Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2010-10-02

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00:27 polvo how do i get number of elements in a $self->param('something') array?
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00:33 polvo ugh, $#{[ ( $self->param('something') ) ]};
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01:14 tempire polvo: you can use @ instead of $# if you're using it in scalar context (if statement, for example)
01:18 tempire and you don't need the parens inside the [ ]
01:19 tempire @{[ $self->param('something') ]}
01:40 polvo tempire, well, i got this from perldoc scalar -)
01:40 polvo i mean perlfunc on scalar
01:46 perlrocks Twitter: "Maybe I'll post the Catalyst Perl and server side of WAF What would I have? Mojolicious and?" (ja) --kokogiko http://twitter.com/kokogiko/status/26134788369
01:50 perlrocks Twitter: "RT! Kokogiko: I might also do server side post in Perl and Catalyst WAF What would I have? Mojolicious and?" (ja) --perlism http://twitter.com/perlism/status/26135044547
01:52 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious:: Lite - Mojolicious Japanese translation project documents - livedoor Wiki (Wiki) http://htn.to/KXPdsG" (ja) --kokogiko http://twitter.com/kokogiko/status/26135243597
01:56 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious and WebSockets / No time to wait http://htn.to/CtcAVW" (ja) --kokogiko http://twitter.com/kokogiko/status/26135538963
02:07 alnewkirk http://ana.im - go nuts tweeting the article :}
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02:50 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Pirolla the Mojolicious:: Lite is very nice" (pt) --rodrigogregori http://twitter.com/rodrigo​gregori/status/26139524522
02:51 sri alnewkirk: give us something to retweet ;)
02:52 alnewkirk sri, sorry, heres the link, http://ana.im/press/2010/09/mojoli​cious-the-web-in-a-box-with-a-bow/
02:52 alnewkirk thanx guys
02:52 sri make it a real tweet with #perl and #mojolicious tags
02:53 sri then perlrocks picks it up and people start retweeting
02:55 alnewkirk nice, that bot is somethin special :}
02:56 alnewkirk on another note, sri check this out, http://blogs.perl.org/users/erez_s​chatz/2010/09/whats-in-a-name.html
02:56 sri seen it, hehe
02:58 sri the name mojolicious was chosen strategically, i wanted something nobody else used before
02:59 alnewkirk use TheSwartz; # i laughed out loud at my office on that one
02:59 alnewkirk die at ... line ... , cannot find TheSwartz
02:59 sri being original makes brand building trivial
02:59 alnewkirk yup
03:00 alnewkirk use Oogly::Aagly
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12:09 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @ kraih: Looks like we'll soon be able to run our apps inside mojolicious # @ couchdb, wow! http://bit.ly/ajiTvT # perl" (de) --SaschaDroste http://twitter.com/SaschaDroste/status/26168843364
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12:27 GitHub140 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 7665800 (1 files in 1 dirs): added tests
12:27 GitHub140 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 541ede8 (1 files in 1 dirs): cleanup
12:27 GitHub140 mojo: master commits 30032c7...541ede8 - http://bit.ly/a8VaNK
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13:29 marcus_ sri: http://gist.github.com/607640 I'm done
13:31 perlrocks Twitter: "I've written a guide to testing your #mojolicious application. Until @kraih accepts it you can check it out here: http://bit.ly/9X7Ebf" --marcusramberg http://twitter.com/marcusr​amberg/status/26174099876
13:32 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @marcusramberg: I've written a guide to testing your #mojolicious application. Until @kraih accepts it you can check it out here: htt ..." --burakgursoy http://twitter.com/burakgursoy/status/26174151896
13:37 kvorg marcus_: very nice so far; except where you are being a bit too liberal:
13:37 kvorg s/liberal CSS-selector based liberal XML parser/CSS2-selector based liberal XML parser/
13:37 kvorg ups, *CSS#
13:37 kvorg dammit *CSS3
13:37 marcus_ oops, I just changed that from simple to liberal :D
13:39 kvorg lolz
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13:41 kvorg is jquery link ok? better: s{api.jquery.org/category/selectors/}{L<< http://api.jquery.com/category/selectors/ >>}
13:42 kvorg i have some more, send you in an email or diff via gist?
13:42 kvorg ach, i can commit to a gist?
13:43 * kvorg goes idling for 4 hrs.
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13:53 sri marcus_: looks good, bit small for a guide though, and way too few examples
13:54 sri what i'm aiming for is sentence, example, sentence, example... :)
13:55 sri guess it could be turned into cookbook recipes
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14:22 GitHub175 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 0b34e07 (2 files in 2 dirs): added not pseudo class to Mojo::DOM - http://bit.ly/ctQPqs
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14:22 sri very tricky one
14:22 sri at least they can't be nested, that would be impossible to parse without a recursive regex
14:24 sri not many css3 selectors we don't support yet
14:24 sri only trivial ones left or those that don't make sense like :hover
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14:51 alnewkirk sri, how do you feel about M::C::Package generating a .htaccess file also
14:52 alnewkirk maybe we can name it htaccess without the . so that its not read by default by your web server
14:52 sri alnewkirk: up to you, but i wouldn't do it
14:53 alnewkirk ok
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14:58 GitHub58 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 1d3b8d0 (1 files in 1 dirs): formalize documentation requirements - http://bit.ly/auGDy2
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14:59 GitHub163 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 7928072 (1 files in 1 dirs): cleanup - http://bit.ly/9ItT8O
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15:00 sri think i'll be rather picky about the example part, since wall of text documentation is usually one of the first things that make me stop reading up on a new project
15:01 alnewkirk i concur
15:03 sri not that i dislike articles, just think they are better off in a magazine or blog ;)
15:07 alnewkirk lengthy documentation that is not in a Manual.pod is a definate turn-off
15:08 alnewkirk especially when placed under synopsis (what an oxy-moron)
15:08 alnewkirk :}
15:08 sri :)
15:27 perlrocks Twitter: "alnewkirk pushed to master at alnewkirk/Mojolicious-Command-Package:                            ... http://bit.ly/aiZQvc #github #alnewkirk" --alnewkirkassoc http://twitter.com/alnewki​rkassoc/status/26183470628
15:27 perlrocks Twitter: "alnewkirk pushed to master at alnewkirk/Mojolicious-Command-Package:                            ... http://bit.ly/alxd7z #github #alnewkirk" --alnewkirkassoc http://twitter.com/alnewki​rkassoc/status/26183470898
15:27 perlrocks Twitter: "alnewkirk pushed to master at alnewkirk/Mojolicious-Command-Package:                            ... http://bit.ly/9urHIt #github #alnewkirk" --alnewkirkassoc http://twitter.com/alnewki​rkassoc/status/26183471215
15:27 sri you might want to turn that off ;p
15:28 alnewkirk yeah that is annoying, ..., and also who care :\
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15:32 GitHub135 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 952defa (2 files in 2 dirs): added two more pseudo classes to Mojo::DOM - http://bit.ly/bRUYpu
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15:34 sri ok, think we have the css3 spec covered now :D
15:34 sri everything else is browser specific
15:37 perlrocks Twitter: "CSS3 selector support is pretty much complete in Mojo::DOM now, happy testing! :) http://bit.ly/aGzvk3 #perl #mojolicious" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/26184333161
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15:52 GitHub165 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 468f58c (3 files in 3 dirs): renamed the methods name and replace_content to type and replace_inner in Mojo::DOM - http://bit.ly/cCq75y
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15:56 sri ok, those were the finishing touches, Mojo::DOM is ready :)
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16:03 GitHub175 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 84a0a54 (2 files in 2 dirs): refer to Mojo::DOM from Test::Mojo - http://bit.ly/b2oTo3
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16:03 sri so far we are even css3 strict, the jquery additions don't seem that useful to me atm
16:05 sri especially the conflicting behavior of nth-child() and eq() seems rather confusing
16:06 sri one starts at index 0 the other at 1
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16:10 perlrocks Twitter: "Quite sure Mojo::DOM is now the most fun to use #perl XML parser. :) #mojolicious" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/26187132038
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16:14 GitHub158 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * c3177a4 (1 files in 1 dirs): friendlier examples - http://bit.ly/9ujj4f
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16:20 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @kraih: Quite sure Mojo::DOM is now the most fun to use #perl XML parser. :) #mojolicious" --tempiretech http://twitter.com/tempiretech/status/26187896081
16:59 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @ kraih: sure Remove Mojo:: DOM is now the MOST fun to use # perl XML parser. :) # Mojolicious" (es) --elsanto_wa http://twitter.com/elsanto_wa/status/26191032989
18:09 perlrocks Twitter: "By mail lesson # Perl Monday to fine tune and now thinking about the test. Beware, guys. # # Mojo Tiwi" (nl) --t1mdp http://twitter.com/t1mdp/status/26196086211
18:19 janus tracalicious or tracaholic? killing trac because it annoys me...
18:21 perlrocks Twitter: "T1mdp @ RT: # Perl via mail the lesson from Monday to fine tune and now thinking about the test. Beware, guys. # # Mojo Tiwi" (nl) --pietercolpaert http://twitter.com/pieterc​olpaert/status/26196938075
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18:28 marcus_ sri: busy bee
18:31 marcus_ sri: with regards to size, the article is about 1000 words, twice of what you said would be enough for a guide.
18:32 marcus_ sri: I wouldn't mind increasing the number of examples. Testing is important enough that it should have it's own guide, imo.
18:33 marcus_ As it is, I feel like the cookbook should have been renamed 'Guides::Deployment
18:33 marcus_ as it doesn't really contain any cookbook examples except the hello world example.
18:37 sri marcus: i meant lines :)
18:38 sri words would be rather bad, words would encourage wall of text
18:39 sri the cookbook is supposed to hold all topics that are too small for a separate guide
18:39 sri few more deployment recipes and we can add a deployment guide
18:40 sri this is not about a topic deserving its own guide
18:41 sri its just about having enough material for it
18:43 sri i wouldn't mind having 100+ guides in the end, but i don't want a hundred pod files each holding just 3-4 recipes
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18:46 GitHub103 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * f1d84d1 (1 files in 1 dirs): made documentation requirements more clear - http://bit.ly/ceKqHc
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18:55 marcus_ sri: your guides are about 2000 words
18:56 sri less words more examples :)
18:56 marcus_ examples counts as words as well :p
18:56 marcus_ it's about the total size of the article
18:56 sri nope
18:56 sri articles shouldn't even go in there
18:57 marcus_ argh
18:57 marcus_ I feel like we're talking past eachother
18:57 sri possibly
18:57 marcus_ all of your guides are articles
18:57 sri they are collections of related examples
18:58 marcus_ + descriptions
18:58 sri i'll merge your guide into the cookbook
18:58 sri (for now)
18:59 marcus_ ok.
18:59 sri i'll break up the bigger paragraphs though
18:59 marcus_ good
18:59 sri and add some more examples
18:59 sri :)
18:59 marcus_ go for it.
19:01 sri i don't like that you didn't explain test driven development :/
19:01 sri heavy words need explanation
19:03 sri hmm, it actually overlaps quite a bit with one of my unfinished guides :S
19:03 sri i explain TDD there already
19:04 marcus_ which guide is that?
19:04 sri growing
19:04 sri it explains the basic life cycle of a mojolicious app, starting with tdd
19:04 sri over a lite prototype, ending in a normal app
19:06 sri hmm, i need to finish that first before merging :S
19:06 sri marcus_: can you put your version into the wiki for now?
19:06 marcus_ sri: sure.
19:07 sri great
19:07 marcus_ that way kvorg can update it with his changes as well
19:07 sri right
19:07 sri we need to push the wiki a bit
19:10 marcus_ http://github.com/kraih/mojo/wiki/Testing
19:10 sri marcus++
19:10 sri please tweet so i can retweet :)
19:11 sri yay for incubating new guides in the wiki
19:12 perlrocks Twitter: "My #mojolicious testing guide now lives in the mojolicious wiki until it's ready to move to the core docs. http://bit.ly/bNeKMn" --marcusramberg http://twitter.com/marcusr​amberg/status/26200276546
19:12 sri aww, 6 chars too long
19:14 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @marcusramberg: My testing guide now lives in the #mojolicious wiki until it's ready to move to the core. http://bit.ly/bNeKMn #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/26200454398
19:15 marcus_ just change it to 'ready for the core§
19:15 marcus_ ah, you remove docs.
19:15 sri also tagging it with #perl ;p
19:15 sri and the second mojolicious
19:15 marcus_ :D
19:15 marcus_ what's the point of the second #?
19:16 sri which second #?
19:16 marcus_ #mojolicious wiki
19:16 sri why not tag it?
19:17 sri oh, nono
19:17 sri i removed the first
19:17 marcus_ ah, yes
19:17 sri thats how i got the chars for #perl :D
19:17 marcus_ ;)
19:26 * marcus_ drinks rum and orange juice
19:27 perlrocks Twitter: "# OhMyGod! RT @ t1mdp via mail lesson # Perl Monday to fine tune and now thinking about the test. Beware, guys. # # Mojo Tiwi" (nl) --Tanfoglio_ http://twitter.com/Tanfoglio_/status/26201240524
19:30 * sri drinks pepsi
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20:07 kvorg marcus_: Re-reading the Testing guide: hmmm, you claim that "most of your logic should reside in the model layer". I would expect the logic to reside in the controller layer?
20:08 sri in a well designed app it's in the model layer
20:09 sri the less experienced the developer the more logic you find on the controller layer
20:10 sri ideally the controller just connects the pieces
20:11 sri the reason is simply reusability
20:12 sri a well designed model layer can have other frontends than a web app
20:19 kvorg sri: thanx
20:21 kvorg marcus_: Some minor text improvements in the Testing.pod, also removed some double spaces, added a (possibly superfluos) CSS3 clarification, fixed C<< >> syntax and added more C<> and L<> tags, some spacing around strings in examples.
20:23 kvorg marcus_: I also thought the end of the pod was a bit abrupt. So I added a possibly horrible closing chapter (u want to remove that) and a traditional SEE ALSO, which you want to improve.
20:26 kvorg sri: I overlooked you mentioning an existing guide in progress talking about TDD. I hope to see that soon, but surely you can integrate marcus_'s work?
20:27 kvorg if anyone tested Mojo::Plugin::TagHelpersExtra from http://github.com/kvorg/mojolic​ious-plugin-tag_helpers_extra/  - i am looking for some feedback
20:28 kvorg (i realize tables are horribly over-engineered and horribly coded, but the rest should be useful)
20:28 kvorg also, would anyone be interest in a list helper for making ol ul and dl from arrays?
20:28 kvorg *interested
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20:38 marcus_ kvorg: if you prefer, we could say 'business logic' to make it clearer.
20:39 kvorg marcus_: look further at explanation from sri. i am just a user, and i think the wording should remain as it since it appears more correct in view of that comment.
20:39 marcus_ kvorg: I read that comment before making mine.
20:40 marcus_ but it's fine to leave it as it is as well.
20:40 kvorg ahh, do as you think. for me, 'business logic' is a derogatory term, but that might be because I am in academia for too long
20:41 marcus_ kvorg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_logic
20:41 kvorg i know, but if you just look at those two words one next to each other ... makes me think of Market Forces by Morgan.
20:42 kvorg hmm, interesting, domain logic. i haven't encountered that use much.
20:44 kvorg marcus_: i should have perhaps pointed out that all that about business logic was supposed to be a pun, no harm intended? ASCII^H^H^H^H^HUTF-8 communication can be so misleading. :-P
20:44 marcus_ it can be :)
20:45 marcus_ Also, it could be I wasn't in academia long enough.
20:45 marcus_ <- college dropout :)
20:46 sri college dropout is much cooler than a phd these days :)
20:48 marcus_ unless you want a visa to move to the US.
20:49 marcus_ sky actually managed to get an extraordinary ability green card tho.
21:00 kvorg i don't want a visa to move to the US. they do strange things to some foreign nationals :-O
21:15 marcus_ kvorg: you mean like medical experiments?
21:15 marcus_ kvorg: where are you from?
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21:40 kvorg slovenia
21:40 kvorg perhaps i should say: Ljubljana, Slovenia, CEST to avoid a google search?
21:41 marcus_ kvorg: nah, I know slovenia.
21:41 marcus_ I actually guess kosovo from your hostname, so I wasn't that far off.
21:44 marcus_ guessed even
21:50 kvorg from my current hostname???
21:51 kvorg the one in the office is a dead give away ... but there u should be guessing on 'kabel'.
21:53 kvorg marcus_: google joke is a local pun too. the country was a bit low on the recognition scale some 15 years back. now the tourism business has gotten to the point of painfully queuing for pizza behind nothing but tourists.
21:53 * kvorg goes: bloody tourists.
21:53 kvorg i tried to follow them once.
21:53 marcus_ :D
21:53 marcus_ I've not been a tourist there yet.
21:54 kvorg still don't know what they do and where they go.
21:54 kvorg there, u tell me once u do that.
21:54 marcus_ I was in montenegro last year tho, it's close
21:54 marcus_ and we even drove into croatia, which borders slovenia I guess..
21:55 marcus_ I liked Montenegro. Cheap beer, nice beaches, and nice sights.
21:55 kvorg yeah, ljubljana-zagreb is 140 km
21:55 kvorg lovely, montenegro.
21:56 * kvorg realizes it is being off-topic and hides.
21:57 * marcus_ doesn't care,
21:58 marcus_ it's not like we're interupting important conversation.
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22:32 marcus_ sri: I was thinking that Mojo::DOM would be a fucking cool template language.
22:32 marcus_ just write your templates as pure XHTML, and populate them using the DOM.
22:34 sri marcus_: hell no
22:35 * chansen has finally written his first blog entry ;P
22:35 marcus_ sri: http://search.cpan.org/~tomita/Template​-Semantic-0.06/lib/Template/Semantic.pm
22:36 marcus_ chansen: where is your blog?
22:36 chansen blogs.perl.org
22:36 sri something interesting?
22:36 chansen http://blogs.perl.org/users/chansen/
22:36 chansen title: Coping with double encoded UTF-8
22:37 sri oh, that is interesting
22:38 sri chansen: joined twitter too? :)
22:39 * marcus_ is heading for bed now. Daughter gets up at 7.30 tomorrow at the latest.
22:39 marcus_ nite guys
22:39 sri nn
22:39 chansen good night
22:40 chansen sri: yes, but I don't use it, nick: 0xCH
22:40 sri ah
22:40 marcus_ now you have a follower, at least :)
22:40 chansen =)
22:41 sri 2!

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