Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-01-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

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01:40 zamolxes_ hmm. http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/12​/websocket-protocol-vulnerability
02:27 tempire can one edit a blogs.perl.org post?
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02:33 mateu if one is running a websockets server on their own VPS in the cloud then do they have to worry about transparent/intercepting proxies?
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03:10 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious-Plugin-SslAuth 0.02 by Glen Hinkle - http://frepan.org/~tempire/Moj​olicious-Plugin-SslAuth-0.02/" --cpan_new http://twitter.com/cpan_ne​w/status/24664535222718465
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03:28 xantus marcus: cool
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05:00 perlrocks Twitter: "New toy .. Validation::Class - Centralized Input Validation For Any Application - http://goo.gl/VyPs7 #perl #mojolicious #dancer #catalyst" --alnewkirkassoc http://twitter.com/alnewkirka​ssoc/status/24692027505508354
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06:34 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious-Plugin-SslAuth-0.02: http://bit.ly/idBjTM" (ja) --1i_ http://twitter.com/1i_/status/24715784605409281
06:34 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious-Plugin-SslAuth-0.02: http://bit.ly/idBjTM" (ja) --1i_ http://twitter.com/1i_/status/24715784798343168
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08:01 Christian morning
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08:47 zipkid Hello
08:47 purl que tal, zipkid.
08:48 zipkid Not much purl.
08:53 crab hi.
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09:11 sri mateu: yes, it affects the client side
09:12 sri but it is a general http vulnerability, not just websockets
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10:28 * sri yawns
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10:42 crab sri: what are you up to?
10:43 marcus no good"!
10:47 sri crab: no good
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11:18 crab hm. i need some advice. i set out to write a mojolicious app that would serve as a "foundation" for my other projects.
11:19 crab the idea was that i would implement things like user authentication, "reset password", etc. which i need always in this app. then i'd pull it into some specific-project's repository, rename it and add whatever new features to it.
11:20 sri make those general purpose plugins
11:20 crab but now it turns out that if i do the rename, then i can't conveniently merge new changes from the upstream repository with git. it turns out that avoiding renames would be a good idea.
11:22 crab hm. i'm not sure i can turn them all into plugins.
11:23 crab maybe i can. maybe the rest can be in a "generate crab_app"-type script.
11:27 crab blah.
11:27 crab so detour() is experimental
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11:39 GitHub152 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * b859bfc (5 files in 4 dirs): added experimental support for NO_PROXY - http://bit.ly/hey8c6
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11:41 sri crab: well, truly reusable applications are mostly a myth so far
11:41 sri they only exist on a much higher level, like a content management system
11:42 sri on the mojolicious layer you reuse code in plugins
11:43 sri mojolicious is way too flexible by default, you want many more constraints
11:45 crab maybe i can supply default controllers etc. and let the user-app inherit from them and make changes if needed
11:45 crab but then the problem is that the plugin will need to be changed to refer to the derived controller(s)
11:49 yko crab: question is what do you want to achieve
11:49 yko you may create default controller classes, or just a controller classes and then use base '...'
11:50 yko that is a thing i usually do. anyway if your app is going to grow having own base controller class is a good point
11:51 yko that is why i have fat_app generator - just to store stuff useful for myself :)
11:52 sri clean reusable components are the oldest problem in the web framework universe, and nobody has really solved it yet
11:53 yko looks like that. with reusable componnets you are always tied to some model, data structure, database engine and so on
11:54 sri yes, you need constraints
11:54 yko so you are chained to mysql and few mandatory tables, or you component is dan flexible but therefore damn heavy and hard to understand
11:55 yko and for sure you need to solve few years to develop it, fix all bugs and make work
11:55 * sri would like a higher level framework using mojolicious and mongodb
11:56 yko and then after things are done you look arround and see: html8 arround and nobody (even you) needs your kewl component, same as you - grouchy old man :)
11:56 sri :o
11:57 yko sri, im not talking about you :)
11:58 yko you still are so.... well, you know :))
11:59 * sri already dispatched a bunch of terminators
11:59 yko it would really interesting to see next level in mojo -> mojolicious -> ...
12:00 yko oh, i remember you told that mojo is that level that should allow optimization like speedup for cgi
12:01 yko but actually cut off mojo is what mojolicious need for speedup in cgi mode :)
12:01 * yko is talking too much today.
12:01 * sri cuts off yko
12:01 yko is now known as y
12:01 sri :D
12:02 y is now known as yko
12:02 sri that grew back quickly :o
12:03 yko ye. actually i was illustrating how does cgi optimization works
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12:08 crab i have no problem being "chained to" postgres (in my case) and a few mandatory tables, that's what i *want*
12:08 sri btw. i'm quite sure the next layer in mojo -> mojolicious -> ... will be a "full-stack" plugin for mongodb
12:08 crab what does that mean?
12:08 purl You're a nut! You're crazy in the coconut!
12:09 * sri pats purl
12:09 * purl pats sri back, harder
12:09 * sri purrs
12:10 sri that means i'm going to try something new
12:11 crab do tell.
12:11 sri plugin 'full_stack';
12:11 crab yko: what is this fat app generator?
12:11 sri and you'll have something comparable to rails and django
12:11 crab or where, perhaps
12:12 yko crab: http://bit.ly/e9qU38
12:12 yko usually i generate new projects from there
12:12 sri i don't know exactly where it will lead, but i'll make using mongodb as easy as installing mojolicious itself
12:13 yko to be honest, it's mostly for own use, so you can see thing you won't like
12:17 crab interesting.
12:18 crab sri: why do you like mongodb more than riak now?
12:18 sri flexibility
12:18 purl flexibility is probably only useful so much as it is useful. or http://web.mit.edu/tkd/html/stretching_toc.html
12:18 sri mongodb is unique because it combines schema-less storage with ad-hoc queries
12:21 sri i have no doubt it will become the next big mainstream database
12:21 sri (for web apps)
12:24 chansen the word schema-less scares me ;P
12:26 sri ♥ document oriented databases
12:27 crab huh. so either setup is going to be a pain, or repeated merging is going to be a pain.
12:28 sri ?
12:28 crab for me, i mean. for my frameworky code.
12:29 sri ah
12:30 sri btw. the aljazeera iphone app is really good
12:31 sri flawless live streaming
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12:58 GitHub28 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 9f04375 (1 files in 1 dirs): fixed typo - http://bit.ly/eK0gp2
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13:34 sri interesting
13:34 sri Mojo::JSON seems quite a bit faster than JSON::PP
13:36 sri not that it matters :)
13:37 sri but another reason not to throw it away once JSON::PP becomes a core module
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13:43 GitHub60 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * ac8bad5 (1 files in 1 dirs): made Mojo::JSON slightly faster - http://bit.ly/gDMH02
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13:46 marcus NEED FOR SPEED
13:46 purl hmmm... NEED FOR SPEED is a godsend. or http://bbspot.com/News/2003/12/nfs_bsd.html
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14:04 yko btw, silly question:  $self = $_[0] should be faster thatn $self = shift?
14:10 sri no
14:10 sri slower
14:13 sri (afair)
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14:16 yko v5.10.1 n:10000000   $_[0]:   4.45 CPU @_:   4.60 CPU shift:    4.62 CPU
14:16 yko but i may do something wrong
14:16 yko https://gist.github.com/ab9e38849dc551a740dd
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14:18 yko anyway, difference is no more than 5%. doesn't matter actually
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14:29 sri interesting
14:31 sri it changes each perl release :)
14:31 yko results are similar on linux v5.10.1 and windows v5.12.2 @_ is most slow, but $_[0] is a little bit faster than shift :)
14:31 sri in 5.10.0 shift wins here
14:31 yko sri: exactly :)
14:32 yko it also can be platform related, no?
14:32 sri no idea
14:32 yko a also love that stuff: https://gist.github.com/9abff820fd7afbc373eb
14:32 yko sometimes may be usefull, but sometimes may confuse, i know
14:33 yko *useful :)
14:41 Christian there is something in mojo like that:  % template 'message';  to include a little bis code from another file
14:42 Christian bis = bit
14:42 crab include?
14:42 purl include is a shallow copy
14:43 yko Christian: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojolicious/Gu​ides/Rendering#Including_Partial_Templates
14:44 Christian thx
14:45 Christian very nice
14:50 yko btw, <%= memorize include 'nav' %> will run include only once and than reuse rendered result from cache?
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14:55 Christian why the question mark?
14:55 Christian and very nice to know
14:56 yko looks like that, except syntax should be memorize sub { include 'nav' }
14:56 yko or <%= memorize begin %><%= include 'nav' %><% end %>
14:57 yko Christian: was not sure, that's why checked
14:59 crab wow
14:59 yko i think it can be a good practice for keeping even static  template parts in separate files and don't slow down rendering
14:59 yko from other hand it requires careful handling ad reloading your app after changing such static parts
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15:02 yko from third hand (ye, Chernobyl™) if you are running under hypnotoad it should be as easy as kill -s USR2
15:03 sri memorize is best used with a block
15:03 Christian yes you're right, it needs a careful handling
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15:03 GitHub95 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * e79d221 (10 files in 3 dirs): pod cleanup - http://bit.ly/e1SKVA
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15:04 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojolic​ious/Plugin/DefaultHelpers#memorize
15:04 sri much more linking now!
15:04 sri :)
15:05 yko wow!
15:05 Christian crazy shit!
15:05 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojo/DOM looks funny now, with the selector overview
15:06 Christian ^^
15:06 sri but not all links work
15:06 sri not sure what to do about those
15:07 yko sri: which ones didn't?
15:07 sri selectors
15:08 yko that's about special characters replaced with '_' i think
15:08 sri it is
15:09 sri and i'm unsure how to fix it
15:09 yko just keep it as is :)
15:10 yko is it possible just to escape specials?
15:10 sri everything is possible
15:10 yko will check
15:14 perlrocks Twitter: "tempire at blogs.perl.org: Mojolicious Plugins http://bit.ly/exqcFB" (ja) --wPerlnews http://twitter.com/wPerlnew​s/status/24846520146726912
15:18 sri i have a solution, it's not that pretty though
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15:20 yko something like md5_hex? :)
15:23 sri ;p
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15:24 GitHub122 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 11f7613 (2 files in 2 dirs): improved documentation browser slightly - http://bit.ly/e9NG9L
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15:25 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojo/DOM#E_7E_F
15:25 sri \o/
15:26 yko sri++
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15:28 GitHub53 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * bec2f84 (1 files in 1 dirs): added any selector example - http://bit.ly/feyEKa
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15:29 yko :))
15:31 perlrocks Twitter: "Tweaked the #mojolicious documentation a bit, table of contents for Mojo::DOM looks quite sleek now. :) http://t.co/cvyNMY9 #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/24850839684255744
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16:03 crab heh, don't panic in large friendly letters
16:04 Christian cu all
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17:32 GitHub88 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * a814484 (1 files in 1 dirs): pod cleanup - http://bit.ly/gCCJVO
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17:37 chansen sri: please use a synonym lexicon for "cleanup", I'm getting bored of reading cleanup commit messages ;P
17:37 sri chansen: how about futurama quotes? :)
17:38 sri or a seasonal greeting maybe, "ho ho ho" was rather popular last month
17:39 chansen =)
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18:13 * yko wonders if sri will sue him.
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18:44 marcus Get a hitman!
18:48 alnewkirk yow
18:48 purl Here we are in America ... when do we collect unemployment?
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19:54 chansen Get a paladin!
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20:15 perlrocks Twitter: "latest #mojolicious commit fails on windows strawberry: http://nopaste.info/929357b33d.html" --esskar http://twitter.com/esskar/status/24922288986005505
20:38 perlrocks Twitter: "Great article on using #websockets through #perl #mojolicious http://tinyurl.com/4dfx9f8" --jamiepopkin http://twitter.com/jamiepopk​in/status/24928045940871168
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21:03 perlrocks Twitter: "... but runs fine on activestate #perl #mojolicious" --esskar http://twitter.com/esskar/status/24934525305888768
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21:49 sri ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!
21:52 perlrocks Twitter: "@ironcamel @kraih we need a http://www.ep.io/ for #dancer #mojolicious" --alnewkirkassoc http://twitter.com/alnewkirka​ssoc/status/24946756932345856
21:53 yko ALL GLORY!
21:53 yko yum yum
22:02 sri alnewkirk: cloud hosting is really easy, making it free is the problem
22:04 alnewkirk sri: what about heroku
22:04 sri they started with 15 million venture capital
22:04 alnewkirk and that ep.io python initiative isnt free, its just in beta
22:04 alnewkirk oh
22:04 alnewkirk lol
22:06 alnewkirk checkout my new toy Validation::Class
22:07 sri when i wrote hypnotoad i already thought about hosting, you could just add one more abstraction layer to sandbox perl
22:07 sri but all research showed that there's simply no market
22:08 sri too many sysadmin types in the perl community i guess
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22:09 sri the best you can do i suspect would be an ec2 deployment tool
22:09 sri perl people prefer to be in control
22:13 alnewkirk sri: i agree on all fronts
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22:13 perlrocks Twitter: "#Mojolicious + #vim + mojo.vim: template syntax highlighter in 250 lines http://epl.korshak.name/" --ykorshak http://twitter.com/ykorsha​k/status/24952080556888064
22:13 alnewkirk i argue we need to try to change the culture of the perl community
22:13 alnewkirk but ... meh
22:13 sri actually i don't think heroku ever earned any money
22:14 * yko hides in the corner
22:14 sri they burned through venture capital and got bought for 250 million or so
22:15 sri and who knows what salesforce will do with them
22:15 alnewkirk we need more mojolicio.us
22:15 alnewkirk we need to appeal to other types of devs but as you said, perl forces a culture on you
22:16 alnewkirk before perl, i wasnt as much of an elitist scum-sucking quirk jockey, ... thanx perl
22:16 sri a big problem is the perl foundation, which is too apathetic
22:18 alnewkirk so ... lets start a seperate organization (sect)
22:18 sri the other languages still have a bdfl that cares at the top
22:19 alnewkirk they're christian, we're muslim :)
22:19 sri XENU!
22:23 sri starting such an organization is actually a lot of hard work, just look how badly enlightened perl failed
22:24 sri there is no shortcut, the only way to change the perl community is by example
22:25 sri do cool stuff, be successful, make them follow
22:28 sri yko: oh noes, you've butchered the design!
22:30 sri yko: how do you interact with vim?
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22:45 sri seems quite fast
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22:47 sri maybe i should just look at the code -.-
23:05 sri http://www.hagenburger.net/BLOG/3d​-Github-badge-with-pure-CSS3.html # neat
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23:37 marcus HAI
23:37 marcus I LOVE YOIU ALL
23:37 marcus WITH A GREAT BIG LOVE
23:40 * marcus attempts to fill the void of yakoov in this channel
23:41 marty markus: \o/
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23:47 alnewkirk sri: who's responsible for mojolicio.us (design)

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