Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-01-09

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00:51 stephan48 when i define a method rpld_runcmd_timeout() in my liteapp file and then reference it via $self->rpld_runcmd_timeout(args) and then getting: Can't locate object method "rpld_runcmd_timeout" via "Mojolicious::Controller" at myapp.pl line 32
00:51 stephan48 what could be wrong?
00:51 stephan48 http://abc123.pastebin.com/NLXNSMWd the code
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02:28 MojoGuest545 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (142 hits)
02:29 MojoGuest545 So is this connecting directly to the IRCd or is it proxied by an intermediate server?
02:30 MojoGuest545 /me wonders if this channel isn't at all related to the demo that brought him here...
02:30 MojoGuest545 /me also notes the lack of functioning actions :P
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02:30 MojoGuest836 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (143 hits)
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02:31 stephan48 i was about to anser you....
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02:31 MojoGuest493 From: http://dev.xantus.org/ (39 hits)
02:31 stephan48 stay here!
02:31 stephan48 are you the same as the prev 2?
02:31 MojoGuest493 Yes, my apologies, testing it different browsers to see support/behavior.
02:31 stephan48 ;)
02:32 stephan48 i think the mojo app connects to the ircd
02:32 MojoGuest493 http://dev.xantus.org/ if you're curious
02:32 stephan48 [~mojo@ps22244.dreamhost.com] <- because you appear to us as connecting directly from server
02:32 stephan48 oh i know it :)
02:33 MojoGuest493 I've been curious about this whole websocket thing for a while, the possibilities for webapps with access to pure tcp/udp would be endless. Wondering just how close websockets bring it.
02:33 stephan48 this is the mojo support channel and dammit its 03:33(gmt+1)... i think most people here sleep(or are at work)
02:33 stephan48 :)
02:34 stephan48 sry i dont know much of it, so good night :)
02:34 MojoGuest493 ah, would have been nice for this demo to link elsewhere :P
02:34 MojoGuest493 night, sorry to bother you :)
02:34 stephan48 np, why?
02:34 stephan48 in a other channel there would be not so many people probably :)
02:35 MojoGuest493 Yeah, and not so much random interruption here from people like me :P
02:37 MojoGuest493 Mojo looks curious, I'll run through the concepts later. But I fear perl doesn't have much spot in my workflow these years. Language preferences change over time :)
02:37 MojoGuest493 Anyways night!
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05:47 perlrocks Twitter: "Trying to decide between #Sinatra (#Ruby) http://bit.ly/4CP7dA or #Mojolicious (#Perl) http://bit.ly/duRPpL for a project.  Decision fail." --dhedlund http://twitter.com/dhedlun​d/status/23979032718614529
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08:16 * sri yawns
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08:41 perlrocks Twitter: "Thanks everyone for the great #mojolicious reviews! :) http://t.co/zeMQ9dv #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/24022911178252288
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08:44 MojoGuest683 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (144 hits)
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08:47 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious - Web framework for Perl http://www.findbestopensour​ce.com/product/mojolicious  #web-framework" --bestopensource http://twitter.com/bestopenso​urce/status/24024416459427840
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09:47 * sri wonders how to make mojolicious more popular in the uk
09:51 marcus You Start attending london.pm meetings...
09:51 marcus :)
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09:51 marcus I think shadowcat has a quite strong influence on the uk perl scene.
09:54 sri yes, mojolicio.us analytics results confirm that
09:54 sri page views are very well distributed all around the world, just uk is kind of an exception
09:54 purl Sorry, I don't know views's email address.
09:54 * sri pats purl
09:54 * purl stabs
09:55 sri :o
09:55 marcus Mark even arranged lpw.
09:55 marcus Even tho they are located in northwest england.
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11:37 stephan48 does anyone got a hint for my error from last night?
11:42 dotan stephan48: method undefined in the action?
11:48 dotan stephan48: very simple, you didn't define a method, you defined a sub in main...
11:50 dotan stephan48: If instead of $self->thingie() you call thingie() in your action, it'll work.
11:57 stephan48 jap but i will need a $self?
11:57 stephan48 so thingie($self)?
11:58 dotan I think the prefered way to add methods to your controller is to use helper
11:59 dotan stephan48: your way will work, of course.
12:00 dotan http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojolicious#helper
12:01 dotan To make that work in Lite, use app instead of $app (app() is a function exported by Lite that returns the Mojolicious::Lite App)
12:01 stephan48 ye
12:03 dotan stephan48: I annotated your pastie: http://abc123.pastebin.com/jWWanBRs
12:04 yko stephan48: looks like you have too much logic in your templates
12:08 stephan48 so i rather should export it into helper?
12:10 yko well, keeping code in controller and html in templates is a good practice
12:11 yko for sure it's your choice, but i rather preform all preparations in controller and let templates just render ready data
12:12 stephan48 ye, i have the code in navi and need it for layout... so i would have duplicate code in controllers/actions then?
12:15 yko i'd preffer put data preparation into a bridge (for example)
12:16 stephan48 k, and in a lite app? :)
12:16 yko why not to build arrayref that contains only data needed by template and then just render that data in template
12:17 yko stephan48: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojolicious/Lite#Under
12:17 stephan48 ahm
12:18 yko that code in under will be executed before rendering pages following 'under'
12:19 yko anyway, it's you choice. but don't you think that keeping code with code and html with html is a good idea?
12:19 stephan48 i could move the first line to bridge/under( http://abc123.pastebin.com/k13UPFsa ) but how would i render propably rekursiv data in a template then when moving it out of there? :)
12:19 stephan48 ye
12:20 sri oh my, please indent!
12:20 yko :)
12:20 stephan48 we need something like mojotidy ;)
12:21 stephan48 but didnt indent? :) just the 2-3 line at top arent properly idented
12:21 sri all the % are not indented
12:21 yko as i told before, it's your choice. sometimes you really need logic in templates
12:21 stephan48 intend the %?
12:21 sri yes, indent the % and %=
12:21 stephan48 ye it looks ugly here but tbh i dont see any alternative ways...
12:23 sri there can be any number of whitespace characters before the %
12:23 sri it does not have to be the first char on a line
12:24 sri stephan48: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/​lib/Mojolicious/Plugin/PodRenderer.pm#L230
12:24 sri there's an example
12:25 stephan48 better? http://abc123.pastebin.com/x4KCXxFB
12:26 sri a lot, now you just need to switch from 8 whitespace to 4
12:26 sri :)
12:26 stephan48 :)
12:28 dotan stephan48: I kinda liked how all the % characters were at the begining of the line :P - first time I've seen that, and it does make it clear just how much code you've got in your template.
12:28 stephan48 :)
12:28 dotan (like yko pointed out)
12:30 sri i agree too with yko btw regarding less code in templates is better
12:30 stephan48 ye
12:30 sri unindented perl lines just make my eyes hurt :S
12:30 stephan48 mine too but i inteded them afer the %
12:33 stephan48 yap less code in templates is always better, but tbh... how would you display nested lists in f.e. a bridge? there must always be logic to render it in a template or?
12:39 sri http://pastie.org/1442399 # any thoughts about this template syntax?
12:39 yko emmm...
12:40 marty moin
12:40 yko mrnng
12:40 sri moin
12:41 yko sri: {{ }} stands for what? same as {% %} ?
12:41 sri {{ is <%=
12:41 sri {% is <%
12:41 yko ah
12:41 marty sri: The syntax looks ok.  I kinda like the {% visually only because it differentiates itself from the < in html.
12:41 marty But I'm kinda partial to ep these days.  :)
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12:42 sri marty: yea, thats exactly why i'm considering it
12:42 marty I think if it was an option I would probably use it
12:42 sri the disadvantage is of course that it wouldn't allow perl lines
12:42 marty Oooooo
12:42 yko ommm. i get it. you just have not right syntax highlight :)
12:43 marty yko:  What?  I've got white and black, what else do I need.  wakka wakka wakka
12:44 sri when i see apps without indented perl lines it makes my heart bleed :(
12:44 marty sri: Not allowing perl lines, that would be a bummer.
12:44 sri then i start wondering if mustache syntax would have been better
12:46 marty I really like the freedom of ep.   You just have to use stash a lot and keep the logic out of the templates (good idea anyway) but those inline perl snippets are nice in those rare situations.
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12:46 sri i would never remove the current ep
12:46 marty \o/
12:47 sri just maybe there's a better option for the mainstream
12:47 marty agreed
12:47 sri then again, maybe i just need to write more about indented perl lines
12:48 yko sri: there was time when % should be at start of line, so people just get used to it
12:48 sri yko: ye :/
12:49 yko if you highlight that % is no more tied to left side of screen, people would start use it :)
12:50 sri ooh...there is another problem with the mustache syntax :S
12:50 yko ye $x->{$y->{foo}} :)
12:50 sri actually i meant whitespace trimming ;p
12:51 sri <%= $lalala =%>
12:51 yko and that thing too
12:51 yko btw, whitespace trimming is a great stuff
12:52 yko so you are considering mustache syntax because of better accent on perl code inside of html?
12:53 * sri nods
12:53 yko or to make people indent their code?
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12:53 sri because it works ok without highlighting and encourages good formatting
12:54 sri atm i'm just loud thinking, not really considering it
12:54 yko hmm. maybe it has sense then
12:55 yko but actually it may bring some problems with native perl syntax (as i mentioned before)
12:56 yko and i think whole mojolicious community used to see ep syntax in examples
12:56 sri good arguments too
12:56 yko as far as i know you, once designed new syntax you'll start to hardly promote it and rewrite in it most examples :)
12:59 sri not the best time for such experiments, guess i should just concentrate on the mongodb plugin :)
13:01 crab hi.
13:03 * sri waves
13:04 crab it would be nice to be able to do templating the same way on client and server, but i'm not about to use node.js to be able to do so.
13:05 crab (the above not really apropos of anything, just mustache reminded me)
13:10 marcus hai chansen
13:10 marty Hi crab
13:12 marcus sri MON GO DB
13:13 yko looks like encryption: Monday, go double beer
13:13 sri DOUBLE BEER!
13:15 dotan MONGO! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28khv-BydeY
13:18 stephan48 would a helper and partial templates be a sane replacement for this? http://abc123.pastebin.com/nbCV0B8p
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13:28 yko stephan48: https://gist.github.com/771681
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13:29 stephan48 but wouldnt i need a same sub in template then to print out the thing recursive?
13:30 yko stephan48: you are right, my example is just a qick cut of your code, you may need a block to render recursive, as you did it before
13:31 stephan48 so? we have again tons of code in the template..
13:31 yko aaargh
13:31 stephan48 and end in traversing the array/data twice? or am i missing something?
13:32 stephan48 so either i am bit blind or your way just incrases time needed for processing...
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13:47 yko stephan48:  https://gist.github.com/771681 that what i actually mean
13:48 stephan48 and differs how much from my solution? :)
13:48 stephan48 you missed some stuff at beginning i think..
13:49 yko well, not so much i agree
13:49 stephan48 mostly you fetch the data in controller but rekursive displaying is still in tmpl
13:51 yko ok, ok, i give up. finaly it's your templates ;)
13:51 stephan48 na if you have nice ideas no problem :)
13:51 stephan48 i consider it ugly too but i dont see much nicer alternatives :)
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14:01 marty Interesting.   I've never use '$block = begin...'  Is there a perldoc on that?  (I searched and could not fine it)
14:01 sri multiple places actually
14:02 marty all I can find is BEGIN and END blocks
14:02 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldo​c?Mojolicious/Lite#Blocks
14:02 sri oh, it's mojolicious specific
14:02 marty Ahhh, thank you sri
14:03 sri would be cool if perl allowed it :)
14:03 marty DOH!  No wonder.  I thought it was a Perl built in.   :(
14:03 sri if $i > 0 begin
14:03 marty Yes it would.  I saw that example and said WOW!  I can use that man!!!
14:03 sri print $i;
14:03 sri end
14:03 sri that would be awesome
14:05 sri sadly it is just part of the template system
14:06 * sri actually thought about designing a language on top of perl like coffeescript :)
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14:07 stephan48 :)
14:07 marty * is searching for coffeescript
14:08 stephan48 i will keep that template for now, just because i cant imagine something better for now :)
14:09 sri actually, my perfect language would just be a cleaned up version of Lua
14:10 sri with shorter keywords and slightly different scoping rules
14:12 stephan48 why lua?
14:13 sri it is the prettiest language i've ever seen
14:13 marty sri: coffeescript is pretty kewl.   I almost dont get scared looking at javascript when it looks like that.  :)
14:17 sri in a perfect world browsers would use lua instead of javascript
14:21 sri http://code.google.com/p/ie7-js/ # :o
14:23 marty sweet!
14:25 perlrocks Twitter: "Goals 2011 lots of little standing, let's have achieved little. Not to say that goal now, CGI:: Application, Catalyst, followed by product code can also be used, WAF s goal is to learn. With such things, Mojolicious began touching." (ja) --amari3 http://twitter.com/amari3/status/24109586550099968
14:26 sri hmm, there seems to be a lot of interest in quality perl screencasts
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15:03 sri http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/MSCHWERN/Tes​t-Simple-2.00_02/lib/Test/Builder2/Mouse.pm # O_O
15:15 marcus O_o
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15:43 perlrocks Twitter: "fun experiment yesterday with node.js and think + rack, node.js doesn't win by much. mojolicious + hypnotoad was a bit of a let-down" --openpyr http://twitter.com/openpyr​/status/24129173232549890
15:44 marty Blasphemy!
15:48 sri smells like req/s benchmark *yawn*
15:48 crab think+rack?
15:48 sri yea, he even spelled it wrong
15:49 crab what is he talking about?
15:49 sri thin i guess
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15:56 sri he basically compared a general purpose event loop with a web server with a web framework
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16:28 tempire sri: there was a vector graphics app for the mac you used a while back, something relatively new
16:28 tempire not opacity
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16:43 perlrocks Twitter: "Blogs written - http://bit.ly/i3MW5C - Mojolicious:: Lite and Data:: Model AJAX and jQuery I made in chat." (ja) --nqounet http://twitter.com/nqounet​/status/24144180225769472
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16:56 sri tempire: sketch
16:56 sri i've drawn everything for mojolicious with it
16:57 tempire you mentioned it was fairly buggy, didn't you?  or were those issues worked out by the quick dev response?
16:58 sri mostly fixed
16:58 sri it crashes from time to time though
16:58 sri still better than everything else on the mac
16:58 tempire I'm tired of inkscape's non-macness.
16:59 sri sketch goes quite well with pixelmator
16:59 sri it's also in the mac app store
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17:45 tempire sri: further comments on Plugin::SslAuth, Plugin::BasicAuth, & Plugin::ParamsAuth are welcome (implementation and/or coding practice & style).  Going to announce them on blogs.perl.org in the near future.
17:45 tempire http://search.cpan.org/~tempire/Mo​jolicious-Plugin-BasicAuth-0.032/l​ib/Mojolicious/Plugin/BasicAuth.pm
17:45 tempire eck
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17:46 tempire http://bit.ly/gjYZtd , http://bit.ly/hzveby , http://bit.ly/h9Hmn7
17:46 tempire or anyone else who wants to comment...
17:47 tempire I think I'll remove the alternate usage from basicauth.  There's no need for it.
17:50 tempire cleanup the example too
17:50 josh hmm does anybody know what i have to do to get a browser to progressively render my chunked output?
17:51 josh i thought i had it working but now it just waits until the final chunk before it displays anything
18:02 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious-Plugin-OAuth2 0.02 by Marcus Ramberg - http://frepan.org/~mramberg/Mo​jolicious-Plugin-OAuth2-0.02/" --cpan_new http://twitter.com/cpan_ne​w/status/24164001785061376
18:02 perlrocks Twitter: "@kraih node.js, mojolicious, thin+rack and thin+async_sinatra are contenders for building APIs on top of async reactors." --openpyr http://twitter.com/openpyr​/status/24164132177580032
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18:23 sri oh boy... it gets worse
18:24 sri he did about the worst benchmark i can imagine
18:36 perlrocks Twitter: "@openpyr Anyway, how did you manage to let mojolicious make async database queries?" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/24172635436879872
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18:45 sri pyr: that benchmark is totally broken
18:45 marcus hi pyr
18:45 pyr hey :)
18:45 * sri waves
18:45 pyr well for mojolicious i guess
18:45 pyr but here's my use case
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18:46 sri you just can't compare apples with oranges
18:46 pyr i have a few APIs in ruby
18:46 pyr and some in mojo
18:47 pyr my mojo ones aren't getting lots of stress
18:47 pyr i don't care about speed on those
18:48 pyr if you need mojolicious to be fast it falls in the same traps as passenger and unicorn deployments for ruby
18:48 sri wrong
18:48 pyr enlighten me
18:48 sri pyr: so you did in fact use DBI?
18:48 sri blocking the whole process until the response arrives?
18:49 pyr nope even without the SQL part
18:49 sri umm...
18:50 sri what are we talking about exactly?
18:50 pyr i did two tests, one with a simple answer, one with a sql query added
18:50 pyr the sql test has no meaning for mojo
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18:51 sri then my recommendation from twitter applies
18:51 sri use https://github.com/kraih/mojo/bl​ob/master/examples/microhttpd.pl
18:51 pyr you wouldn't deploy that, right ?
18:51 sri you allowed node.js too, which has far less features than thin+rack+async_sinatra
18:51 pyr i was only testing deployable solutions
18:52 sri if you can deploy plain node.js why not microhttpd.pl?
18:53 sri in fact microhttpd.pl is far more similar to node.js than thin+rack+async_sinatra
18:53 pyr ok
18:54 pyr well first i didn't know about it since you mentionned it
18:54 pyr yes, node.js is think+rack
18:54 sri no it is not
18:54 purl i already had it that way, sri.
18:54 marty hmm.  I notice in the bridged routes docs that /foo always returns undef.   Is there a way to have the first placeholder of the path match and fire a dispatch cycle?
18:54 sri node.js + connect would be similar
18:55 marty I'm trying to get things like /foo/bar/baz to fire three dispatch cycles
18:56 marty I tried using $r->bridge('') and $r->bridge('/') as the first first bridge, but no go.   :(
18:56 pyr sri: yeah ok i you want to be picky
18:56 sri pyr: anyway, the point i'm trying to make here is "features cost"
18:56 pyr sri: i get that
18:56 pyr sri: but you don't get mine
18:56 pyr sri: without microhttpd (which i didn't know of)
18:57 pyr if we can agree on the fact that there is some similarity between thin+rack+async_sinatra and hypnotoad+mojolicious
18:57 sri you're comparing a high level framework with something working on raw sockets
18:57 sri to put it bluntly, thats total bullshit
18:58 sri they similar in the same way that an apple is similar to a tractor if both are green :)
18:58 sri *+are
18:59 sri yko++ # for that
18:59 pyr i got your point
18:59 pyr you still don't get the point of the expirement i did
18:59 pyr i wasn't benchmarking anything
18:59 pyr but trying to evaluate the cost of features
18:59 marcus expirement. fraudian slip?
18:59 pyr :)
19:00 pyr when you go from thin+rack to thin+rack+async_sinatra you get a good idea of how much the framework costs
19:00 pyr i was expecting somewhat similar results from hypno+mojo than from the async_sinatra
19:01 pyr actually i was expecting better
19:02 sri sinatra once again has no features itself
19:03 sri and as soon as you add a database framework performance becomes moot anyway
19:04 pyr ok, next time i'll add async_rails to the loop then you be feeling prejudiced against
19:04 pyr :)
19:05 pyr i get your point about sinatra vs mojo, i just usually use mojo in a similar way than most use sinatra
19:05 sri micro benchmarks are simply useless
19:06 sri they lead to abominations like microhttpd.pl
19:06 pyr well they can help spot obvious flaws
19:06 sri obviously not
19:06 pyr especially when going the async way
19:07 sri what has async to do with performance?
19:08 pyr run a micro bench on your async app, if you get mad numbers you might be blocking. you don't seem to be happy with the word benchmark but you get my point.
19:08 sri wtf?
19:10 * sri better stops before he starts swearing
19:11 marcus async is hard, let's go shopping
19:11 marty \o/
19:11 marty I'll by the ice cream.  :)
19:11 sri \o/
19:11 marty buy even
19:11 perlrocks Twitter: "Async is hard, let's go shopping! #Mojolicious" --marcusramberg http://twitter.com/marcusramb​erg/status/24181560303423488
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19:14 sri for the record, we have not a single report about mojolicious being too slow for any real world scenario
19:15 sri it is therefore entirely unoptimized
19:18 pyr since i run only internal apps and webservices on it i have no problem
19:18 pyr and i wasn't doubting its ability to run on a web facing loaded app
19:18 sri the simple truth is that in the real world the framework is pretty much never the bottleneck
19:19 sri micro benchmarks are very misleading there
19:19 pyr and when it becomes you usually have money coming with it to just put more boxes
19:21 sri databases will always be the bottleneck
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19:31 sri btw. if your app becomes the next twitter you can just hire me to make mojolicious faster! :)
19:32 pyr well, i couldn't push mojo as the main framework
19:32 pyr for the web facing stack
19:32 pyr perl doesn't sell anymore
19:33 pyr sadly
19:33 sri you could sell node.js? Oo
19:33 pyr nope
19:33 pyr it's ruby
19:33 pyr the node.js test was for giggles
19:34 pyr i can't see why people would want to write javascript when they don't *have* to
19:34 sri thats true
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19:34 pyr coffee seems to ease the pain a bit
19:34 avkhozov joined #mojo
19:34 pyr cofeescript i mean
19:35 sri most here agree i think
19:35 pyr the hype around node.js is web developper discovering libevent
19:35 pyr developers i meant
19:37 pyr at least the framework scene is a bit more exciting than 4 years ago
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19:41 mxey libev, not libevent though
19:42 pyr speaking figuratively
19:44 mxey How hard would an HTTP proxy be with Mojo? I found it quite easy with Node.js.
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19:45 sri mxey: http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/MRAMBERG/Mojoliciou​s-Plugin-Proxy-0.2/lib/Mojolicious/Plugin/Proxy.pm
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19:45 jamesw heh
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19:47 mxey sri: Oh, nice.
19:48 mxey I will need to investigate further. I have a working implementation of a transparent HTTP proxy censoring based on the hostname, but I'd prefer a Perl solution.
19:50 sri marcus: btw. your pod is wrong, says METHODS instead of HELPERS
20:16 marty https://github.com/kraih/moj​o/wiki/Helpful-Code-Snippets
20:32 perlrocks Twitter: "mojolicious looks awesome" --areggiori http://twitter.com/areggior​i/status/24201947527516161
20:34 * sri doesn't like "->to(cb => sub {"
20:35 sri sadly i can't think of a better alternative :/
20:35 sri "->to(on => sub {" would be more in line
20:36 sri but "toon"? Oo
20:39 sri marty: like the idea btw. the wiki could use more little experiments like that
20:40 moritz do => sub { ... }  maybe ?
20:40 sri hmm, not bad
20:40 sri todo
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20:50 marty Thanks sri!  I spent the morning messing with routes and man, i love Mojolicous.  Thanks for writting such a kewl app!
20:50 marty sri++
20:50 sri :)
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21:58 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious-Plugin-BasicAuth 0.033 by Glen Hinkle - http://frepan.org/~tempire/Mojo​licious-Plugin-BasicAuth-0.033/" --cpan_new http://twitter.com/cpan_ne​w/status/24223553649909760
21:59 marcus mxey: I found it quite easy with mojo
21:59 mxey marcus: OK, thanks.
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22:46 perlrocks Twitter: "Hmmm, haven't done anything to perl(1) since late 2006.  Need to get my mojo back..." --quidity http://twitter.com/quidity​/status/24235487631769600
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23:57 diegok marcus: you'll update the synopsis to read o_auth2?

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