Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2010-09-06

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00:04 MojoGuest961 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (51 hits)
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01:34 MojoGuest550 hola
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04:49 xantus_ hi hi
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06:55 sri nrh: what version?
06:56 sri nrh: it's likely already fixed on github
06:56 * sri waves
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08:10 GitHub1 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * dd7bb12 (5 files in 5 dirs): log direct use of reserved stash values - http://bit.ly/daI0RP
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08:14 sri not sure about this, but i guess we can try
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08:18 GitHub114 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 41a3f81 (1 files in 1 dirs): cleanup - http://bit.ly/9jYA8i
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08:20 sri this is a case where if i get no feedback it gets removed again
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08:26 janus i like it, would have saved me a few hairs in the beginning ;)
08:30 marcus I like it too
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09:33 MojoGuest616 From: http://dev.xantus.org/ (4 hits)
09:33 MojoGuest616 test
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10:35 perlrocks Twitter: "Very happy with the current state of #mojolicious embedded #perl templates, pretty block syntax makes such a huge difference. :)" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/23134821003
10:41 perlrocks Twitter: "If there's no #perl-ish solution to a problem we simply go with "pretty" in #mojolicious. ;) http://bit.ly/9INUn8" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/23135108358
10:52 perlrocks Twitter: "Defaulting to embedded #perl templates was once the most criticized decision in #mojolicious, today it's one of the hottest features. :)" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/23135601567
10:54 sri *crickets*
10:55 sri ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!
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11:19 marcus ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOKRAIH
11:23 janus uh, that doesn't sound very well
11:24 sri *glowing eyes*
11:24 sri *hypnotic noise*
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12:38 * sri needs waffles
12:54 * marcus needs beer
12:58 sri too early for beer
13:03 marcus then I need a mojolicious brochure
13:03 marcus to hand out on a stand on wednesday
13:04 marcus in case you want java people to start adopting your framework...
13:05 sri a cool brochure in 2 days? Oo
13:05 marcus sri: I asked you for the same thing half a year ago :p
13:05 * sri doesn't remember
13:06 marcus what did they do at linuxtag anyways?
13:06 marcus just show websocket demos?
13:06 sri ask vti
13:07 sri but yea, some sweet brochures might be something i should design
13:08 janus maybe a lite_app demo in general?
13:08 marcus last time I asked was actually in february, for http://www.fosdem.org/
13:08 marcus janus: vti has a bunch of lite_app demos
13:08 sri janus: there are dozens on github
13:08 janus i mean personalized ones for the visitors ;)
13:09 janus for example a simple app to generate mojo apps and sent via email?
13:09 sri as in spam?
13:10 janus if they want it, sure
13:10 sri oO
13:10 janus well, i usually don't complain about mails i want :)
13:11 janus put a terminal with this app open, saying ``YOUR NEW WEBAPP IN THREE SECONDS''...
13:11 janus enter email and name, submit, done
13:11 sri i fail to see the point
13:11 janus just thinking about ideas to attract people on a conference or something
13:11 sri there is absolutely no "wow" factor that would actually sell mojolicious
13:12 janus yes, hence the mass marketing, fire-and-forget style
13:12 sri DO NOT WANT
13:12 janus well, hopefully not forget, but not waste any more time than informing people unless they want to
13:13 janus :)
13:13 janus at least someone said it
13:14 sri people at events like linuxtag want free goodies with pretty images on it...period
13:14 janus sure
13:14 janus i'm not objecting anything, do i? :)
13:15 sri nope, but your suggestion seemed a little aimlessly
13:15 sri knowing what the target audience actually wants is quite important
13:16 marcus to avoid eye contact?
13:16 sri hehe
13:16 janus the danger of shooting ideas into the blue, i can live with that
13:17 janus initially promoted by the lack of brochures
13:17 janus :)
13:17 sri shotgun marketing generally sucks if you have *any* other options
13:20 sri the main reason to have brochures is to make your booth look better, most people don't even look into it
13:21 janus having no real idea in that regard its time to crawl back under my rock :)
13:21 sri pretty picture on the front and a "USE MOJOLICIOUS!" inside would be more than enough :)
13:22 sri the few that look inside will just think "yay, no wall of text!"
13:24 sri you are way better off printing your feature list on the back of a t-shirt with a witty slogan on the front
13:25 sri or even pens
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13:40 esskar whats the difference beteween <%= $content %> and <%== $content %>
13:41 sri = gets automatically escaped
13:41 sri == doesn't
13:41 sri see Rendering guide
13:41 sri it's somewhere around line 1 ;p
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13:45 esskar i always skip lines 1 .. 10
13:45 esskar ;)
13:45 esskar thanks
13:46 * sri traps esskar in a template block
13:47 sri <%= wafflethrower begin %>esskar<% end %>
13:49 sri note that i did not cache the result, so this gets executed over and over, hah!
13:53 sri hmm, people seem not to like $self->helper(foo => 'bar') much
13:53 sri what if we did $self->helper->foo('bar')
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13:58 sri might feel a lot more natural, and AUTOLOAD overhead is not too bad
14:17 sri why havn't i thought about that earlier
14:17 marcus autoload is suckage when you call something that doesn't exist
14:17 marcus overuse of autoload like functionality is one of the reasons I dislike rails
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14:20 Taulmarill hi
14:21 Taulmarill are there any best practices or good examples for authorization and authentication in Mojolicious?
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14:22 sri marcus: well, i can die if somethign doesn't exist
14:22 sri actually, just like $self->helper(foo => 'bar') dies if the helper doesn't exist
14:23 sri Taulmarill: the lite tutorial has an example
14:23 sri the session one
14:24 sri marcus: it's pretty much just like the helper method now, except that it looks a bit better in code
14:29 marcus sri: sure, but the stack trace will be ugly.
14:29 sri Carp::croak(qq/Helper "$method" not found/)
14:30 sri thats what we do for ->helper(...)
14:31 sri marcus: are you against allowing $self->helper->foo(...)?
14:31 sri or are you just on a moral crusade against autoload in general? :)
14:33 sri right now we have the situation that people start to love template helpers but not the authentication ones for example because they look like $self->helper(basic_auth => ...)
14:33 sri i think $self->helper->auth_basic(...) is quite a big improvement
14:33 marcus sri: AUTOLOAD will show up in the stacktrace
14:33 sri so?
14:34 sri people know helpers are a very dynamic thing
14:34 sri if autoload is the right tool for the job
14:36 sri marcus: are there any arguments besides stack trace aesthetics? :)
14:37 sri everything is a tradeoff, i think $self->helper->foo is very well worth this one
14:38 sri this one is even opt-in
14:43 marcus sri: why not use autoload for stash then ?
14:44 marcus if it's such a great feature
14:44 sri because the stash doesn't contain code refs?
14:45 sri the stash is highly dynamic by nature
14:45 sri helpers usually don't change state at runtime
14:45 marcus but autoload is evaluated at runtime anyways
14:46 sri so?
14:46 sri i dunno what you are after
14:46 marcus so you could easily make setters and getters for the stash
14:46 sri theoretically yes
14:46 marcus if you're arguing there's no big disadvantages to using autoload
14:46 sri what are you after?
14:47 marcus I just don't like autoload. it's too dynamic. It often makes debug painful.
14:47 sri quite sure we use other perl features that are just as vulnerable
14:47 marcus like attributes? :)
14:48 sri are you trolling again? i'm really unsure with you now after the last time :(
14:49 marcus no, I'm serious
14:50 marcus autoload was very popular in perl modules like 6-7 years ago
14:50 sri ok, can you give an example where autoload would be harmful for helpers?
14:50 marcus and it went out of fashion because it's makes debugging painful.
14:53 sri "WHERE DID THE BAD PROGRAMMER TOUCH YOU?" might be the appropriate response :)
14:55 marcus hmm
14:57 marcus I can't come up with a example where it'll be very bad for helpers at the moment.
14:58 marcus except maybe making a helper called new
14:59 marcus given that you have a class with a constructor to stuff the autoload into.
15:01 sri if new exists it doesn't reach AUTOLOAD
15:01 marcus yeah, that's why it would be bad and difficult to debug
15:02 sri huh?
15:02 marcus right now I can make a helper called new.
15:02 marcus since it's just a hash of coderefs
15:02 sri i think templates blow up too with a new helper
15:04 sri btw. vti has been using AUTOLOAD to bring helpers to the TT renderer, seems to work out good so far
15:07 marcus mkay
15:08 marcus I might be wrong about autoload for this case
15:09 sri lets find out, i'll mark it experimental anyway
15:09 marcus ok. I'm leaving work now.
15:09 marcus smell you later.
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15:33 GitHub170 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 5ca4d3d (4 files in 4 dirs): added experimental support for helper methods - http://bit.ly/c2pQh2
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15:34 sri please test! :)
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15:42 perlrocks Twitter: "Made #mojolicious helpers available as methods in controllers, should be more fun now, please test! :) http://bit.ly/9jeBuc #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/23155248692
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15:46 perlrocks Twitter: "Cool! I'm very very happy) RT: @kraih: Made #mojolicious helpers available as methods in controllers! :) http://bit.ly/9jeBuc #perl" --sharifulin http://twitter.com/sharifulin/status/23155583349
15:48 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @kraih: Made #mojolicious helpers available as methods in controllers, should be more fun now, please test! :) http://bit.ly/9jeBuc #perl" --insurgentsoft http://twitter.com/insurge​ntsoft/status/23155728990
16:00 sri actually we could go one step further :O
16:00 sri that would be quite crazy though
16:07 sri oh my
16:09 sri this might be borderline insane
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16:13 GitHub135 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 10950ae (4 files in 4 dirs): deprecated helper method in Mojolicious::Controller - http://bit.ly/cdvvW2
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16:13 sri helper methods are now much much easier :O
16:13 sri $self->foo
16:13 sri :D
16:14 sri it won't interfere with the dispatcher because AUTOLOAD doesn't affect ->can
16:14 sri there is lots of potential for things to break
16:14 sri TEST!
16:18 perlrocks Twitter: "Gone one step further and deprecated the helper method in #mojolicious, please test harder! :) http://bit.ly/cUiE9j #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/23158155769
16:20 perlrocks Twitter: "Yes, helpers are now really available as plain old controller methods in #mojolicious, lots of potential for new bugs, get testing! #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/23158319154
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16:25 sri the next step could be turning render methods and stuff into pure helpers
16:25 sri actually using AUTOLOAD as a safety net :D
16:25 * sri bonks marcus on the noggin
16:35 perlrocks Twitter: "#mojolicious plugins just got a lot more powerful. http://pastie.org/1141777 #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/23159500515
16:36 sri marcus: this is rails/sinatra crazyness, you will hate it
16:38 perlrocks Twitter: "what happens if foo is already buildin? RT: @kraih: #mojolicious plugins just got a lot more powerful. http://pastie.org/1141777 #perl" --esskar http://twitter.com/esskar/status/23159742567
16:41 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @kraih: #mojolicious plugins just got a lot more powerful. http://pastie.org/1141777 #perl" --insurgentsoft http://twitter.com/insurge​ntsoft/status/23159931007
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16:41 sri this is really crazy but makes so much sense
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17:05 vti omg
17:07 * sri bites vti and runs through the channel while making crazy noises
17:09 vti i am back and i am really scared
17:09 sri :D
17:10 vti plugins can be really powerful or really evil? ;p
17:10 sri both possibly
17:11 xantus_ :)
17:12 xantus_ bbl
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17:13 vti sri: i know where you live
17:13 sri :O
17:14 * sri hides under desk
17:14 vti do you remember that phrase from PBP book?
17:14 sri haha
17:15 vti but i hope you didn't break anything?
17:15 sri nothing
17:15 vti that's great
17:15 sri thats the cool thing, AUTOLOAD is actually a great safety net
17:15 sri all helpers are automatically protected from the dispatcher
17:16 vti hm, nice side effect :)
17:16 sri ye
17:18 sri http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwGFalTRHDA # lets celebrate with some quality russian music
17:23 * vti kicks sri
17:23 * sri mocks vti
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17:30 GitHub166 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * d7d2e6f (1 files in 1 dirs): improved helper example - http://bit.ly/9nP82I
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17:38 nrh sri: 0.999929
17:38 nrh i'll try github
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17:44 nrh sri: indeed it is fixed, thanks!
17:56 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @kraih: Defaulting to embedded #perl templates was once the most criticized decision in #mojolicious, today it's one of the hottest f ..." --yunh http://twitter.com/yunh/status/23165385851
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18:57 marcus http://greenokapi.net/blog/2008/07/03/more-​perl-hate-and-what-to-do-about-it-autoload/
19:00 sri marcus: hah, "You can’t use ‘can‘ to find out whether your object provides the method or not." thats what allows us to use it :)
19:01 sri and we don't have silent errors
19:02 sri marcus: btw. i went one step further ;p
19:02 marcus I noticed
19:02 marcus what about the performance bit, btw?
19:02 sri what about it?
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19:03 marcus how much slower than normal dispatch is autoload?
19:03 sri i don't care
19:03 sri ->helper(foo => ...) is equal already
19:03 sri you forget that we have no fast alternative
19:04 marcus are you sure it's about as fast as a hashref lookup?
19:04 sri huh?
19:04 sri both are hashref lookups
19:05 marcus what you have in the cpan version is a hashref lookup. What you have now is AUTOLOAD
19:05 sri umm
19:05 sri it's almost the same
19:05 sri sub AUTOLOAD vs sub helper
19:06 sri there is prolly a minimal method lookup penalty
19:07 sri but the usability improvement is totally worth it for me
19:07 marcus cool
19:07 marcus btw, why the silent return at the start of your autoload? When is that triggered?
19:08 sri never
19:08 marcus what is it good for then?
19:08 sri also important $self->helper(...) is currently almost unused
19:09 sri people don't like it
19:09 sri $self->... will open the door for a whole new generation of plugins
19:09 sri $self->auth_basic(...) anyone?
19:10 sri it is pleasant to use
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19:12 GitHub5 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * b306324 (1 files in 1 dirs): cleanup - http://bit.ly/97hm2c
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19:12 sri marcus: and gone :)
19:13 sri of course this is totally rails style, but it works great for them
19:14 sri i like the simplicity of rails plugins
19:14 marcus rails uses mixins, right?
19:14 sri right
19:14 sri all over the place
19:15 marcus which is kind of like moose roles, only more icky.
19:15 sri which is actually quite funny, last i checked their mixins were implemnted with multiple inheritance internally :)
19:16 sri i prefer mixins to roles
19:16 sri roles always feel way overengineered
19:17 marcus roles actually resolve conflicts rather than just silently picking the last one
19:17 marcus http://chadfowler.com/2009/7/8/how​-ruby-mixins-work-with-inheritance
19:18 sri "Mutable stateful objects are the new spaghetti code."
19:19 marcus -- Rich Hickey
19:20 marcus that's basically an argument against all perl oop tho.
19:20 marcus state is hard, let's write lisp?
19:21 * sri has high hopes for Reia
19:21 sri ruby for the erlang virtual machine
19:30 sri i think our AUTOLOAD use case is actually quite interesting
19:30 sri we benefit a lot from side effects
19:33 sri marcus: AUTOLOAD is by far not as evil as MODIFY_CODE_ATTRIBUTES :)
19:34 sri i still remember when we started playing around with it for catalyst
19:34 perlrocks Twitter: "Having violent discussions about AUTOLOAD in #mojolicious" --marcusramberg http://twitter.com/marcusr​amberg/status/23171606811
19:34 sri heh
19:34 marcus attributes for catalyst was a pretty bad idea, in hindsight
19:35 * sri punches marcus
19:35 * marcus bleeds on sri
19:35 sri well, python folks think attributes are awesome (still)
19:35 sri then again it's all they have
19:37 marcus unlike us, who have Devel::Declare
19:37 sri we don't even need Devel::Declare
19:37 sri they just don't have powerful lambdas
19:38 sri what they did to address it was a bandaid fix called "with", which is horrible
19:39 marcus I thought Guido hated lambdas
19:41 sri when it comes to good looking apis perl is really in a good position
19:41 sri not as good as ruby, but not as far off as some people believe
19:44 marcus well, a lot of rails sugar uses method_missing
19:45 marcus so I guess you have to use AUTOLOAD to compete ;)
19:45 marcus Rails implements some of its funkiest magic with method_missing. When you ask your model to find_by_freaky_column_name, and it does so, that’s because ActiveRecord::Base overrides the kernel’s method_missing method.
19:48 sri fun
19:49 sri not that i would do it much differently :D
19:54 * chansen haha, MODIFY_CODE_ATTRIBUTES() brings back memories ;P
19:55 marcus chansen: thoughts about AUTOLOAD?
20:00 chansen I rarely use it, but it's nice if you need it
20:03 sri if your problem is a nail, use a hammer :)
20:06 marcus fair enough. guess I will learn to stop worrying and love the bomb.
20:08 sri if your problem is a bomb, blow stuff up?
20:09 marcus http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4327024
20:09 sri yeye, i'm just not funny today :(
20:10 marcus sri: don't worry, *your mummy* thinks you are funny.
20:13 sri http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023245/
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20:14 MojoGuest997 lol
20:14 marcus guess not
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20:20 chansen ok, now I have more context (read a bit more scrollback) regarding the AUTOLOAD, I can understand marcus concerns, I would think twice before breaking ->can
20:21 chansen is the reason for the change is purely syntex?
20:21 sri purely syntax
20:22 sri we actually benefit from ->can not working
20:22 chansen ok, that was my next question ;)
20:22 sri the dispatcher uses ->can to determine if a method exists it can dispatch to :)
20:23 chansen ok
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20:33 sri wonder if i should start with rubicon
20:34 sri seems rather boring
20:41 esskar_ marcus: http://github.com/esskar/luzy :) but still beta
20:42 marcus wow, it even has 4 tests ;)
20:43 esskar_ :D
20:44 esskar_ but they (may) pass
20:44 tempire new helper syntax++
20:45 tempire not having to change anything except pod++
20:45 tempire Mojolicious::Plugin::BasicAuth is updated in github.  Just waiting for the 30 mojolicious release to cpan.
20:46 sri \o/
20:46 marcus esskar_: they do
20:46 marcus esskar_: am I supposed to be able to do something from /admin
20:47 esskar_ nothing more
20:47 esskar_ /admin should show the entries
20:47 esskar_ nothing more
20:48 marcus ok
20:51 esskar_ i'm not sure how to present the different langauges
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21:18 esskar_ added a multi language test
21:18 esskar_ good night
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