Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2010-07-18

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:10 memowe sri: sorry! :)
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07:12 vti sebastion
07:12 vti lol
07:13 vti like legion
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07:34 sri :o
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07:58 GitHub80 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * c43b6f4 (2 files in 2 dirs): deprecated Mojo::ByteStream->import - http://bit.ly/9aa96o
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08:05 vti sri is doing something evil
08:05 sri ?
08:05 vti deprecating stuff :)
08:05 sri thats not evil
08:08 yko i don't think deprecating is evil. at least, we have some time to prepare.
08:08 * sri nods
08:08 yko removeing/changing features without any note/warning - that is evil :\
08:08 yko Sebastion++
08:08 sri what would be evil is cluttering the apis and never removing anything bad
08:08 sri -.-
08:08 * sri kicks yko
08:08 * yko giggles
08:09 yko ouch
08:09 * yko rubbing ear.
08:10 yko I didn't expect that...
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08:16 sri kimoto: why would you complain about the cloud function oO() not being user friendly? it is an undocumented easter egg
08:28 yko sri: with Mojo::ByteStream->import you deprecationg Mojo::ByteStream 'b' usage?
08:28 yko i don't think that oO() isa easter egg
08:28 yko it must be plural at least then
08:30 memowe Well, my problem is, if I want to do something with strings, I have to 'use ojo', which is much less readable than 'use Mojo::ByteStream'.
08:31 memowe Everyone who reads the code can see where the b function comes from.
08:33 memowe sri: why do you consider the 'use Mojo::ByteStream \'b\'b' thing bad?
08:33 memowe s/\\'b'/\\''/
08:33 sri because it doesn't fit into the whole api
08:33 sri it's just odd
08:34 memowe What is the marketing compliant alternative to do something with strings?
08:35 sri what has that to do with marketing?
08:35 memowe I thought ojo was for command line freaks.
08:35 sri you don't have to use it
08:35 sri Mojo::ByteStream->new('lalala')
08:36 sri come up with a clean api that fits into the whole scheme if you want an alternative
08:36 memowe Hmok
08:52 memowe sri: is there any easy way to create stream objects in templates? If not, what about http://gist.github.com/480241 ?
08:52 garfield [ gist: 480241 - GitHub ]
08:53 sri adding yet another name for it seems wrong
08:53 memowe rename it to whatever you want. :)
08:54 memowe Maybe b?
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08:56 GitHub114 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 16c5b5a (31 files in 18 dirs): undeprecate Mojo::ByteStream->import - http://bit.ly/cP8L0m
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08:56 sri since people seem to care so much about it -.-
08:57 memowe oO
08:57 yko yay :)
08:57 yko b() is sweet
08:57 sri i've just removed the name variable, since it was never tested or documented
08:57 sri this version is about as clean as it could be i guess
08:59 sri ojo use is now also back to zero
09:00 sri just using it in the lite_app test to make sure it works together with lite
09:02 memowe Great! :)
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14:29 kimoto sri: I don't understand the meaning of Oo and oO. Is it easy to understand for the people speaking English?
14:31 kimoto If these functions is not documented, when is these functions used?
14:31 sri kimoto: why would you criticise before you even understand the meaning?
14:32 sri they are easter eggs... i said like a thousand times now
14:32 sri *+that
14:34 sri a) oO can be a suspicious smiley b) written like oO('http://mojolicio.us') they can look like a cloud
14:35 sri there is no meaning, they just look nice in oneliners and make people happy
14:38 kimoto Do you mean this
14:38 kimoto http://www.google.co.jp/images?q=sm​iley&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sour​ce=og&sa=N&hl=ja&tab=wi
14:38 garfield http://xrl.us/bhs8xe
14:38 sri yes
14:38 sri oO == http://www.best-of-web.com/_im​ages/080508-185910-849007.jpg
14:39 garfield http://xrl.us/bhs8xk
14:40 kimoto Soryy, I don't know the meaning of Oo and oO.
14:40 kimoto know -> knew
14:41 sri its only purpose is fun, so people involved in the project can write a little cooler oneliners than everyone else
14:41 sri no documentation will ever refer to them
14:42 sri just like shagadelic() in Mojolicious::Lite
14:42 kimoto I understood Oo and oO is humor in onliner.
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20:40 _mpu sri, is mojolicious a full time project ?
20:40 sri _mpu: right now it is, generally not
20:42 sri _mpu: don't think there is any perl project with a fulltime developer actually
20:43 _mpu :)
20:43 _mpu I was asking because I am really impressed by the activity of your github repo
20:44 sri :)
20:44 Grauwolf sri: i would really like to see a "why you should use mojo/what makes mojo a better choice" blogpost. would you make one when the documentation for the next version is done?
20:45 sri Grauwolf: bad idea
20:45 Grauwolf i heared "perl? can you still do webprojects in it?" a lot in the last few days
20:46 sri what makes mojo *better* will start a war
20:46 _mpu I've written a small pastebin engine with Mojolicious::Lite it was quite fast but I had some difficulties browsing the doc (browsing the code was often more enlightening)
20:46 Grauwolf sri: ok then "why mojo is a good choice"
20:46 sri unless you mean *better* than frameworks of other languages
20:46 _mpu lol
20:47 Grauwolf sri: i surely don't mean dancer (oh no. the forbidden word?) :P
20:47 sri the forbidden word is catalyst
20:47 Grauwolf sri: aren't you a catalyst dev?
20:47 sri dancer is simply irrelevant
20:47 Grauwolf hrhr
20:47 sri i wrote catalyst
20:47 Grauwolf so why is it forbidden?
20:47 sri tradition
20:47 Grauwolf in my defense. i didn't use catalyst
20:48 sri ;p
20:48 Grauwolf but back to what i wanted to say. i would really like to have a blogpost wich talks about features, advantages,...
20:49 sri thats more a blog series
20:49 sri and actually very likely
20:49 Grauwolf or a very long blogpost :P
20:49 sri naah, wall of text blog posts don't work
20:50 sri people want their information chunk wise
20:50 sri ideally with pictures
20:52 Grauwolf hrhr
20:53 sri i really want to do screencasts again btw
20:53 Grauwolf i will await the posts expectantly
20:58 sri i always forget writing about all the cool stuff we have because i'm already working on new ideas :S
21:00 sri so many small things like testing mojolicious apps with css3 selectors totally deserve more attention
21:03 sri it's these small details that really make the difference
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21:07 Grauwolf to be honest. flask looks interesting as well http://flask.pocoo.org/
21:07 garfield [ Welcome | Flask (A Python Microframework) ]
21:07 Grauwolf but nothing compared to mojo :)
21:08 sri i would be programming python now if it allowed sweet apis
21:08 Grauwolf what do you mean?
21:09 sri those method decorators are horrible
21:09 sri it's impossible to build a sweet dsl
21:09 sri don't mention "with"...
21:09 Grauwolf i really like perl's sigils
21:10 Grauwolf i would miss them in python
21:10 sri don't think i would miss them
21:10 Grauwolf but i don't want to start a python vs perl discussion *g*
21:11 sri i like the batteries included philosophy of python
21:11 sri but it's too strict in general
21:11 Grauwolf you do? that's what i don't like about it. but it has advantages
21:12 Grauwolf catchword: dependency hell
21:12 sri ruby is a nice middleground
21:12 sri if it ever gets a proper implementation i might be tempted to really switch
21:12 Grauwolf i come from the ruby-land
21:13 sri MacRuby could become *it*
21:13 Grauwolf switched to perl not not so long ago. 2 months now?
21:13 sri oh, i was in ruby land for almost a year too after leaving catalyst :D
21:13 Grauwolf so why still using perl?
21:14 Grauwolf i mean. if you like ruby?
21:14 sri you can't really do anything serious in ruby itself, always C extensions, everything is too slow
21:15 sri the language itself has not that many weaknesses
21:15 Grauwolf have you tried perl6? what do you think of it? i've never tried it
21:16 sri it's not a whole language yet
21:16 sri what i've seen is good, but i can already see serious weaknesses
21:17 sri (from a making APIs pretty point of view)
21:17 Grauwolf to be honest. i wasted nearly 6 months on choosing between python, ruby and perl. one day i just flipped coins and it was in perls favour. but i'm still look sometimes to the python side
21:18 sri lol
21:18 Grauwolf for a newbie it's really hard to choose between them. they all got something
21:18 sri yea
21:19 sri python is tempting, but no room for creativity rules it out for me
21:20 Grauwolf but for the moment i'm happy with perl and i try to suppress every feeling to change. it just consumes too much time
21:21 sri once perl6 gets serious it will be ruby vs perl for me again
21:22 Grauwolf sri: so we don't have to expect a new python webframework called "urge" in near future (wich means that mojo will die) :)
21:22 sri nope :)
21:22 Grauwolf good
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21:23 sri for now i have way too many ideas that build upon mojolicious
21:24 sri and i really want to launch my first commercial web service :)
21:25 Grauwolf :)
21:25 Grauwolf btw. perl's marketing is really bad
21:26 Grauwolf it's not just bad. it sucks
21:26 sri i'm well aware of that ;p
21:27 sri the only way to actually improve it is to force better marketing onto people
21:27 sri (for which i have some plans)
21:28 Grauwolf i'm reading news.ycombinator.com for some months now. everytime perl gets mocked some perl-guys are going into defensive-mode
21:29 sri yea, the problem is that the whole perl world is completely unorganized
21:29 Grauwolf i really like to see some more good articles instead of "why perl doesn't suck"-posts
21:30 * sri nods
21:31 sri don't see a point in such posts either, somehow people don't get that you just have to highlight the good things
21:31 Grauwolf sri: i thought perl has a marketing comitee
21:31 sri the marketing comitee is a lie...
21:31 Grauwolf *googling*
21:31 Grauwolf http://news.perlfoundation.org/2009/1​0/the_perl_foundation_marketing.html
21:31 garfield [ The Perl Foundation Marketing Committee - The Perl Foundation ]
21:31 garfield http://xrl.us/bhtozo
21:31 sri well, i offered them logos like a month ago, not even a response
21:31 sri it's a huge joke
21:32 sri they've not done anything
21:32 Grauwolf sri: maybe a screencast about how to write a positive/good blogpost would be more necessary *g*
21:32 sri ;p
21:34 Grauwolf sri: hm. is it such a bad idea? maybe not a screencast. but a blogpost?
21:46 Grauwolf http://blogs.perl.org/users/magnache​f/2010/07/the-marketing-of-perl.html
21:46 garfield [ magnachef at blogs.perl.org: The Marketing Of Perl ]
21:46 garfield http://xrl.us/bhtoz6
21:48 Grauwolf http://www.chrishardie.com/te​ch/perl/framing-lightning.pdf
21:48 garfield http://xrl.us/bhto2a
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23:55 sri Grauwolf: i'm not interested in telling people what they should do
23:57 sri Grauwolf: and i've never heard of that guy before

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