Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2010-10-04

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 alnewkirk|com i plan to see to soon tempire, was gonna wait for DVD
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07:06 Rhaen moin!
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08:38 und3f sri, is it normal to set session default expiration time in sub startup{ ?
08:41 und3f oh, right it works.
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09:14 crab yes, it's normal. where else would you set it?
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10:50 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @kraih: RT @marcusramberg: Just submitted a #Mojolicious presentation to London #Perl Workshop 2010. http://conferences.yapceurope.or ..." --zakame http://twitter.com/zakame/status/26351064896
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11:06 Rhaen yay yay yay
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11:38 marcus_ row row row your boat gently down the stream
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12:38 sri moin
12:51 marcus_ moin
12:52 * marcus_ had a martini lunch today
12:52 marcus_ feeling fiiiin
12:52 marcus_ +e
13:02 sri :)
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13:56 marcus_ http://mongrel2.org/doc/tip/do​cs/manual/book.wiki#x1-580005.1.3
14:00 sri lol
14:00 sri spot on rant
14:02 sri but he might be a little off with the unicode thing
14:03 sri javascript has more trouble with bytes than unicode
14:16 marcus_ sri: heh, I just found a bit of a problem.
14:16 marcus_ if you load lite apps the way you recommend in Mojo::Lite docs, the name of the test app becomes the name of the app
14:17 marcus_ so if I have a t/ws.t for myapp-ws.pl, the json config will look for ws.json
14:17 sri feel free to fix
14:17 marcus_ how?
14:18 sri i don't know
14:19 marcus_ ok, guess I will rename my test to the same as the app for now
14:19 sri send a doc patch please :)
14:21 marcus_ sri: http://gist.github.com/609758
14:22 sri marcus++
14:23 marcus_ sri: how do I get to the config from app in a lite app?
14:23 sri my $config = plugin ....;
14:24 marcus_ ah
14:26 marcus_ http://gist.github.com/609767 looks amusing
14:26 marcus_ (not the fail, the help message)
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14:29 GitHub114 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * b493f26 (1 files in 1 dirs): test cleanup - http://bit.ly/azHbhc
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14:47 GitHub122 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * a821f78 (2 files in 2 dirs): added external lite app test - http://bit.ly/9YV4AK
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14:50 marcus_ gabb: :p
14:51 gabb :D
14:51 sri gabb!!!!
14:51 gabb man, missed you guys :)
14:51 gabb how have you all been?
14:51 marcus_ gabb: so, are you a fat-cat java developer now?
14:51 sri :O
14:51 sri we missed you too
14:51 marcus_ gabb: I'm good. I have my own company in Oslo these days :)
14:51 sri few weeks ago i actually asked if someone had seen you
14:51 gabb I abandoned the java and lost the little coding skills I ever had
14:52 gabb lol, needed a logo sri? :P
14:52 sri i make my own logos these days :D
14:52 marcus_ sri is making his own logos these days.
14:52 marcus_ :D
14:52 gabb cool marcus - same company as when you visited berlin some time ago ... I guess 2 years? :P
14:52 gabb haha, cool
14:52 marcus_ gabb: yeah, nordaaker.com
14:52 gabb I hope not all are black ravens on trees :P
14:52 marcus_ we've just hired our 5th employee.
14:53 marcus_ gabb: his design is pretty cheery - http://mojolicious.org/
14:53 gabb jesus marcus, you are everywhere - I googled Plack recently and ramberg here, ramberg there, ramberg said this :P
14:53 gabb hey that looks awesome
14:53 sri gabb: naah, even using colors now!
14:53 sri gabb: http://blog.kraih.com
14:55 gabb so I see an 8th (or so) web framework derivate is born? :P
14:55 sri evolution
14:56 gabb ah, my 5pm is here, afk for 10-15 min, brb :)
14:56 sri then again you could say maypole was web 1.0, catalyst web 2.0 and mojolicious will be for web 3.0
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15:00 gabb well, that was a quick meeting
15:00 * sri is still a little freelancer
15:01 sri (with an evil plan)
15:01 marcus_ gabb: what are you doing these days?
15:01 marcus_ (My 5pm, sounds a bit dirty)
15:01 gabb ye, I am a hooker
15:01 marcus_ and blow!
15:01 gabb erm, not really, but close, doing my PhD
15:01 sri ewww
15:01 gabb my 5pm was a student who makes a habit out of annoying the shit outta me
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15:03 marcus_ gabb: trying to avoid the real world forever, eh? :)
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15:03 gabb lol something like that, but I swore I won't become a professor after this
15:04 marcus_ gabb: I went to Croatia last year btw.
15:04 gabb i have build up too much resentiments against students :P
15:04 gabb ah nice, where to?
15:04 marcus_ Actually we went to montenegro, but drove into croatia on a day trip
15:05 gabb ah, montenegro, was it a survival trip? Or norther/central european guilt trip? :P
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15:05 GitHub119 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * b967187 (1 files in 1 dirs): cleanup - http://bit.ly/9HdUIL
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15:06 marcus_ gabb: nah, just normal vacation. Beaches and cheap beer
15:06 marcus_ gabb: drove up to dubrovnik
15:06 gabb cool, walked thru the old city?
15:06 marcus_ yes
15:07 marcus_ with $daughter in a trolley :)
15:07 gabb wait ...
15:07 gabb no, nope
15:07 gabb didnt knew you had a daughter, did I ?
15:08 marcus_ maybe not
15:08 marcus_ she's 19 months old
15:08 gabb ah, definetly did not, gratz mate
15:08 gabb may she get your coding skills and your wifeys looks :P
15:08 sri it's crazy how fast time passes by
15:08 gabb indeed mate :)
15:09 gabb oh ye, I actually had a question which got me to #cata in the first place - Parley is dead, right?
15:09 marcus_ gabb: http://picasaweb.google.com/olga.ramber​g/SardiniaSept2010#5521634546172321970
15:10 gabb dawwwwwwwww, what a cutey
15:11 marcus_ she is.
15:16 sri was there a simple way to detect the Test harness?
15:16 marcus_ gabb: they seem pretty dead.
15:16 marcus_ sri: yes
15:17 marcus_ there's an env var, lemme check
15:17 sri oh wait
15:17 marcus_ HARNESS_ACTIVE
15:17 sri does that work if you run tests directly?
15:17 marcus_ with prove, yes
15:17 marcus_ with perl, no
15:18 sri :S
15:18 marcus_ you could check $INC for Test::More ?
15:18 sri i wanted to turn off the help screen on perl t/foo.pl
15:18 sri s/pl/t/
15:18 marcus_ right, that would be nice
15:19 marcus_ even disabling it for prove  -v would be an improvement
15:19 marcus_ sri: any idea why post_ok would fail?
15:19 marcus_ it seems like a very basic test.
15:19 sri no post route?
15:20 sri MOJO_CLIENT_DEBUG=1 or MOJO_DAEMON_DEBUG=1 will always give you details
15:20 sri then you can observe on http level
15:20 marcus_ thanks
15:20 marcus_ should probably add something about that on the test guide
15:21 sri wouldn't consider it end use friendly yet
15:21 sri maybe it is good enough
15:21 marcus_ it's better than nothing
15:22 sri another testing recipe for the cookbook :)
15:22 marcus_ MM, it's giving a 404
15:23 sri smells like route missing
15:23 marcus_ no
15:23 sri activate log output
15:23 marcus_ adding a render_text('OK') fixed it
15:23 sri ah
15:23 sri you need to render something
15:23 marcus_ so it seems
15:24 sri missing template can trigger 404
15:25 marcus_ wasn't expecting that
15:25 marcus_ was expecting an empty response
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15:32 gabb is the "Mojo vs Dancer Top 100 Competition" an interesting read that may get me up to speed or should I find something better?
15:33 sri oh my no
15:33 sri dancer is not competition
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15:34 marcus_ sri: they have a lot of mindshare tho.
15:34 sri they might compete with Mojolicious::Lite, not with Mojolicious
15:35 sri not as much mindshare as we have
15:37 gabb so mojo::light is something standalone-ish for basic apps while mojolicious is aiming to be full-blown feature wise?
15:37 sri actually they share 99% of the features
15:37 sri lite is just a simplistic frontend
15:38 sri making the most used features esily accessible for single file prototype apps
15:39 gabb I see - can I read up anywhere on what seperates mojolicious from catalyst and so on ?
15:40 sri don't think so, wouldn't know where to start :)
15:41 sri at its core mojo is an implementation of LWPng
15:42 alnewkirk|com arrgg, so much Mojo work to do :\
15:43 sri the actual "web framework" is the tip of the iceberg
15:44 sri instead of abstracting away http we embrace it
15:44 alnewkirk|com :} thats sounds sinister
15:44 marcus_ sri: and web developers are the titanic?
15:44 alnewkirk|com next step, take over the world
15:44 gabb the tip of the iceberg is kinda the vibe I was getting when I tried to make sense of how/where Plack/PSGI and so on fit into the equation
15:44 sri catalyst is the titanic ;p
15:45 sri psgi is just a simple way for us to support minority platforms
15:45 gabb webdev with perl was both easier and more frustrating back then in mod_perl1 days :P
15:45 marcus_ sri: btw, the http debugging in psgi is frigging nice.
15:45 sri http debugging?
15:45 sri example?
15:46 marcus_ sri: http://blogs.perl.org/users/ovid/2010/09/writin​g-plack-debugging-middleware-for-catalyst.html
15:46 alnewkirk|com sri,. you must tell us more about this embedded http client you dream of
15:47 sri alnewkirk|com: i dream of? it is built right into mojolicious :)
15:47 sri marcus_: ah, the django debug toolabr
15:48 sri marcus_: that only works for html
15:48 marcus_ I'm holding a presentation for oslo.pm tomorrow titled Mojo as a HTTP Client
15:48 marcus_ sri: yes
15:48 marcus_ uhm, or
15:48 marcus_ I thought ovid was using it for their xml web service
15:49 alnewkirk|com looks that way
15:49 marcus_ Our application actually has an XML/JSON interface, so I had to do some work internally to recognize when I was debugging with PSGI and rewrite the responses as HTML and set a "200 OK" header (otherwise you won't get the debugging goodies):
15:49 sri and it wouldn't work for streaming responses
15:50 sri but it could totally be a trivial plugin using Mojo::DOM
15:50 sri you just watch for full html responses
15:51 marcus_ or you could just debug your mojolicious app through starman :)
15:51 sri we have all the tools built in
15:51 sri or that
15:51 sri starman causes more pain though, it resets $0 and stuff
15:52 sri better just take the plain psgi server plack ships with
15:53 sri actually
15:53 sri we have way better tools
15:53 * marcus_ heads out for sushi and beer.
15:53 sri built in servers are all async
15:53 sri we could just have a separate ajax panel analyzing log files in the background :)
15:54 alnewkirk|com today im porting a couple plugins I wrote for Dancer
15:54 sri that would work for everything
15:54 sri automatically
15:54 sri and you could get a request history
15:54 sri :)
15:54 alnewkirk|com mojolicious already has a Mojolicious::Plugin::Mail but my API is better, what should I do?
15:55 alnewkirk|com I dont want to create M::P::Email, seems ___
15:55 sri alnewkirk|com: the more plugins the merrier ;)
15:56 sri Mail::Simple maybe
15:56 alnewkirk|com im really excited about porting Template::Semantic, I think once I have that, i'll build something of significance
15:57 alnewkirk|com sri++ thanks
16:04 sri marcus_: actually i think i would use web sockets for live analytics
16:04 sri WEBSOCKETS!
16:05 sri on a separate analytics page
16:06 sri live streaming whats happening
16:06 sri hmm, i might actually implement that for $secret_project :D
16:09 sri thats actually what people should be developing instead of porting some years old django toolbar :)
16:12 sri live analytics would even be exciting on a production site at times
16:12 gabb this channel reads like the time catalyst 2.0 was around :P
16:12 gabb 3.0 was first proper release, right?
16:12 sri i take that as a compliment :)
16:13 sri or was it 2.99?
16:13 gabb you should :P I liked those early stages of development
16:13 gabb ye, 2.99 may have been it
16:13 sri those were the days
16:13 sri the whole real time web topic is very exciting in general
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16:14 gabb ye and comes in handy for $gabbs_secret_project too
16:14 gabb the whole web sockets thingie was what got me back into looking up what perl web dev does atm
16:14 sri our websocket support is pretty great
16:14 sri the spec is a mess though
16:15 sri it will break completely at least one more time
16:15 sri but we support it client and server side :)
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16:15 gabb so server-side push is no prob?
16:16 sri not at all
16:16 gabb cool, thats mainly what I am after :)
16:16 sri we do it with a custom server atm
16:17 sri the main problem you'll have is broken browser support
16:17 gabb ye :/
16:17 sri some are draft75, some draft76 and some are just plain broken
16:17 gabb firefox 4 beta or something
16:17 sri it's a total mess even if browsers support websockets
16:18 sri safari5 for example supports different versions of the protocol in different minor releases
16:18 gabb what spec you working with? the w3c stuff or IETF specification? I dunno if they differ in any way
16:18 sri some even entirely broken
16:18 sri draft76
16:18 sri now ietf i guess
16:19 gabb ye, thats ietf
16:19 sri in the end what matters is webkit nightly ;p
16:19 sri not so much the spec
16:20 sri our draft 76 support is quite good though
16:20 sri but if you're following the mailing list it is absolutely clear that everything will break again
16:21 gabb dont have too much time to follow the development, so basically just keep peeking at the draft once it updates again
16:21 gabb wonder how they will address, if at all, the security considerations
16:22 sri http handshake
16:22 sri or actually http like
16:22 sri they messed up there quite a bit
16:22 gabb ye
16:23 sri the whole Sec-* header thing is horibble
16:23 gabb both the origination problem and the encoding are so often done in related protocols that its just miserable how they didnt fix it from the getgo
16:24 gabb tbh I dont see why someone should use it for host-2-host anyway
16:24 sri draft 75 was really good, they should have just made the handshake 100% http compliant and everybody would have been happy
16:26 sri host-2-host it's actually not too bad, tcp with free message framing
16:26 sri if you're sending json messages it's really good
16:27 sri i think that was the main thought behind making it utf-8
16:27 gabb dunno, it irks me to implement host-2-host on that level - and if you really must do it, there are alternative protocols
16:27 sri javascript has limitations there
16:27 sri it's really bad at handling bytes
16:29 sri if i was designing websockets i would have prolly gone with an http handshake and upgrade to normal length prefixed binary messages
16:30 sri but the mailing list is filled with corporate drones...
16:30 gabb heh, google drones?
16:31 gabb i had a feeling that google was heavily involved in web sockets
16:31 sri they are, but there are people from every big company involved now
16:32 sri there have been talks about multiple streams on the same tcp connection and much more bullshit
16:32 sri people want websockets to solve all their little corporate problems now
16:33 gabb heh
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16:45 sri hmm, actually long polling might just work for live analytics, since you only really need to receive data
16:46 gabb :/
16:46 gabb limits options for $secret_project
16:47 sri depends if you can control which browser peple use to access your secret project
16:47 gabb at the very least you'd want to cut/re-arrange data and depending on what kind of and how much of data we're talking here, I don't wanna see all that happening in the client
16:48 sri your secret project is about live analytics too? :)
16:49 gabb something like that, ye - a mix of analytics and dashboard functionality
16:49 gabb but I want interaction, I have rather complex data in mind, stuff that would most likely be placed in a data warehouse due to dimensionality
16:50 sri i basically want http://demo.hummingbirdstats.com/ + mojolicious integration for in depth analytics data
16:51 gabb not loading for me
16:51 sri http://hummingbirdstats.com/
16:52 gabb ah, webkit required I guess
16:52 gabb would need to switch to dev machine
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17:15 sri bbq time!
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17:26 gabb after seeing hummingbird my munin installation looks rather shite :D
17:41 alnewkirk|com the zero deps thing is uber cool until you realize that all the plugins you like that make the framework tastier require alot of deps :{
17:43 gabb im fine with plugins being deptastic as long as core is clean and simple
17:43 gabb what annoyed the most about deploying catalyst onto a new box was dealing with deps for 2 hours before even running the create.pl script
17:43 gabb *annoyed me the most
17:44 alnewkirk|com gabb++ me too
17:45 alnewkirk|com i never understood that policy of "fuck you if its too difficult or lengthy"
17:45 alnewkirk|com dont we care about noobs anymore?
17:47 gabb somewhere along the way people stop bothering I guess
17:47 gabb its kinda natural on the one hand, but it sucks for beginners and your growing userbase
17:48 gabb as a temporary educator I can relate to not giving a fuck about noobs / students who don't grasp basic concepts
17:48 gabb but then again, I suck it up and still deal with a problem they present which I have solved a million times
17:51 alnewkirk|com gabb, have you seen http://goo.gl/5SnV
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18:37 sri alnewkirk|com: well, you can build some pretty cool apps with only core and couchdb
18:37 sri or actually any http web service
18:37 alnewkirk|com sri, point me to a coo perl/couchdb article please
18:38 sri wish i could
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18:38 alnewkirk|com sri, im not partial to EP or EPL
18:39 sri epl is just a subset of ep
18:39 sri pretty much raw Mojo::Template
18:39 sri nobody is supposed to really use it
18:40 sri it is mostly there for backcompat
18:40 alnewkirk|com yeah, coming from TT its seems ....
18:40 alnewkirk|com i remember when EP was introduced
18:40 alnewkirk|com we can do what PHP is doing also
18:40 alnewkirk|com but not really
18:41 alnewkirk|com and why would we want to
18:41 alnewkirk|com ... sorta thing
18:41 sri i always loved rails template blocks
18:41 sri glad we have those now
18:41 alnewkirk|com Template::Semantic and HTML::Zoom are the way the truth and the light :}
18:41 alnewkirk|com templating without fucking with your HTML, much
18:42 alnewkirk|com mustache is horrid
18:42 sri dunno, that feels like adding yet another layer
18:42 alnewkirk|com Xslate is gross
18:42 sri i actually like the mustache tags :)
18:42 alnewkirk|com actually its taking away a layer
18:42 sri {{ foo }}
18:42 alnewkirk|com ewww
18:42 alnewkirk|com :}
18:43 sri wonder why haml has not more fans though
18:43 alnewkirk|com takes away a layer because you arent creating another markup language
18:43 sri vtis implementation is really good
18:43 alnewkirk|com your just manipulating html in a better way
18:43 alnewkirk|com oh and your code stays where it belongs, in your code files
18:43 alnewkirk|com logic i mena*
18:43 alnewkirk|com mean*
18:43 sri you are transforming xml, that has failed a few times before
18:44 alnewkirk|com lesser of two evils type of thing
18:45 sri in theory it's quite appealing, but i don't think it can be implemented to look very natural
18:46 sri take for example sticky form values, thats a horrible amount of transformations
18:47 alnewkirk|com sticky form values?
18:48 sri in ep it is <%= check_box name => 'value' %>
18:48 alnewkirk|com ah, that stuff
18:48 sri it will automatically fill out the form value if the form is rendered again
18:48 alnewkirk|com they did the microsoft to me
18:49 vti i wonder from where it was stolen... :D
18:49 alnewkirk|com took a known concept, gave it a new hip name and ... it a new thing
18:49 sri vti: rails
18:49 alnewkirk|com ha
18:49 sri well, not exactly rails, theirs are bound to the model
18:50 alnewkirk|com so you give the wrappers vars default values, done
18:51 sri django has something similar though
18:51 alnewkirk|com $form_field = $param_value || $session_value; #blah
18:51 alnewkirk|com Oogly-Aagly does this by default also usign TT
18:52 alnewkirk|com simple concept, easy to implement
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18:52 sri it's a big step from "easy to implement" to "just works" though :)
18:53 * alnewkirk|com is perturbed, can't get git to launch my external visual diff tool
18:53 sri but i'm looking forward to your implementation
18:53 alnewkirk|com it will be sweet
18:53 alnewkirk|com im going to do it tonight actually
18:54 sri templating is always a matter of taste, there is no golden bullet
18:54 alnewkirk|com true
18:54 alnewkirk|com i dicked around for a few months on community projects and now I have to actually build web apps, you know, for work and stuff
18:57 sri ep is just a convenient  default to fall back on, ideally i would like to support all template systems equally well
18:58 sri the tools for that are pretty much all there, but it could use some cleaning
18:59 sri (as the new tt renderer demonstrated)
19:00 alnewkirk|com TT3
19:00 alnewkirk|com oh, nevermind
19:00 sri vti: btw. inline support missing from tt renderer ;p
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19:02 * vti opens up vi
19:02 sri \o/
19:03 sri i think haml deserves some more blog posts
19:04 sri lol, someone made a TT template for haml
19:04 sri umm plugin
19:05 sri would actually be a cool tag helper *hint hint*
19:05 sri <%= haml begin %>%html<% end %>
19:08 sri so many things to do so few time :S
19:18 sri interesting, jquery has a template system too now
19:18 sri http://api.jquery.com/category/plugins/templates/
19:19 sri i give it a day until someone ports it to perl
19:20 sri it's almost mustache
19:20 alnewkirk|com sri, they already did, Text::Xslate
19:20 alnewkirk|com sri++
19:20 alnewkirk|com it is, its a port
19:20 alnewkirk|com someone sent me a link yesterday
19:20 sri lol
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19:21 sri gabb!
19:21 vti hm, inline doesn't work for me
19:21 alnewkirk|com http://mustache.github.com/
19:21 sri Oo
19:21 sri vti: it has tests
19:22 gabb I need to get my screen on the new server set up I guess and perma-idle in here again :)
19:22 alnewkirk|com GOd that markup is ugly
19:22 sri gabb: or use a bouncer
19:22 sri znc is quite good
19:22 sri i check the channel from my iphone! :)
19:23 gabb for some reason I prefer screen + irssi, always have
19:25 sri that would be painful on an iphone
19:26 gabb indeed, but I am using an android phone anyway :P
19:26 gabb (not like its much better on that either)
19:26 sri grr...perlrocks crashed again
19:26 sri colloquy is quite good on the iphone
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19:28 gabb hetzner I see :P
19:28 sri ye :)
19:28 sri they used to be quite good
19:28 sri not sure about the new datacenter
19:29 gabb just got myself a new EQ4 for $secret_project
19:29 gabb RZ10? Yes, dunno either if its good yet
19:29 gabb was in RZ6 for the last 7 years and all was smooth sailing
19:29 sri they moved all my servers there
19:29 gabb at least the catalyst/dbic mailing lists were not down because of connection/uplink alot :P
19:30 gabb ye, RZ10 is Falkenstein, the new location
19:34 gabb is now known as gabbs
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19:35 sri !tweet viva la revolucion! #perl #mojolicious
19:35 perlrocks Twitter: "viva la revolucion! #perl #mojolicious --sri" --perlrocks http://twitter.com/perlrocks/status/26389425849
19:35 perlrocks sri: http://twitter.com/perlrocks/status/26389425849
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20:28 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious::Plugin::TtRenderer now supports inline templates http://bit.ly/ac00px #Mojolicious #perl" --vtivti http://twitter.com/vtivti/status/26392939718
20:29 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @vtivti: Mojolicious::Plugin::TtRenderer now supports inline templates http://bit.ly/ac00px #Mojolicious #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/26392979438
20:40 marcus_ hai
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20:50 sri moo
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21:11 sri marcus: what do you think about live analytics?
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23:17 alnewkirk sri, did you ever send me that llink for dancer and couchdb
23:17 sri alnewkirk: what?
23:18 alnewkirk ealier we were talking about you said check out couchdb
23:18 alnewkirk i've been wanting to play with one
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23:18 sri sure, but what link?
23:19 alnewkirk i wasnt sure if you sent one or not
23:19 alnewkirk i stepped away from the computer earilirt
23:19 alnewkirk earlier
23:20 sri surely wasn't me
23:23 alnewkirk hmmm
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