy64 :)
09:13 tomboy64 i'd still like some feedback on it here
09:14 lizmat I assume ExtUtils::PkgConfig is P5 core ?
09:15 timotimo yeah, lua is only needed at build-time, and even then we could distribute the files it spits out with a release or in a distro package
09:15 tomboy64 hmm. actually i don't think so. at least my distro (gentoo) lists it as a cpan package
09:16 tomboy64 as a regular cpan package
09:16 tomboy64 timotimo: that's not necessary.
09:16 timotimo that's bad; so far we've only depended on core perl5 - and a really old version of perl5 at that
09:16 lizmat so that would add a prereq
09:17 tomboy64 okay. could i depend on native pkg-config then?
09:19 tomboy64 because otherwise i wouldn't get a path like -I/usr/lib64/libffi-3.2.1/include
09:20 timotimo you could; that's easier to have a fallback for, IMO
09:20 timotimo a shell-out failing is easier than a module use failing, i mean
09:21 tomboy64 :-} how do i do a shell call in perl?
09:22 timotimo in perl5 i don't know ... but our configure stuff already does lots of shelling out to figure out things regarding the C compiler
09:23 psch tomboy64: system() for the exit code and exec() for the output iirc
09:23 tomboy64 psch: so i would effectively run things twice?
09:24 psch tomboy64: well, if you actually need both (as in, the output carries different information than the exit code), yes
09:24 timotimo why doesn't perl5 core have something for that purpose?
09:24 timotimo er, why *wouldn't*
09:25 timotimo as in: it's gotta have that, right? otherwise it'd be strange
09:26 psch http://www.perlhowto.com/executing_external_commands
09:26 psch exec() probably is the wrong tool
09:26 psch i'm not really a perl5 programmer... :)
09:27 timotimo huh. how do you figure out if a program fails later on with the open approach?
09:27 timotimo i see it's easy to figure out if/that it couldn't be started, as in: binary doesn't exist
09:28 timotimo maybe you close the file handle you opened and that then has a return value?
09:29 tomboy64 thanks guys
09:30 tomboy64 that should actually make things work
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17:37 timotimo https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/AutoFDO  -  are we interested in this at all?
17:39 lizmat with the rate of disappearing gcc support on the various distributions, I wonder how much it would be worth
17:40 timotimo oh, is clang seriously replacing gcc in some places?
17:40 timotimo that'd be catastrophic for moarvm build times
17:41 arnsholt Are there any Linux distros replacing GCC with clang?
17:41 arnsholt I think I've heard of fBSD talking about something like that, but not any Linux distros
17:45 lizmat well, OSX comes to mind
17:46 timotimo well, apple is heavily investing into llvm and clang anyway
17:50 leont From what I head clang is also becoming the standard in BSD land, but in Linux not so much
17:51 leont It doesn't help that recent g++ and clang++ aren't compatible :-/
17:55 arnsholt Yeah, and OS X
17:55 arnsholt They've swapped out a fair bit of software due to GPL3
17:57 leont Quite
18:19 geekosaur fbsd replaced gcc with clang as of 9.3-RELEASE and 10.0-RELEASE
18:22 BinGOs 9.x has clang as well as gcc and the default compiler (cc) is gcc
18:22 BinGOs but yeah, gcc was gone from 10.0 and cc was clang
18:26 geekosaur sorry I meant 9.4 not 9.3 which was still gcc
18:29 geekosaur and it looiks like it's not actually released yet despite references to it around the net :/ thought it had happened already. in any case 9-STABLE has gone clang for the base system and the next release will use it
18:32 orbus_ out of curiosity, why is it that moarvm builds so much slower on clang?  have the specific pain points ever been identified?
18:32 timotimo it's interp.c
18:33 timotimo it has a gigantic amount of named labels
18:34 arnsholt Have we reported it to the clang bugtracker?
18:34 timotimo no clue. i've done nothing like that
18:34 orbus it has a lot, but it doesn't seem like *that* many
18:35 timotimo clang certainly takes its time compiling it
18:35 timotimo we should probably do individual timings to make sure it is really interp.c that is the problematic one
18:35 timotimo and not just everything being equally slower
18:35 timotimo https://travis-ci.org/MoarVM/MoarVM  -  here you can compare clang vs gcc
18:36 timotimo 2:46 vs 9:42
18:36 timotimo 2:55 vs 10:47
18:37 orbus hrm
18:37 orbus I did a build on freebsd with clang a while back
18:37 orbus I don't remember it being super duper slow
18:37 orbus but maybe I just walked away while it was compiling
18:38 geekosaur clang does have its known pain points re compile speed
18:38 geekosaur one of the worst examples is part of llvm, so they definitely know about it
18:42 orbus maybe they just figure people will throw more hardware at it if compile time matters to them
18:43 timotimo or, you know, just develop on linux or windows :)
18:46 orbus hmm
18:46 orbus looks like stock linux kernel won't build on clang
18:47 orbus but there's a project producing patches that looks they can make it work
18:47 timotimo that's useful
18:47 orbus but probably why linux distros aren't moving towards it
18:47 timotimo yeah
18:50 orbus this was from last year but I'm not sure that the situation's changed much
18:50 orbus http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=llvm-clang-linux-kernel-2015
19:02 geekosaur I think a lot of the air got sucked out of that project whern gcc fixed its performance issues in 4.9
19:02 geekosaur after Linus caught it doing some pathetically stupid things
19:03 timotimo hah, our code generator and optimizers are like that, too ... in some parts :)
19:03 geekosaur but we're not on version 4.9 :)
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19:03 timotimo with something as gigantic as a compiler, it's hard to look at every nook and cranny unless you have good tests that you can look at the compiler with
19:38 masak another blog post for all you GC lovers out there: http://v8project.blogspot.se/2016/04/jank-busters-part-two-orinoco.html
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19:52 moritz masak: good read, thanks
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