Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2010-12-17

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Time Nick Message
00:14 und3f is now known as und3f[A]
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00:27 GitHub108 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 449ebe6 (3 files in 2 dirs): css cleanup - http://bit.ly/g8OKNy
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00:30 GitHub185 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * d7f702a (1 files in 1 dirs): added recipe - http://bit.ly/ibcx8B
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00:34 GitHub143 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * c443fdd (1 files in 1 dirs): improved recipe - http://bit.ly/fNP7on
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00:38 Akron sri: Is there a reason, the css and js links in the exception template are relative?
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00:39 GitHub151 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 229c79d (3 files in 2 dirs): cleanup - http://bit.ly/fOA5Ky
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00:41 Akron sri++
00:43 Akron Oh ... my mistake.
00:51 perlrocks Twitter: "Btw. this link on the #mojolicious welcome page will now use the built in pod browser if available. ;) http://twitpic.com/3gegpk/full #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/15569736150556672
00:53 Akron sri: I think, the 404 page is a little bit too html 5 for real usage. It does'nt work in FF 3.6.
00:55 sri Akron: it's only for development mode
00:56 sri and no web developer with self esteem would use a legacy browser
00:57 Akron It's the recent stable version of a "real" browser. And regarding webdesign - of course, I refer to it.
00:58 sri firefox simply sucks
00:58 Akron sri: Maybe I have no self esteem ...
00:58 sri get firefox 4
00:58 sri it's in beta like forever
00:59 Akron FF 3.6 is good for Web design.
00:59 sri no it is not
00:59 Akron It is. It's the real world. I don't want to create things, nobody else can see. For everything else I use Chrome.
00:59 sri developer machine != real world
01:00 Akron Regarding design, I don't think that's true.
01:01 sri you have to test in multiple browsers anyway
01:01 Akron Of course.
01:01 sri targeting ff3.6 with developer features is pointless
01:01 sri you can just use chrome for the real work
01:03 Akron As I said - I don't think that's really user friendly for people, who have to deal with wd. For all JS stuff they have to primarily test it with real world browsers. The same is true for css.
01:03 sri umm
01:03 Akron And thus - it's my development system.
01:04 sri tomorrow someone will pop up and demand ie6 compatibility
01:04 sri if you're too lazy to install a proper browser you just shouldn't use mojolicious
01:05 Akron That's not a real world browser by means of a real browser.
01:05 sri who cares?
01:05 sri we are talking developer machines
01:05 Akron I use Chrome.
01:05 Akron But not for developing.
01:05 sri you need every available browser installed anyway
01:06 sri otherwise again... you should not be here
01:07 Akron I have loads of browsers (allthough not the latest versions of all) to test - but when dealing with WD I prefer FF. It's a good starting point for real world apps. It's no big deal to port it to other systems then.
01:09 Akron But - I can live with the 404 page. I just wanted to point it out, that it may not be true, that all developers prefer the latest browsers for initial development.
01:11 sri i'd rather optimize for good developers
01:11 Akron Thanks ...
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01:13 sri i thought we were talking about hypothetical bad programmers?
01:13 sri hmm
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01:19 Akron sri: Sorry - wrong disconnect. Programmer ne Web developer.
01:20 Akron But ... well - you are right, that a 404 is a more programmer related thing.
01:30 Akron sri: Okay, nevermind. Have to go now. Good night!
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01:54 MojoGuest627 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (107 hits)
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02:55 crab good morning
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06:16 crab ah, boogie-woogie is neat.
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06:44 marcus simply sucks, or sucks simply?
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06:58 marcus world lens is so amazin
07:02 crab are you reading about it, or using it?
07:08 marcus watched the video
07:09 marcus would love to have something like that for russian
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07:31 Christian morning
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07:49 MojoGuest564 From: http://blog.kraih.com/perl-is-ready-for-html5 (6 hits)
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08:14 MojoGuest478 From: http://blog.kraih.com/ (11 hits)
08:27 Christian is there a mistake in this wiki? https://github.com/kraih/moj​o/wiki/Working-with-helpers
08:30 Christian exception: Can't locate object method "plugin" via "mojotesting::Cities"
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08:32 yko your package name doesn't match file name or so
08:33 yko wait.. on which object you call ->plugin method?
08:34 yko what is mojotesting::Cities? controller? plugin? anyway, plugin is a method of application
08:35 Christian mojotesting::Cities is controller
08:35 yko so why you call ->plugin on controller? you should call it on application
08:35 yko if you have full Mojolicious app, than right place to do it - sub startup {}
08:36 Christian ok mom
08:37 Christian Plugin "mojotesting::Helpers" missing, maybe you need to install it?
08:37 Christian i'm confused
08:38 yko okay, you call $app->plugin('mojotesting::Helpers'), right?
08:38 Christian jes
08:38 Christian yes
08:39 Christian not app
08:39 Christian $self->plugin('mojotesting::Helpers');
08:39 yko right, $self is an Mojolicious application
08:39 yko i try to use '$app' or '$self' for application and '$c' for controller
08:39 Christian ok
08:39 yko do you have 'mojotesting/Helpers.pm' and does it have 'package mojotesting::Helpers;' ?
08:41 Christian lib/mojotesting/Helpers.pm and it have the package mojotesting::Helpers;
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08:44 yko ha
08:44 yko seems that wiki lies, but need to check it
08:44 Christian :)
08:45 Christian I thought so
08:47 sri morning
08:47 Christian morning
08:55 yko lol...
09:02 yko sri... can ve change this http://bit.ly/flYH1r  to /^[A-Z]+|::/ ?
09:02 yko sometimes users naming their apps with lowercase (i often do so also ...)
09:02 sri yko: sure if we have a test
09:03 yko ok
09:04 Christian yko, do you found the mistake?
09:04 yko yes.
09:04 yko but looking on the problem from different angles problem is in your application or in mojolicious itself :D
09:04 yko untill i write test we will consider that problem is in your application ;p
09:05 yko theres quick workarround for you:
09:05 und3f[A] is now known as und3f
09:06 crab sri: can i write a POST bridge? (i.e. all POSTs go through a callback)
09:06 yko Christian: sub startup {  push @{$self->plugins->namespaces}, __PACKAGE__;  $self->plugin('plugin'); }
09:09 Christian hmm the same mistake: Plugin "plugin" missing, maybe you need to install it?
09:10 yko damn, than just install that plugin!!! ;)
09:10 Christian :)
09:11 Christian i would
09:11 yko wiki doesn't lies. if you named your aplpication starting from uppercase letter it should be ok
09:11 yko ugh
09:13 Christian hmm
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09:14 sri yea, lower case module names are bad style
09:15 yko sri: type 'mojo generate app'
09:15 yko :p
09:15 yko oops
09:15 yko sorry :D
09:16 yko i always thought that defalut app has lowercase style :(
09:16 yko my fault
09:16 sri of course not
09:17 sri lower case is reserved for pragmas, no idea why people still use it for apps
09:18 sri i actually hate the idea of encouraging bad style
09:18 crab or do i have to use a hook for it?
09:19 Christian ok my fault is that i used lowercase?
09:19 sri yes
09:19 yko Christian: looks like that
09:20 sri apps are normal modules, which by convention means upper case first char
09:20 yko from one hand not loading plugin named from lowercase is a bad thing. from other hand supporting wrong-style is a good way to became IE-like :S
09:20 * sri nods
09:21 Christian ok i shcould gerenrate apps like: generate app Myapp and not gernerate myapp
09:21 sri ok, i'll just prevent lower case apps
09:21 yko i wont write tests for that case. but maybe insert 'die if ref($self) !~ /^[A-Z]/' in M9s::new ? :D
09:21 yko ye!
09:22 sri no, in the generator
09:23 yko it's enough, ye. if you build your app by yourself in wrong way it's really your problem
09:25 yko i didn't wrote plugins for years, so have no reason to finish my mojo generate plugin :(
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09:28 GitHub4 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 1380033 (1 files in 1 dirs): prevent bad apps - http://bit.ly/eVMcip
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09:28 yko :))
09:29 yko now we can not name out app like 'A' :)
09:30 yko but thanks for that fix, i tired renaming my wrong-named apps :(
09:30 sri shame on you?
09:31 yko sure
09:31 yko but with that fix ill have less shame in future on me
09:31 yko mojolicious makes me shameless!
09:31 sri :O
09:31 yko :DD
09:34 crab i should use another after_static_dispatch hook, i guess. but how to return a 403 response and abort processing of the request?
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09:43 yko crab: try that https://gist.github.com/744716
09:45 yko just replace 'GET" with method you want to override
09:47 crab so if i call $self->render(status => 403, ...) from the hook, it'll just work? fine.
09:47 yko you should try first :)
09:47 crab (i'm implementing an anti-csrf double-submit cookie)
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09:51 yko crab: best way to test it just 'script/yourapp get /' first
09:52 yko unfortunately there's no way to test other method from command line yet
09:52 crab yeah
09:53 crab i think a csrf cookie should be a built-in. but anyway, i'll make it a plugin.
09:53 yko there should be --method option for 'get' command or separate command to test everything
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10:04 MojoGuest681 hello
10:04 MojoGuest681 январь?
10:04 yko Январь!
10:05 MojoGuest681 ЯНВАРЬ!
10:05 MojoGuest681 is now known as google
10:05 google /me watching you
10:06 google was kicked by yko: Kick da google!
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10:06 yko I always wanted to do that
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10:59 sri heh
10:59 sri you're mean
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11:05 * yko loves google translate
11:05 yko i actually understand meaning of 'mean' word, but gt translates it into something like 'you are so ordinary/second-rate'
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11:51 sri Oo
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12:03 yko Last funny translation that rolls over internet: Allah is great! =>  The Allah is a bicycle!
12:07 polvo eh?
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12:07 GitHub117 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 6b6661d (2 files in 2 dirs): be less semantic - http://bit.ly/dZiswS
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12:08 yko Aargh! Mojo::DOM doesn't match right xml tags like <syn:Ident>
12:09 yko instead of $dom->at('syn:ident') should be used $dom->at('syn\:ident') - last one works :)
12:09 sri nope, you are just misunderstanding xml
12:09 sri thats a namespace, not a tag
12:10 yko hmm. but how then i can match such tag with 'at'?
12:10 sri you can't
12:10 yko ok. ill use at('syn\:ident') ;P
12:11 sri thats untested behavior
12:11 yko i know, ye :(
12:11 sri you might depend on a bug
12:11 yko -_-
12:11 und3f sri, so support of non HTML5 browser is not so bad idea, right? :P
12:11 yko but there's no way to get such tag by 'at'/'find' then ?
12:12 sri properly not
12:12 sri you find the actual tag and check ->namespace in the callback
12:13 sri thats better than how css3 selectors handle namespaces by spec
12:13 yko but such tag can not be found with at('syn') also
12:13 sri in proper css3 you alias the namespace and use that alias in selectors
12:13 sri yko: read the specs please
12:13 yko ok
12:14 sri if you want to implement namespac selecors according to spec feel free
12:14 sri *+e
12:14 crab und3f: (but that change doesn't really help on ff3)
12:14 und3f crab, helps
12:14 und3f crab, now it is displaying correctly
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12:15 yko sri: you told that i can find the actual tag and check ->namespace in the callback
12:15 crab really? not for me. oh well.
12:15 sri und3f: i don't care about ff3, but there is no value in semantic tags atm
12:15 yko but i can not find actual tag, only with something like at('*') which means grep all tags
12:15 sri soon ff4 will be released and all browsers have auto update
12:15 sri which means we can finally use all of html5
12:16 yko but ok, ill read spec or shut up :D
12:16 moritz ... in about 6 years
12:16 sri yko: of course you can find the actual tag
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12:16 sri yko: foo:bar is just a tag with a namespace alias
12:16 und3f And than html5 will be closed because critical security issue...
12:16 und3f :P
12:17 sri yko: so you at('bar')
12:18 sri "foo:" just refers to a real namespace
12:18 sri but is not part of the tag
12:19 sri xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
12:19 sri http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom is the namespace
12:19 sri aliased to atom:
12:22 yko sri: https://gist.github.com/744854
12:22 sri proper css3 namespace support in Mojo::DOM would look like $dom->at('atom|foo', atom => "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom");
12:22 sri because you are required to alias
12:22 yko a simple test. Mojo::DOM places tag with namespace in tagname at the moment. as far as i udnerstand
12:22 sri yko: are you listening?
12:23 sri syn: is the namespace alias, not a tag
12:23 yko moment
12:23 crab yko: you want at('Identifier') because that's the tag name, not syn
12:23 * yko is a stupid one
12:23 yko surry
12:23 sri i'm tired, please read up on the specs
12:23 yko s/u/o/
12:24 yko ok.
12:24 sri namespaces are not very nice
12:24 sri see my example above for a proper implementation
12:24 sri $dom->at('atom|foo', atom => "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom");
12:24 yko i'm really sorry. i just misunderstood xml. yes
12:25 sri everybody misunderstands xml namespaces at first :)
12:25 yko :(
12:25 yko btw... that 'namespace\:tagname' works :) it can be a feature :)
12:26 yko ..and a bug at the moment
12:26 yko thanks
12:26 sri romatically mojolicious image time?
12:27 yko http://korshak.name/ra/oo.jpg
12:27 sri :D
12:29 sri maybe i should write about namespaces in Mojo::DOM
12:29 sri but i'm afraid it might read like a rant :S
12:35 sri yko: after reading the specs you'll prolly unertsand why i'd rather not touch namespaces :)
12:36 yko :)
12:36 yko i don't insist on implementing namespaces actually.
12:37 sri (for those interested http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/)
12:37 yko i just thought that there's little bug in DOM
12:37 yko bookmarked
12:37 crab is there some mojo function that will format HTTP dates correctly for me?
12:37 sri Mojo::Date
12:41 crab excellent.
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12:43 perlrocks Twitter: "I've relaxed the #html5 requirements for #mojolicious a bit, newer features will be used in the future though. http://bit.ly/fGcXUz #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/15748844037865472
12:43 perlrocks Twitter: "RT @kraih: I've relaxed the #html5 requirements for #mojolicious a bit, newer features will be used in the future though. http://bit.ly/ ..." --j3nnn1 http://twitter.com/j3nnn1/status/15749016578957312
12:45 crab what is the point of re-tweeting something?
12:46 sri whats the point of social networking?
12:48 sri reminds me that i really need to blog again :S
12:49 crab well, i didn't mean it in a larger sense.
12:49 sri you show your followers twets you like they might have missed
12:49 crab but is j3nnn1 (whoever that is) just saying "this is interesting"?
12:50 sri yea
12:50 crab ah
12:50 sri j3nnn1 is prolly a bot though
12:51 crab heh, twitter.com/crab is some guy also in new delhi, india
12:52 sri you're in new delhi?
12:52 crab yes
12:53 sri mmm curry
12:54 * sri really needs indian food again
12:54 crab my daughter made curry for lunch today
12:54 crab though of course what you think of as curry is probably not what i'm thinking of as curry
12:55 crab the few "indian" restaurants that i visited in germany were rather odd
12:55 sri most germans wouldn't survive real indian food i guess :)
12:59 * sri really loves how chrome just magically updates itself automatically
13:00 sri thats something mozilla should have invented years ago
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13:30 sri http://www.456bereastreet.com/archiv​e/200601/css_3_selectors_explained/ # for those that want to learn more about css3 selectors
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13:30 MojoGuest129 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (108 hits)
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13:31 sri almost everything described works in Mojo::DOM
13:31 crab hmm, XMPP over websocket. how very interesting.
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13:32 MojoGuest66 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (109 hits)
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13:32 sri i predict in a few years we will send everything over websockets
13:33 sri tcp always needed message framing
13:34 sri now we get it with browser integration
13:35 DaTa whoa, let's implement an http-client over websockets
13:35 sri why use a legacy protocol like http?
13:36 DaTa </ironic>
13:36 sri i know :)
13:36 sri but the point stands
13:36 sri google will push websockets for page assets like images/css/js
13:37 sri since it is way cheaper and faster than http
13:37 sri the latest websocket framing is very similar to their SPDY protocol from their "make the web faster" campaign
13:39 sri in the future http will mostly be used to get a "manifest" file with a list of assets to request via websocket
13:40 sri it's a good base for offline apps
13:40 sri once loaded they persist client side and sync via websocket from time to time
13:41 sri the way google changed the websocket protocol makes it quite obvious what they are planning
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13:57 sri yko: you can now use app->hook(...) instead of app->plugins->...
13:57 sri (saw your gist)
13:59 yko фр
13:59 yko ah. shortcuts became nicely each day :)
13:59 yko thank you
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14:06 crab sri: what flavour of websockets is currently usable? or did you say that it would be broken soon too?
14:06 sri none is usable
14:06 crab (until now i didn't look at/understand websockets, but i had a spare half-hour so i started reading about them)
14:06 sri they will break any day now
14:07 sri firefox and opera even disabled websockets
14:08 crab so the protocol that clients support is being disabled because of "security problems" and the protocol that is more secure is not supported by anyone?
14:08 sri there is no secure alternative yet
14:08 sri still being designed
14:09 sri the security risk is more of a hoax, to prevent people from adopting the current version though
14:09 crab yeah, i gathered. sucks.
14:09 crab but if i start reading now, i can be ready when things get fixed :)
14:10 sri sure, apis won't change that much
14:10 sri we migth have to switch from path based dispatching to protocol names, but thats it
14:13 crab hmm. do i understand correctly that, once you connect to a ws "endpoint" in javascript, you just register an onmessage handler and fetch the data and do whatever you want? that's basically it?
14:14 crab damn, that's slick. i can already see plenty of things i'd like to use that for.
14:14 Akron sri: Thanks for relaxing HTML5 - although now you are encouraging bad developers! :)
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14:21 yko crab: same thing for me
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14:26 crab yko: now i can read and understand some of these websocket examples from xantus
14:34 sri Akron: yea, i'm a little worried about that, but there is no value in being semantic atm
14:35 und3f[A] is now known as und3f
14:37 sri Akron: what really made the difference was the perldoc browser, people might want to share it with bad programmers ;p
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14:47 Akron sri: me like it! Me feels encouraged! :P
14:47 sri -.-
14:55 crab so this "security problem" is approximately == "old software is old"?
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15:07 sri kinda, there is a real security problem, but it is an http problem, not websocket specific
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16:08 Christian cu all
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17:37 MojoGuest379 .
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18:07 moritz I have lines like this in my log:
18:07 moritz Argument "13M-0" isn't numeric in subtraction (-) at /home/moritz/perl5//perls/perl-5.12.2/​lib/site_perl/5.12.2/Mojo/Exception.pm line 186, <GEN1568> line 362.
18:07 moritz any idea what's up (or wrong)?
18:08 sri not the slightest, i'm going to need a real test case to investigate it
18:09 * moritz needs a stack trace to investigate :-)
18:12 moritz hm, now I can't reproduce it
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18:52 su-bzero ;0
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20:12 rhaen moritz: right, if your code don't work just add a my $debug = 1; somewhere in the head, it works!
20:12 moritz rhaen: it seems that when I observe something weird, killing the daemon and restarting helps quite often
20:15 sri moritz: ah, the reloader is not foolproof
20:16 sri perl leaks all kinds of stuff
20:19 moritz not surprising, actually :-)
20:21 sri sadly the alternatives are not much better
20:22 sri one would be to kill the whole server, closing the sockets and causing actual downtime
20:22 sri the other unix specific
20:25 rhaen well, just run 2 mojo daemons, balance between them. You can turn off one and fix the other :) Simple
20:25 rhaen That's admin stuff, I know that!
20:25 rhaen just load mod_proxy_balancer
20:26 rhaen and then, send sri a testcase - he'll fix everything
20:26 sri right, adding a random factor will totally make it better :)
20:26 rhaen In the meantime - stick with the power of a finee webserver :)
20:26 sri "why do i get a 500 every second request"
20:27 rhaen sri, you can disable it inside the config (on the fly) using a fine web gui
20:27 rhaen Apache rocks!
20:27 sri we are talking development server here
20:27 rhaen yeah, I know :)
20:27 sri i for one would like to see actual errors
20:28 rhaen right.
20:28 rhaen I am a maintainer of the NetBSD pkg system
20:29 rhaen I am updating some Perl modules there - right now
20:29 rhaen There are so much dependencies :(
20:29 rhaen Mojo could actually fix alot issues.
20:29 rhaen Think I will add it to the repo once everything settled a bit
20:31 * yko was damaged by deprecated stuff
20:31 rhaen oh :(
20:31 yko ah, it's ok
20:31 rhaen food or drinks?
20:31 * sri repairs yko
20:31 yko rhaen: mojolicious deprecated stuff :)
20:32 yko some templates became wrong after last update
20:32 sri a deprecation period ended recently
20:32 rhaen Did you use the tag helpers?
20:33 yko rhaen : some tag helpers, some code blocks...
20:33 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/1b​974448e9efb2b14d895b995e6bade567b445fa # lazy people will get bitten by this
20:33 yko there was nice idea to write a tests for templates to compile them and check syntax
20:33 yko sri, i'm not complain
20:34 yko it's ok, i just remind all others to check their code before update
20:34 sri i know, but it gives the impression the api changes randomly
20:34 sri not everyone knows the context
20:34 yko oh... sorry -_-
20:35 yko api does not changes randomly, guys
20:35 sri :)
20:35 yko it changes only when sri decided to change api ;P
20:35 sri that stuff was deprecated about half a year ;p
20:35 yko i don't mind ;)
20:36 yko actually it's good to break something before 1.0-stable
20:36 yko i hope soooo much we wont have much api changes after 1.0.....
20:37 sri i have no big plans
20:37 marcus Sri promised.
20:37 marcus :)
20:37 sri rather happy with the api
20:37 yko i'm happy with Mojo::Client
20:37 marcus If you're happy and you know it clap your hands.
20:38 marcus Sri: talked to any publishers?
20:38 yko :)
20:38 sri marcus: nope
20:38 marcus I think oreilly should publish a mojolicous book.
20:38 yko :D
20:38 yko at least one.
20:38 sri oreilly still does perl?
20:39 marcus If it's cool, why not?
20:39 marcus They want to be trendy :)
20:39 rhaen the wiki grows nicely
20:39 yko Application name has to be a well formed Perl module name. ^^
20:42 rhaen marcus: everyone talks about your cool London.pm presentation - can you send me a link to the slide please
20:42 rhaen marcus: that way I can include it on the wiki
20:42 rhaen :)
20:43 rhaen marcus: or is it the "Mojo as a HTTP client" thing?
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20:45 yko ye, {%>Sometext<%} dowsn't work anymore :)
20:45 sri thank god for that
20:45 yko actually i'm glad because it was ugly a bit
20:46 sri quite an understatement
20:50 GabrielVieira left #mojo
20:54 marcus I forgot to publish my slides. Will do it tomorrow.
20:54 marcus They include video, not sure what is the best way.
20:57 rhaen oh. ok. Hm, why not "film" the slides by making screenshots with iPhoto
20:57 rhaen and then put in the video sequences with iMovie
20:57 rhaen then upload everything as one movie to vimeo.com
20:58 rhaen I can help you with that, once you make the slides and the videos accessible somewhere
20:58 rhaen We (the perlies) need more stuff on the different plattforms and you *points*
20:58 rhaen did an awesome job, stand up to be rewarded!
20:59 rhaen marcus: *points* you are a developer on duty!
20:59 rhaen omg, I feel like a wiki ambush person
21:00 rhaen Let me check the ML if I can annoy more people :)
21:14 rhaen ah!
21:58 kaare left #mojo
22:05 und3f[A] is now known as und3f
22:08 marty MOJOLICIOUS ROCKS!!!!
22:09 marty sorry, I had a sudden outburst of exuberance.
22:09 marty *back to work
22:36 daviddelikat left #mojo
22:41 sri :)
23:04 tempire_ left #mojo
23:13 Akron joined #mojo
23:47 und3f is now known as und3f[A]

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