Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #moarvm, 2016-05-23

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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07:17 brrt good *
07:18 nwc10 good *, brrt
07:18 brrt ohai nwc10
07:19 brrt i've a new and cunning plan to proceed with the register allocator for even-moar-jit
07:19 brrt or rather, a next step
07:19 brrt next steps are awesome, because you can do them without puzzling over it
07:19 moritz do tell
07:19 brrt well, it's embarassingly simple
07:20 brrt at this point, the register allocator can not insert either spills or loads, yet
07:20 brrt its just a register assigner
07:20 brrt the next step is a): write a small program that will force spilling and loading (this will throw a NYI)
07:21 brrt b): implement spilling and loading for the very simple case we actually need
07:21 moritz that sounds very agile
07:22 brrt i've come to realise that all the useful bits of agile can be summarised as: 'set goals you know how to reach'
07:22 brrt all the other bits are just ritual
07:22 moritz not quite
07:22 brrt now i can't blame people for rituals
07:23 moritz a big part of agile is "reflect on what you did, and improve"
07:23 moritz and do it regularly
07:23 brrt fair point
07:23 brrt hmmm
07:23 brrt that may be one of those steps that is so obvious you might overlook it
07:23 nwc10 http://www.computerweekly.com/news/450296744/HumanOps-challenges-IT-industry-to-improve-working-conditions-for-infrastructure-operations-staff -- Whenever an out-of-hours alert occurs, a review will be carried out the following day to see if it was worthwhile waking someone up in the middle of the night to sort out.
07:24 brrt radical
07:24 brrt how on earth did anyone get /that/ idea
07:24 nwc10 (near the end. I find all of Bob's comments interesting.)
07:24 moritz sounds a bit like Google's SRE approach
07:24 nwc10 I'm also biased because I know him :-)
07:25 brrt :-)
07:25 brrt question: people are not necessarily smart, but they are not necessarily stupid, either
07:25 brrt why are organisations almost universally more stupid than their constituent people
07:27 moritz conflict of interest, communication overhead
07:28 diakopter rather we must understand that organizations cannot be stupid, as they are not people
07:31 moritz right, but they can show stupid behavior
07:31 brrt fair point, they can force stupid behavior on people?
07:32 brrt also, i'm not sure if i agree at all
07:33 moritz even if they don't, they can still lead to stupid behavior
07:33 nwc10 moritz: I'd add "externalities" to your list. (externalities from one organisational sub-unit to another. eg it costs little for someone *else* to say that X needs to be fixed urgently, or out of hours)
07:33 brrt plenty of organisation-like things have collective behavior, all behavior can be adaptive (smart) or non-adaptive (stupid), hence organiations can be(have) stupid
07:34 diakopter i do think orgs can prevent people from not being stupid
07:34 moritz if several people are involved in a process, they might optimize for different things
07:34 moritz which leads to behavior that makes sense to everybody involved, and is still stupid from the outside
07:34 brrt externalities are a big thing, yes
07:34 brrt i'm specifically referring to collective (external) stupidity
07:34 brrt :-)
07:35 moritz quite a bit of good productivity consulting consists of just getting the people in one room that work together on one process/project/customer
07:35 moritz which can be quite hard in big orgs
07:36 moritz once they are in the room and talk about the big picture, it's much easier to see the harmful micro optimizations that occur at each step
07:38 brrt that sounds.. a lot like the 'system optimization' thing that is all the rage in energy and environmental planning
07:39 moritz if you're interested in these kinds of dicussion, I can recommend the "Devops Cafe" podcast (now mostly defunct, I'm afraid)
07:40 moritz they have conversions with lots of devops people, and most of them started quite technical, and are now working on shaping the organizations to be more "devops"
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11:04 brrt i'm also thinking of shrinking the size of a MVMJitExprNode to 32 bit
11:04 brrt and splitting constant pointers into two parts
11:05 brrt i think that won't hurt all that much, and will be slightly cleaner since we downcast to a 32 bit value for most of the time
11:06 brrt the enum value of a MVMJitExprNode is also 32 bit wide
12:32 brrt it is dammingly hard to get the register allocator to allocate more than 8 registers...
12:41 jnthn Does that mean it's doing pretty good already? ;)
12:42 brrt well, that is one interpretatation
12:42 brrt eh
12:42 brrt interpretation
12:43 brrt i prefer to say that the failure case is not so easy to trigger :-)
12:47 brrt \o/ got it
12:48 brrt i demonstrate: https://gist.github.com/bdw/3b4cafe6f232239d40f01069cfff30ef
12:48 brrt which will throw 'spill_something NYI'
12:51 jnthn :D
12:51 jnthn Remember to add this as a tset :)
12:51 jnthn *test
12:51 brrt yes :-)
12:52 brrt i don't have a commit bit for nqp, otherwise i'd add it there
12:53 jnthn You don't?
12:53 brrt no, don't think i do
12:54 brrt i've added a few tests in the jit-test repo
12:54 jnthn Sent you an invite so you can commit to nqp :)
12:54 brrt thanks :-)
12:58 * timotimo has a headache :|
13:00 * jnthn is getting one...
13:00 jnthn Too much meetings/email and too little code for me today :P
13:00 timotimo they are in vogue today, it seems. all my other friends seem to have them as well
13:00 timotimo the "off-line friends", that is
13:15 brrt is there a way to get the current moar version (and possibly, built branch) from nqp?
13:15 * brrt is still healthy
13:15 moritz brrt: nqp --version should report something
13:15 jnthn m: say nqp::backendconfig()
13:15 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/8gTJ5RMzBw␤Could not find nqp::backendconfig, did you forget 'use nqp;' ?␤at /tmp/8gTJ5RMzBw:1␤------> say nqp::backendconfig()⏏<EOL>␤»
13:15 jnthn m: use nqp; say nqp::backendconfig()
13:15 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«{ar => ar, arflags => rcs, arout => , asm => .s, asmout => -o , asmswitch => -S, auxclean => @:, be => 0, bindir => /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/bin, booltype => _Bool, can_unaligned_int32 => 1, can_unaligned_int64 => 1, can_unaligned_num64 => 1, cancgoto…»
13:16 jnthn I think it's in there somewhere
13:16 jnthn m: use nqp; say nqp::backendconfig()<version>
13:16 camelia rakudo-moar 2c4506: OUTPUT«2016.05␤»
13:16 jnthn Maybe that one
13:18 brrt hmmmm
13:18 brrt not the branch, no
13:19 jnthn Ah, yeah, it won't do branch...only sha-1 I guess
13:19 jnthn I think really it's git-describe output
13:20 jnthn So if you had an annotated tag for example...
13:32 brrt tsall good
13:32 brrt it wil work this way :-)
13:35 brrt pushed, thanks jnthn++ for the commit bit
13:35 brrt i have a few more tests
13:35 brrt i'll see whether i can add them
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14:10 brrt i'm going to see if anyone is interested in a yapc::eu talk about practical hacking on the expr jit
14:10 brrt i.e. how to write templates, tiles, optimizations, and stuff like that
14:12 brrt a crowdsourced JIT is still my dream, perhaps naive
14:13 brrt oh, and timotimo, your graph.c-to-expr converter will feature :-)
14:18 lizmat +1 # count me in  :-)
14:25 brrt lizmat: great :-D, that's encouraging
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