Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-01-27

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03:24 perlrocks Twitter: "Ask HN: Mojolicious or                   Catalyst? http://bit.ly/dJwll3" --ycombinatornews http://twitter.com/ycombinator​news/status/30466266670047232
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03:35 MojoGuest962 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (176 hits)
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03:38 sri almost done with my answer :D
03:44 * tempire is a little scared
03:44 sri i'm going to use him for marketing
03:47 sri going to poke him a little for mostly copying mojolicious
03:47 tempire just keep it positive
03:47 sri (not too much though)
03:48 tempire that's my only request
03:48 sri ye
03:56 crab answer to what?
03:57 sri vti is now evil
03:57 sri he wrote a rant
03:58 crab oh
03:58 sri well, it was not exactly unexpected
03:58 sri even though he promised not to rant
03:59 jdixon was vti a former mojo dev?
04:00 sri ye, core dev even
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04:00 jdixon why is he being a douche?
04:00 jdixon I mean shit, I got laid off and I'm still on good terms with my old company.
04:00 sri dunno, somehow whenever i make someone with a three letter nick a core dev they become evil later :S
04:01 jdixon heh
04:01 crab this is a very strange rant
04:01 * jdixon looks at yko
04:02 sri a few false facts, otherwise it is not too bad, the worst part is how people misinterpret it
04:02 sri Plack vs Mojolicious
04:02 sri which couldn't be further from the truth
04:02 jdixon but sri, they're exactly the same thing.
04:02 jdixon </sarcasm>
04:02 crab i also considered using plack to build my own thing, then realised that mojo works well enough that it would be a waste of my time
04:02 * sri grabs a flame thrower
04:03 tempire it's because mojolicious is awesome.
04:03 crab that was back when i was still using catalyst and dancer as well, to see which one i could get along with best
04:03 tempire mojolicious is the iphone of perl
04:03 tempire catalyst is the android
04:03 sri hehe
04:03 crab tempire: sorry, now i want to run away screaming
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04:04 jdixon it's the little petty phrases in his post that are irritating.
04:04 jdixon "a so called..."
04:04 jdixon "Among various buzz words..."
04:04 jdixon "...what Mojo used to be..."
04:05 tempire well that parts actually true.
04:05 jdixon everything he writes about Plack is objective
04:05 jdixon everything about mojo, subjective
04:05 sri Mojo did in fact change, i'm going to address that too
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04:05 sri Mojolicious has grown out of it later on
04:06 jdixon I'm glad it did.
04:06 jdixon that's why it rocks my socks.
04:06 tempire I'm wearing purple & black striped stockings myself
04:06 jdixon are they rocking?
04:06 tempire PURPLE & BLACK STRIPES!
04:06 jdixon :)
04:06 tempire the rocking is inherent
04:07 * tempire chuckles because it's actually true
04:08 jdixon marcus: good comments
04:08 sri yea
04:08 sri marcus++
04:09 sri more code - more bugs is even amusing
04:10 jdixon this might sound like a weird analogy, but I look at Mojolicious the way I look at OpenBSD.
04:10 jdixon it's simple, it abstracts cleanly, and it has good documentation.
04:10 sri we have about 10.000 lines of code now
04:10 jdixon (nothing to do with security per se)
04:10 sri Moose alone has 14.000
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04:17 tempire I'm starting to enjoy fringe
04:17 tempire it's taken several, several episodes
04:17 sri yea, it got a lot better
04:18 tempire walter is the best part, hands down
04:18 sri glad now i kept watching
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05:16 perlrocks Twitter: "Getting publicly criticised for using too many comments in my #perl code makes me kinda proud. :) #mojolicious" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/30494388664664064
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06:07 sri http://blog.kraih.com/mojol​icious-is-changing-the-game # too much? :)
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06:36 perlrocks Twitter: "#mojolicious is changing the game. http://t.co/wC8ssDO #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/30514411030446080
06:37 sri think i'm walking the line very well
06:40 sri really wish i was a native english speaker though... would make things so much easier :/
06:45 Puddles Thanks for writing that post. I was never really clear on the origin of Mojo(licious) or how it came about.
06:51 tempire sri++
06:51 tempire good show, man, good show
06:51 sri :)
06:52 * tempire is a fan of redirection
06:52 * sri redirects some beer to tempire
06:52 * tempire uses perl to alchemize the beer into an Izze
06:53 tempire *pop* *fizz*
06:53 * tempire is refreshed
07:05 perlrocks Twitter: "Ooh! Exciting debate # mojolicious # plack and # perl general Start here http://is.gd/AHT2iH extension / answer here http://is.gd/KNfOYz" (ru) --xomaa http://twitter.com/xomaa/status/30521872642744320
07:06 perlrocks Twitter: "“@sartak: Why I chose to build a #Plack framework instead of using #Mojolicious http://t.co/OdzC2hU #perl” I'm too." --nightsailer http://twitter.com/nightsail​er/status/30522054834913280
07:09 sri the whole debate is so backwards
07:09 sri use framework vs build your own
07:09 sri in no other language could that happen :)
07:11 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious is changing the game:  Good news, everyone!The Mojolicious community is growing quickly and w... http://bit.ly/f1AioR #perl" --PlanetPerl http://twitter.com/PlanetPe​rl/status/30523356377784320
07:15 marcus sri++ # Fair and balanced while still awesome
07:15 sri \o/
07:17 crab what is the difference between post_ok and post_form_ok?
07:17 marcus one takes a hash, the other takes a post body
07:17 marcus now it's up to you to guess which is which ;)
07:18 sri post_form is pretty damn smart
07:19 sri it does urlencoded and multipart/form-data
07:21 sri http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/​aix/library/au-perlweb/index.html # lol, click on the Download Perl link
07:21 sri really was a joke
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07:32 marcus mm
07:32 marcus damn you, IBM
07:32 marcus with your steel blue Business Machines.
07:38 sri LEAVE IBM ALONE!
07:39 marcus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FAuJod1XmY
07:40 sri lol, thats actually good
07:40 marcus mm
07:41 marcus <3 trickle on the ipad
07:41 marcus best way to consume tweets during work hours
07:43 sri interesting idea
07:43 sri could work nicely if i had a dock for my iphone
07:44 sri cute how they list Helvetica as a feature
07:44 marcus you should get that iphone tripod adapter. I think it would work well for this
07:45 marcus the glif http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/danpro​vost/glif-iphone-4-tripod-mount-and-stand/
07:46 sri wow, $137k of $10k pledged :o
07:46 marcus I'm using our own ipad cover.r.
07:46 marcus it's pretty awesome.
07:46 marcus We're starting production once chinese new years is over :)
07:47 marcus littleangryboy.com
07:50 sri not much to see there ;p
07:50 marcus not yet :)
07:51 marcus we'll show off some of the products in our podcast on sunday.
07:51 marcus mostly targetting the norwegian market for starters tho
07:51 moritz marcus: are you in .no?
07:51 marcus moritz: yes. Oslo
07:52 moritz marcus: cool. Loved the city :-)
07:52 moritz just a bit expensive
07:52 moritz my wife is half Norwegian
07:52 marcus I prefer Oslo in the summer to right now
07:52 marcus -14 degrees c here today
07:54 moritz "fun"
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08:05 PerlNinja afternoon mojoistas
08:05 PerlNinja quick question: any way to mimic Catalyst's $c->forward() in Mojolicious? busy porting an app over and kinda stuck on that one
08:06 sri no internal redirects by design
08:06 * sri waves
08:06 sri they tend to result in bad design choices
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08:07 sri most of the time a real redirect is the better choice
08:10 marcus PerlNinja: or you can just change it to be a normal method call
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08:11 PerlNinja well, thing is, this app inherited a slightly wacky design
08:11 PerlNinja and I'm sorta stuck on how to best proceed from here :D There's like, a bunch of utility functions that are living inside controllers that are accessed from outside the controller with ->forward, so ... myeah..
08:12 PerlNinja *puts on design hat*
08:12 PerlNinja It's refactorin' time
08:12 marcus yeah. that sounds like something you should fix
08:15 PerlNinja looming deadlines are getting in the way of sane fixing though :/
08:16 PerlNinja sri: and yeah, I see the sanity in not having internal redirecting like that going on :D
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08:19 perlrocks Twitter: "@ ThibaultT yes, it is virulent, but it is understandable qd we know the personality of the author of mojolicious" (fr) --sukria http://twitter.com/sukria/status/30540333892763648
08:21 marcus someone has a man crush on sri. :)
08:22 sri haha
08:22 marcus <3 translate
08:22 PerlNinja that's cos sri is a hunky chunk of perl coding man-flesh :P
08:22 * sri slowly moves backwards
08:24 * marcus opens the alligator trap door behind sri.
08:24 * sri falls
08:24 * sri eats alligator
08:25 * marcus closes the trap door
08:25 marcus now we have an sri trap door!
08:25 * sri takes a nap
08:25 sri *rawr*
08:26 PerlNinja and a srilligator
08:27 marcus alligator tastes just like chicken
08:30 PerlNinja you eat alligator marcus?
08:31 marcus well, it's better than letting them eat me
08:31 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious:: Session error occurred under mysterious circumstances" (ja) --rin1024 http://twitter.com/rin1024​/status/30543474344329216
08:31 sri wise words
08:33 PerlNinja 'tis true
08:33 PerlNinja Thankfully I don't have to worry about gators down here but the snakes and other creepy crawlies are interesting
08:35 sri eeep
08:35 PerlNinja there's 2 geckos living inside my old desktop machine :/
08:36 sri at least they eat the insects
08:41 crab uh, what? vti's rant is virulent because of sri's personality?
08:42 crab maybe everything will be better now that sri is inside an alligator.
08:42 sri the original was french
08:43 sri actually it's the other way around, i ate the alligator
08:43 sri i'm just trapped down here :/
08:44 PerlNinja lick the hypnotoad, maybe it'll let you out
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08:48 GitHub5 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 74c1b25 (1 files in 1 dirs): added cookbook recipe - http://bit.ly/egI4Ax
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08:51 perlrocks Twitter: "And here's the #mojolicious client recipe for today, enjoy. :) http://t.co/2GiSC6w #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/30548360955957249
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08:59 yko sri: will such file transfer be affected by MOJO_MAX_MESSAGE_SIZE ?
09:00 sri nope
09:00 sri because you are supposed to control the input
09:00 yko nice
09:00 yko morning. nice discussion btw
09:00 sri moin
09:07 PerlNinja routing question
09:08 PerlNinja $r->route('/dashboard/:filter')->to('foo#bar') ... will this work if I jus request /dashboard/ as well and set filter to undef? cos i keep getting not_found errors
09:09 sri nope, filter needs a default value to become optional
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09:09 sri $r->route('/dashboard/:filter')->to('foo#bar', filter => undef) or so
09:09 PerlNinja osnap
09:10 PerlNinja i just read past that in the routing guide
09:10 PerlNinja and didn't add 1+1 there
09:11 PerlNinja woop
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10:06 sri oh, in a followup i could explain how writing your own framework does not make you pragmatic :)
10:11 PerlNinja this isn't about being pragmatic I think, it's about epeen waving
10:12 sri we can only guess, he didn't tell me anything
10:15 sri btw. anyone having problems with github master?
10:16 sri the latest changes might have side effects again
10:16 sri (or made the old ones better)
10:41 PerlNinja newp i no use master, only what goes on cpan hehe .. production environment and such
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11:02 AmeliePoulain Need for help. Necessary to implement the installation and loading of "modules". "Module" plug-in is located in the file like lib/<modulename>/<modulename.pm>. I think I should somehow take the search subdirectories lib/ for "module", load the plugin to check if it is installed, and install it if not (for example, MyApp::MyModule->install()). The plugin contains "module", helpers, etc. Does you have anything ideas?
11:04 PerlNinja Module::Find / Module::Load
11:05 PerlNinja or use Mojo::Loader :)
11:06 perlrocks Twitter: "Need help! Loading "modules" in #mojolicious http://t.co/MW1uIo4" --Verolomka http://twitter.com/Verolomk​a/status/30582407463706624
11:07 AmeliePoulain PerlNinja, I will try it
11:07 PerlNinja cool deal
11:12 AmeliePoulain Something like my $modules = Mojo::Loader->search('MyApp'); for var $m (@$modules) { Mojo::Loader->load($m); unless $m->check $m->install; }?
11:14 sri AmeliePoulain: i warned you before about cross posting, please stop it
11:15 sri it's just plain rude
11:15 AmeliePoulain ok
11:17 AmeliePoulain Sorry, I forgot about posting messages from Twitter x_x
11:18 sri it's not about the twitter post
11:18 sri you are asking here and on stackoverflow, making multiple groups look for answers
11:18 sri and now that you have your answer you are not answering your own question there
11:19 sri thats simply rude behavior and will make people at some point ignore you
11:20 sri because you've surely asked the question somewhere else too
11:20 yko ... or ban everywhere it's possible
11:20 AmeliePoulain sri, you are right -_-
11:20 sri ye, in #perl you would be banned instantly
11:21 yko and because of i can't ban you on twitter and stackoverflow ill do it here and in #ru.pm, where (sri is right) you asking the same :p
11:21 * yko is a bit trollish today
11:21 * PerlNinja goes off to find the alligator so it can eat the troll
11:22 * sri feeds the troll
11:22 yko yom yom
11:22 PerlNinja no no the alligator eats the troll... not the other way round :P
11:23 yko troll eats alligator who eaten the troll from inside
11:23 PerlNinja it's an eating implosion!
11:24 yko yom yom. trolls are hunger. alway hunger. yom yom
11:27 * PerlNinja drops yko back into World of Warcraft
11:27 yko :S yakss
11:27 * yko has never played wow
11:28 yko too rough graphics, too limited opportunities
11:28 PerlNinja boring as hell too :P
11:31 sri digital crack
11:32 sri i'm sure those micro rewards in wow trigger similar brain functions
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12:13 perlrocks Twitter: "Why I chose to build a Plack framework instead of using Mojolicious / No time to wait http://htn.to/wu3pEe" --__gfx__ http://twitter.com/__gfx__​/status/30599167625666560
12:13 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious is changing the game - Sebastian Riedel about Perl and the Web http://htn.to/BDiYZ7" --__gfx__ http://twitter.com/__gfx__​/status/30599240820465664
12:15 gizzlon AmeliePoulain: when your acceptance rate drops on SO, you will get fewer answers
12:15 gizzlon AmeliePoulain: probably wise to accept answers there when u can
12:17 yko sri: does it supposed to work? perl -Mojo -e 'b(x(shift)->at("div.inside")->at("*:root"))->say' '<div><div class="inside">Boo</div></div>'
12:19 sri yko: nope
12:19 yko that's sad. thanks :)
12:19 sri :root should only match real root element
12:19 sri *+s
12:20 sri the DOM doesn't change just because you call find on a result element
12:20 yko i understand that
12:20 sri yea, easiest to explain with DOM doesn't change
12:21 sri you could stringify the result and reparse it
12:21 sri to build a new DOM
12:23 yko ok, question: any way to find alement that contains some of elements. and then select some kind of elements from it? <-- description sucks, writing some selector right now
12:23 sri perl -Mojo -e 'b(x(x(shift)->at("div.insi​de"))->at("*:root"))->say' '<div><div class="inside">Boo</div></div>'
12:23 yko like my $x->at('foo > bar > baz')->parent->parent->at('foo:root > a')
12:24 yko O_O damn, thank you
12:24 sri umm, that actually works
12:24 sri perl -Mojo -e 'b(x(shift)->at("div.inside")->at("div")->say' '<div><div class="inside">Boo</div></div>'
12:24 sri just :root is won't match
12:24 sri *-is
12:25 yko actually (x(shift)->at("div.inside")->to_xml) works better for me
12:25 perlrocks Twitter: ""When you're out of the project, critics say that I was not lied. Oh well. The point I pointed out that compared to you Catalyst, How is it. And even this reprehensible Do you think? "or feeling. / Mojolicious is c ... http://htn.to/mbjK4Q" (ja) --__gfx__ http://twitter.com/__gfx__​/status/30602213483094016
12:26 yko sri: it does: perl -Mojo -e 'b(x(x(shift)->at("div.inside")​->to_xml)->at("*:root"))->say' '<div><div class="inside">Boo</div></div>'
12:30 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious rocky." (ja) --5_1_5 http://twitter.com/5_1_5/status/30603668466180096
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12:38 yko it would be nice to have '> foo' selector that would match only direct descendant of 'current'
12:42 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious is changing the game - Sebastian Riedel about Perl and the Web http://bit.ly/dIU3Pw" (ja) --wPerlnews http://twitter.com/wPerlnew​s/status/30606461411266561
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13:25 perlrocks Twitter: "huh? @vtivti posts "Plack > Mojolicious" op ed http://xrl.us/bigbuq @kraih "replies" w/ "Mojolicious > Catalyst" op ed http://xrl.us/bigbum" --shadowcat_mst http://twitter.com/shadowcat_​mst/status/30617430686433280
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13:31 sri chinese food++
13:31 marty Mmm  General Taos chicken.  Yumm
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13:35 hexa Hey
13:35 * sri waves
13:36 hexa I do the occasional project with Catalyst. I've just heard of Mojo and I noticed on a blog it said that it's not a replacement for Catalyst but I'm wondering if there's any posts that are useful and compare the 2
13:36 sri where did you read that it is not a replacement?
13:36 hexa http://onionstand.blogspot.com/​2009/04/padre-mojolicious.html
13:36 hexa So it is a direct competitor then?
13:36 hexa It's not aimed at just beginners etc?
13:36 sri ah, a bit dated :)
13:37 hexa I like Catalyst, but I'm not a seasoned Catalyst user so I'm open to something fresh which is why Mojo looks interesting to me
13:37 sri it is the successor actually
13:37 sri i'm the author of both
13:37 hexa Ah. I knew it was the same devs but I didn't know the author of catalyst created mojo
13:38 hexa Do you work on Catalyst at all now? Or is it maintained by others?
13:38 sri by others
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13:38 hexa Hm, I see. The others think it's best to stay with Catalyst moving forward then?
13:38 hexa But you felt a re-write was better?
13:39 sri i wanted to keep innovating
13:39 hexa Yeah, innovation is good. I'm more with that philosophy
13:40 hexa I think I'll start learning Mojo then
13:40 hexa Do you code in Ruby and/or rails btw, sri?
13:40 sri try it for a fun project, read some of the docs and decide later
13:41 sri between catalyst and mojolicious i've done ruby for almost a year
13:41 hexa Have you taken any inspiration from rails into catalyst and/or mojo?
13:41 sri catalyst was created about the same time as rails
13:42 sri mojolicious did heavily
13:42 hexa I don't code in rails, just a spot of ruby but a lot of ruby programmers feel rails is the best web framework out there out of all the languages
13:42 hexa Would you say it's a lot better than catalyst?
13:42 hexa But mojo is closer to what rails is?
13:42 sri yes, to both
13:42 hexa Great
13:42 hexa Mojo sounds really good then. I look forward to diving in to the docs
13:43 sri mojo is not full stack, but a lot closer
13:43 * hexa nods
13:43 hexa I need to learn Rails at some point though to learn what makes it so good
13:43 hexa Ruby is nice though. It gave me a fresh outlook in programming and made Perl more fun
13:43 sri i'm experimenting a bit with a full stack plugin atm for mongodb, this should be a fun year
13:44 hexa Especially with the new perl5i type stuff
13:44 hexa and MooseX::Declare etc
13:44 hexa Perl feels more Ruby'ish these days, but with the things that made Perl great
13:44 espent Hm, anyone know why hypnotoad is complaining about "Can't call method "log" without a package or object reference at ... perl5/Mojo/Server/Daemon.pm line 320."?
13:44 sri there's a lot in perl5i that should have been in core for a long time
13:44 hexa Yes
13:45 sri espent: looks like something is wrong with your app
13:45 espent hm, need to investigate then, it runs good in the foreground, with daemon --reload standalone
13:47 sri is app->start the last statement in your script?
13:47 espent yes, its a Mojolicious::Lite
13:47 sri ok, dunno then
13:48 espent i got a regular sub defined in the file ... sub _post_to_crm {, is that allowed?
13:48 sri ye
13:48 sri there are very few restrictions
13:53 espent bummer... had 1; at the bottom :/
13:53 espent all good now
13:53 sri thats why i asked ;p
13:54 espent :) thanx
13:54 sri i'll add a check to hypnotoad
13:55 sri could become a common mistake
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13:56 GitHub10 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 008bae1 (1 files in 1 dirs): let hypnotoad check the application - http://bit.ly/gydBTg
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13:58 sri hypnotoad myapp.pl --test -> "/Users/sri/stuff/misc/repo/mojo/myapp.pl" is not a valid application.
13:58 espent nice!
14:00 yko sri: can you recomend a nosql to look in? Riak? or it's too early?
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14:01 * PerlNinja votes MongoDB but that's just me
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14:03 hexa With fcgi and mod_perl if you were to write a script that's an infinite loop and then connect 1000 times would it be forced to run 1000 instances?
14:04 hexa I'm just thinking about how an application that can run a while per user would work
14:04 hexa As opposed to a regular application that would just do something quick then return
14:04 hexa For something like that you would want to have a separate process running someone that takes requests and perhaps works with an event loop wouldn't you?
14:05 hexa So you can return some data to the user while the perl proc processes 1000's of things in the event loop and reports back when done through the web page polling
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14:05 PerlNinja hexa, funny you mention that, i had something like that cooked up with a friend to see if it'd work (we curious folk)
14:06 hexa PerlNinja: Oh, and what were the results?
14:06 PerlNinja but  that included rabbitmq in the mix - web interface process posts jobs, and the jobs get picked up by X workers who return results that way too
14:06 PerlNinja well
14:06 PerlNinja hello world worked
14:06 PerlNinja after that we went "ok point proven, let's drink"
14:06 hexa How did you return when the job was completed? The web app polling?
14:07 yko if i get you right, i di dsomething like that. bu i just made it with ajax status resquests
14:07 hexa Or the page constantly calling a polling script rather
14:07 hexa Yes, ajax would make a nicer UI
14:07 PerlNinja hexa, generated an UUID to go with the job, so after the job was posted, it'd just sit there ajax polling
14:07 PerlNinja with the UUID to see if an answer was received yet
14:07 hexa So that's the only way to do it isn't it. You can't have the web app sit doing work
14:07 PerlNinja the whole thing was fragile as fuck though
14:07 sri yko: i would (and will) go with mongodb
14:07 sri you might like riak too though
14:08 hexa A) The page wouldn't return in time and B) It wouldn't scale would it?
14:08 PerlNinja but it was something we cooked up cos .. well.. someone said it it couldn't be done
14:08 yko We have already arrived? no We have already arrived? no -_-
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14:08 PerlNinja hexa, it does actually because it worked along the lines of, say,
14:08 hexa Sorry you misunderstood. I know your way of doing it will work perfectly
14:08 sri hexa: what kinda work?
14:08 hexa What I mean is doing it without a job queue and external process wouldn't work
14:08 PerlNinja oh!
14:08 PerlNinja yeah
14:09 hexa Ie, doing the job in the fast cgi/mod_perl
14:09 hexa sri: I'm developing a site builder for marketers
14:09 PerlNinja you could maybe do it if you're doing chunked transfer encoding and you just keep throwing out <!-- not done yet -->
14:09 hexa It does various things like grab articles from various article sites, re-spin, put the site together, add google adsense ads
14:09 yko sri: thank you. i'm asking because i know you are watching nosql novelties :)
14:09 hexa And there'll be potentially 10000's of thousands of users
14:09 PerlNinja hexa, form a design perspective, that works better with a job queue in the middle
14:09 sri http requests are no problem, in mojolicious you can do them async
14:10 sri just increase the connection timeout and longpoll
14:10 hexa What I'm wondering though is more about fastcgi/mod_perl. If I have 1000 requests come in for say a task that'll take 60 seconds
14:10 hexa Will it create 1000 perl instances?
14:10 hexa Ie, use a lot of memory
14:10 PerlNinja well, no... sorta
14:10 sri ah ok, with fastcgi/mod_perl you're screwed
14:10 PerlNinja in order to handle 1000 requests
14:10 PerlNinja you'd need to run enough backends to handle it
14:11 PerlNinja which you can't do on a single machine - if you have multiple servers running backends, you can do it but then you'd have to throw more hardware at it
14:11 hexa Yeah. So I'd need 1000*memory_footprint_of_1_perl
14:11 PerlNinja correcto
14:11 hexa Yeah I'm going to have several servers anyway
14:11 PerlNinja and depending on what you do, CPU to match
14:11 PerlNinja but that's usually not an issue
14:11 hexa 1 front end nginx and then multiple fcgis on backend servers
14:11 PerlNinja yep
14:12 hexa The issue is probably more memory though with 1000 perl instances
14:12 PerlNinja mmm I dunno, I mean, purely from an architecting viewpoint that approach works
14:12 sri any reason you can't use plain http?
14:12 hexa But. It would be easier for me to just get more servers than to mess about with queues and event loops in a worker process
14:12 PerlNinja the job queue approach might be better here because you can probably run many more than 1000 jobs per server
14:12 hexa Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by that, sri
14:12 sri second
14:12 hexa ok
14:13 hexa PerlNinja: Yeah. The job queue with an async event loop is nastier to maintain though :/
14:13 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojo/Server/Hypnotoad
14:13 PerlNinja depends
14:13 hexa I'll be charging $49/mo per person
14:13 hexa So I can easily just get 50 dedicated servers if I need to
14:13 sri we have a very good built in production http server
14:13 sri that does non-blocking io
14:13 PerlNinja indeed, hypnotoad is pretty freakin awesome
14:13 hexa sri: Ah I see, you meant instead of nginx
14:14 sri you can fire off async http requests
14:14 sri behind nginx
14:14 hexa Ah, that runs behind nginx, ok
14:14 PerlNinja sri: you got any docs somewhere on how to do that?
14:14 sri http://mojolicio.us for example is pure hypnotoad :)
14:14 PerlNinja cos ... uh.. my  "oooo interesting" alarm just went off :D
14:14 hexa That actually sounds like it would solve a lot of problems tbh
14:14 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojol​icious/Guides/Cookbook#Hypnotoad
14:14 hexa Since the 'blocking' element is going to be from the grabbing of the articles etc
14:15 PerlNinja I smell opportunities for Mojo::Client to be all asynch for grabbing articles
14:16 hexa Yeah..
14:16 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/mast​er/t/mojolicious/longpolling_lite_app.t # tons of examples
14:16 hexa The only other blocking part is the spinning but I could run separate spinning servers and just pass data to be returned spinned
14:16 hexa That's pretty simple
14:17 hexa thanks, sri
14:17 PerlNinja hexa, better that way I'd say
14:17 hexa Yes
14:17 PerlNinja at least that way if you notice after having a bunch of users that spinning is taking up more resources, easier to scale just that part up
14:18 hexa Yep! indeed
14:18 PerlNinja woot. collective solution reached I'd say.
14:18 * PerlNinja charges 1 biscuit.
14:18 hexa :-)
14:18 hexa Where are you based, PerlNinja ?
14:18 sri anyone used postbox for os x yet?
14:18 sri marcus?
14:18 purl marcus is pretty sure lisp adoption is being hampered by being named after a speech defect. or http://picasaweb.google.com/olga.r​amberg/Lisboa#5240395957801479314
14:19 PerlNinja hexa: I'm a dutch IT geek living in Indonesia :D
14:19 hexa If you ever need work I would hire you in a few months when I start hiring programmers for this project
14:20 PerlNinja if you're okay with remote workers :) my wife's stubborn, she doesn't wanna get out of Indonesia hehe
14:20 hexa I'll be hiring a few in London, but yeah senior coders don't need to be on-site
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14:20 hexa I only like to have the mid-levels near-by :)
14:21 PerlNinja cool
14:21 hexa What I'll be doing is re-writing every bit of marketing software that's out there, improving it and building new things. All for $49/mo
14:21 hexa Starting with the site builder, when that's launched the money will be reinvested to build a team
14:21 PerlNinja well, lemme know cos i'm already on a project but I figure that one should be winding down a lot in the next few months
14:21 hexa Message me your email and I'll drop you an email when I'm hiring
14:21 hexa What's your rates btw?
14:21 hexa I'll be paying full time guys £70k/year with 0.5% profit sharing and yearly bonuses
14:22 hexa But it depends whether you'd only want to work as a contractor or full time
14:22 PerlNinja I don't really know, I usually end up negotiating stuff like that on a case by case basis, all I know is that according to most people I work cheap haha but that's cos cost of living here is so low
14:22 hexa Same goes for you too, sri if you need work in a few months :)
14:22 hexa I want to hire the best
14:23 hexa As long as you're not like $1k/day. I know a couple who are, which is tooo much :)
14:23 PerlNinja why hire sri when you can just go kidnap him :D
14:23 hexa haha
14:23 PerlNinja fuck no
14:23 sri :O
14:23 PerlNinja if I start charging 1k/day I'm not gonna get any work
14:24 PerlNinja last project I freelanced was a full ISO27001 security audit for a local company
14:24 hexa The profit sharing could make the programmers pretty rich though. If I get to 50k users, which I will that's $2.5mil/month so 0.5% of that is $12.5k/mo on top of base salary
14:24 PerlNinja i think I ended up at something like $20/hr ... radically cheap
14:24 hexa Which is $350/day or so
14:25 hexa Wow that is cheap yes
14:25 PerlNinja cost of living :)
14:25 hexa Are you more motivated by money or working conditions btw?
14:25 PerlNinja I rent a 3 bedroom house here for $3600 .. per year
14:25 hexa Nice
14:26 PerlNinja working conditions mostly, I mean, I like money as much as the rest of the people out there, but my goal's never been to get rich, I just want to do things I like doing, maybe innovate some, maybe do something crazy, and make enough to pay my bills and have enough left over to treat the wife to dinner a few times a month, and treat myself and my friends to a few nights of hard drinking
14:27 hexa Yeah, a lot of the best programmers say work over money and I felt that way before I got into business but.. When you make a *lot* of money you can create your own working conditions
14:27 PerlNinja internet down here is iffy though, 1mbit ADSL for $70/mo
14:27 hexa If you make a couple of million you can retire and work on whatever the hell you want in comfort for the rest of your life
14:27 PerlNinja hexa, true, although i sort of arrived at that point already, with the cost of living here being what it is, I can be picky about the work I accept
14:27 hexa Yeah :)
14:28 PerlNinja and I can afford to actually just take one contract that says 'you owe us 3 days of work per week' and the other 4 days i basically spend goofing off around here
14:28 PerlNinja like getting into arguments with friends and spending half a day to build a prototype of something just to prove a point :D
14:28 hexa Yeah, sounds like a comfortable lifestyle
14:29 hexa I hate the whole living to work thing. Working as a programmer in the corporate world almost put me off programming for life
14:29 PerlNinja eeeh it's got it's drawbacks, Indonesia isn't quite up to speed on infrastructure yet, like yesterday, an 8 hour power outage can sorta mess up your day
14:29 hexa The most fun I had was when I was 15-21 just coding for fun
14:29 hexa Ouch
14:29 PerlNinja yeah
14:29 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious is changing the game - Sebastian Riedel about Perl and ...  http://bit.ly/o0XkF" --Kyvaro http://twitter.com/Kyvaro/status/30633543352717312
14:29 PerlNinja happens about twice a month
14:29 jdixon that's why I became a fungineer
14:30 hexa What do you do for work, sri?
14:30 PerlNinja been thinking about buying a generator but i don't wanna deal with it to be honest, it's an excuse anyway to get out of where i live and head downtown and meet up with friends and socialise a bit
14:30 sri freelancing
14:30 purl freelancing is bollocks
14:30 * sri hugs purl
14:30 purl sri: bathe first
14:30 sri :(
14:30 hexa Ehehe
14:30 PerlNinja hey puri, chicken nuggets!
14:30 hexa Do you get a lot of good jobs through your position as the creator of catalyst/mojo?
14:30 PerlNinja and the bot no respond
14:30 PerlNinja :(
14:31 sri can't complain
14:31 hexa How much would it cost to get you full time?
14:32 PerlNinja I heard sri works for food... but that might just be a vicious rumour
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14:37 sri i don't do full time
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14:37 hexa That's unfortunate. A lot of the best guys don't though
14:38 sri oh, getting crowded in here today
14:39 PerlNinja rawr
14:40 yko need just 1 another nickname to beat #parrot, hehe
14:40 * sri wonders how many perl programmers booking.com managed to hire of their planned 30
14:41 PerlNinja I think they're about half way there
14:41 PerlNinja friend-of-a-friend working there
14:41 sri wow
14:41 hexa Crikey, 30
14:42 PerlNinja depends on who they hiring I guess :)
14:42 PerlNinja if it's only top shelf people, finding 30 might be hard, if they're willing to take anyone who can do enough perl to be dangerous, it's a lot easier
14:43 * sri would hire 30 ruby programmers and make them learn perl
14:43 marty sri++
14:43 PerlNinja oh that is
14:43 PerlNinja deliciously evil
14:43 yko sri++
14:43 PerlNinja and I thought I was bad
14:43 hexa http://jobs.perl.org/job/10810 They want programmers to 'lead projects'
14:44 hexa So probably looking for fairly skilled people
14:44 PerlNinja hope so
14:44 hexa Haha @ "solve problems" -- Wow, really? Who'd have thought they'd have to solve problems!
14:44 PerlNinja hehe
14:44 PerlNinja I just create problems
14:44 PerlNinja and make other people solve them :D
14:44 hexa Heh
14:44 hexa "Act as an intermediary for complaints and problems " <-- ??
14:44 hexa That sounds awful
14:45 PerlNinja that's corporatese for "you're gonna get shafted from both sides"
14:45 hexa Yeah
14:45 sri ouch
14:45 PerlNinja that whole ad sets off my litle "this job will make me kill people" vibe
14:46 PerlNinja i'd not last long.. I'm too much of a vocal opinionated bastard for that
14:47 hexa I'd never work for anyone else again. It's better to run your own company :)
14:47 hexa But of course working for me will be fun :)
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14:47 * yko onece thrown stapler into head of one, who created problems
14:47 PerlNinja hehehe
14:48 yko missed though
14:48 hexa I'm going to give all my in-house guys their own office, any hours they want, they get to pick their own job title which goes on their business cards for friends + office door
14:48 hexa I want to run an office similar to a pm group where we have 'social' meetings and talks etc
14:48 PerlNinja hexa, as long as you're the kind of manager who will be "here, make something that does X Y Z, I figure it'll take 5 days, how about it?" and after a little negotiation on the deadline, you leave me alone to do the work :D
14:48 hexa I'm not really going to be a 'manager'
14:49 PerlNinja yeah see
14:49 hexa That just doesn't really work for programming
14:49 PerlNinja I think you're on the right track
14:49 sri hexa: sounds like couchio
14:49 hexa Open source works. So a style like open source is best
14:49 PerlNinja you will have a few people tho that will be abusing the freedom you give them
14:49 hexa What's a couchio?
14:49 hexa PerlNinja: Sure, but they'd be out. At least that way I'd find out who belongs
14:50 PerlNinja hexa: yep, as long as you keep an eye on it so it doesn't turn into total anarchy, I think you're going to find a lot of people who'd gladly give their right nut (pardon the french) to work in an office like that :D
14:50 sri http://blog.couchone.com/post/3822403​06/thoughts-on-an-open-source-company
14:50 hexa But I think at the senior level it'll be fine. People enjoy open source projects that's why they do it for free. So if you have a company that works like that then they enjoy it *and* get paid
14:50 sri they have a few million venture capital to burn through though
14:50 PerlNinja extra benefit: you find and keep loyal people
14:52 hexa Yeah, that's similar to what I'll do, sri
14:53 hexa My company is a marketing software provider so it's huge money and the competition are c# idiots who write 1 piece of software and charge stupid prices like $500 for it. So I can also afford to do it differently
14:54 PerlNinja cool cool
14:54 hexa And plus it's great to work in a creative and happy place so I'm creating my own
14:54 PerlNinja oh, besides perling, I'm also one of those odd types who can do *nix system administration with eyes closed, in case you need some of that :D
14:54 hexa Sure it's always helpful. I'm going to hire a dedicated network admin though since there'll be so many servers. Someone who specialises in just networks/security etc
14:55 tempire ovid works for booking.com; I can't imagine it's that bad if he stays there.
14:55 tempire riak+++++
14:56 PerlNinja i looked at Riak, looks interesting but a bit.. i dunno.. for most of the stuff I do mongodb with replicating and sharding just fits the bill better
14:56 tempire Riak is amazing if you're interested in distribution among many servers.  And the basho staff are great folks.
14:57 AmeliePoulain There is no cow level =(
14:58 tempire ameliepoulain: you're speaking of riak
14:58 tempire my question mark just died
14:59 tempire ah, there we go.  you're speaking of riak?
15:00 tempire I haven't messed with mongodb, really.  But I do love that you can control the distribution, and the consistency level for each key
15:00 tempire (with riak)
15:00 * tempire can haz clear sentences
15:05 tempire I just recently took a full time job after 5 years of freelancing.  I really like the people interaction.  And, as it turns out, simply caring brings you really far in the corporate world, even for only short periods of time.
15:06 hexa Yes, I like working around people. That's why I want to build a fun/open source type office
15:07 hexa Some programmers like to work at home and say they work best like that but I think having a 'think-tank' kind of office is great for creativity etc
15:07 hexa Chatting and brainstorming with other smart programmers in a room is fun
15:07 tempire I figure I'll do this corporate thing for about a year.  After that, I want to try out the whole citizenspace thing.
15:08 tempire Marcus runs one of those, from what I've read.
15:08 tempire Or is involved, @ least.
15:08 hexa This http://www.citizenspace.com/info ?
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15:17 sri yea, coworking is all the rage now
15:22 hexa Someone in #london.pm was getting pissy with me because I was saying I'd prefer people in the office than working at home 3-5 days a week
15:23 hexa But I just think it's nice to have everyone in the office working together, collaborating in person
15:23 hexa Just a nice relaxed collaborating environment. Like you'd find in a university
15:23 yko theres different universities
15:25 * sri wonders if simpsons/futurama quotes should be made more obvious
15:26 * hexa hasn't seen futurama in a long time
15:26 hexa or simpsons for that matter
15:27 sri in Mojolicious.pm they might be confusing
15:27 hexa Yes
15:27 sri since they are mixed in with normal quotes
15:28 sri simple quotes might help
15:29 hexa Is there already a lot of simpsons/futurama quotes in the docs?
15:29 sri few hundred i guess
15:31 hexa Crikey
15:31 yegor maybe comment with quote like "#~ Quote". It can be done automatically since subtitles are available.
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15:33 MojoGuest50 From: http://www.google.com.tw/search?hl​=zh-TW&amp;q=WebSocket+Demo&amp;aq​=f&amp;aqi=g1g-m1&amp;aql=&amp;oq= (1 hits)
15:36 MojoGuest50 test
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15:51 marcus tempire: Yepp. We just expanded our coworking facility. Went from 150m2 to 500m2
15:51 marcus Also, today we installed a shuffleboard in the office :D
15:52 marcus 3.4 meters long
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16:07 mateu i'm considering mojolicious for project and I'm wonder how easily it integrates with a DBIC model?  e.g.  Are there existings methods that allow me to easily get at a DBIC model
16:10 marcus mateu: I would just make a helper in startup to access the schema
16:10 marcus so you can do something like $self->db->resultset('foo'); in your controllers
16:10 marcus it is really simple
16:10 mateu cool
16:12 mateu so startup must be able "inject" attributes into controller objects?
16:13 * mateu goes to readup
16:13 marcus lemme grab you a nopaste of how I did it for mongodb
16:14 marcus mateu: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/85162
16:14 marcus the reason I did the attr was so each child would init it's own mongodb connection
16:14 marcus if you don't want that, you could just init it in startup outside of the helper
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16:16 marcus mateu:  did you see my link+description?
16:16 marcus before your konversation krashed ;)
16:16 mateu hehe, you noticed.  I had to run to my other irc that was open (mateus) to see it.
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16:17 * mateu gets trigger happy w/ ctrl-w sometimes in the wrong context
16:17 marcus =)
16:17 mateu marcus: thanks.
16:18 mateu out of curiosity, what the reasoning for each child having its own connection?
16:18 marcus mateu: mongodb perl driver demands it
16:18 * marcus goes to wash off a child covered in pasta sauce
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16:22 marcus there, all better.
16:23 * mateu mentally prepares himself to eat more spaghetti code from the $day_job
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16:45 GitHub196 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 388f1aa (169 files in 29 dirs): made simpsons and futurama quotes easier to distinguish from normal comments - http://bit.ly/ewN0XB
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16:46 marcus lovely commit
16:46 marcus https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/38​8f1aa33a4aacedb8c5315deb6e9f83ba75e7ac
16:46 sri the mother of all commits
16:55 * mateu goes to drop marcus 's cousins off at the pool.
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17:11 perlrocks Twitter: "[perl] / Mojolicious::Lite - Micro Web Framework http://htn.to/PpTmHq" --yasutaka http://twitter.com/yasutak​a/status/30674147776397312
17:13 PerlNinja marcus, thanks for the mongodb link/paste - that solved one of my problems :)
17:14 marcus PerlNinja: add it to the wiki? :)
17:14 marcus it's probably like a FAQ at this point ..
17:14 marcus "How do I use my model in mojo?"
17:15 sri xD
17:15 PerlNinja hahaha
17:16 PerlNinja nah i use mongodb anyway, was just thinking about the best way to handle it, I just made a little plugin that'd stick a fresh connection on the stash
17:16 PerlNinja one thing though, is there a way o force a mongodb connection to close? because one way or the other i end up exhausting mongodb's available connections in a hurry
17:16 marcus beat it with a stick
17:17 marcus I dunno actually. Increase number of available connections?
17:17 sri should be easy to increase, i heard it can handle thousands
17:19 marcus I head it can handle millions! </topper>
17:19 * sri waits for someone to yell web scale
17:20 marcus wap scale!
17:21 marcus that is like.. 7 connections
17:21 marcus which is the most a wap site has ever seen
17:21 * sri even remembers those :o
17:22 PerlNinja OVER 9000!!!!!!!!
17:22 purl over 9000 is the last thing baud said
17:22 PerlNinja ...
17:23 PerlNinja yeah baud would've probably said 9600 which is over 9000... (har har.. joke failed to deliver from the beginning)
17:37 sri oO
17:49 * PerlNinja thinks Mojolicious needs a theme song
17:51 * sri agrees
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17:53 PerlNinja if you use anything justin bieberish, i'm going to stab you with a rusty spoon :P
17:56 PerlNinja http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KO3A8gUTGU ... my suggestion :P
17:57 perlrocks Twitter: "If Mojolicious has no dependencies, how do you access databases in Mojo apps? #perl" --chromatic_x http://twitter.com/chromatic​_x/status/30685750072705024
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18:15 perlrocks Twitter: "why are mummy & daddy fighting? http://is.gd/8LJXBf http://is.gd/fGdQmd #perl #mojolicious #itsmarketing" --dotandimet http://twitter.com/dotandim​et/status/30690278763397121
18:15 sri argh, he's spoiling it
18:16 sri PerlNinja: no ;p
18:17 PerlNinja aw :P
18:19 PerlNinja but .. it's groovy! :P
18:19 kaare__ is now known as kaare
18:20 bellaire Exception handling is an issue, but a tractable one.  I think dekimsey was going to submit a patch...
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18:55 mateu marcus: you might want to proof my recording of your words: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/wiki/Using-MongoDB
18:55 marcus Mateu: 96 per cent proof
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19:48 perlrocks Twitter: "@chromatic_x Mojolicious can speak to http+json databases like couchdb out of The box, but you can use other cpan modules too without issue." --marcusramberg http://twitter.com/marcusramb​erg/status/30713687924805632
19:49 perlrocks Twitter: "@chromatic_x just because Mojolicious only depends on Perl core, it doesn't mean your apps need to have the same constraints." --marcusramberg http://twitter.com/marcusramb​erg/status/30714137268977664
20:09 perlrocks Twitter: "fetching #perl modules on my free #aws #ec2 takes forever.. nerfed? guess I should be glad #mojolicious does not have more dependencies.." --oyvindsk http://twitter.com/oyvinds​k/status/30719133804929025
20:10 marcus Senior cpan people seem so pissed off about mojo not having dependencies. It is almost like it offends their religion.
20:10 gizzlon hehe
20:10 gizzlon still use cpan modules though ..
20:11 gizzlon well, not on this ec2 ..
20:11 marcus Yeah, nobody is saying you shouldnt
20:12 * tempire_ has a mojolicious app that depends on the electric company.
20:12 gizzlon port 80 -> 3000 proxy one-liner anyone?
20:13 perlrocks Twitter: "Sebastian Riedel (sri): Mojolicious is changing the game http://ff.im/wUSue" --sharifulin http://twitter.com/shariful​in/status/30720098427736065
20:14 PerlNinja I don't get that whole debate about the dependencies in the first place
20:14 PerlNinja the whole idea is that Mojolicious can be installed without needing any dependencies added, so you can get some lite apps up and going in no time flat
20:15 PerlNinja versus catalyst/dancer/etc. who seem to drag in every odd obscure module it can get it's hands on
20:15 marcus Yepp. Most of all, it's to recruit ex-php people.
20:15 PerlNinja meh
20:15 PerlNinja the one task I hate most after setting up a new server
20:15 PerlNinja is installing Catalyst
20:15 marcus By letting them play quickly.
20:15 PerlNinja because it takes forever
20:16 PerlNinja yep
20:16 PerlNinja and the ruby folk I'd say
20:16 PerlNinja outside of that though, purely from an app perspective, it's also a lot easier to bundle mojolicious itself along with the app
20:17 PerlNinja pack the whole thing up in a par and deploy to a clients' box without having to worry if they got the right bits and pieces installed
20:17 PerlNinja tried that with catalyst once and nearly threw my laptop out the window
20:17 marcus mmm.
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20:24 yegor PerlNinja: install without tests )
20:24 bellaire It'll finish in 20min instead of 120min. :)
20:24 PerlNinja yeah
20:25 PerlNinja v.s. 30 seconds for Mojolicious :P
20:37 DaTa i'm fine with dependencies, as long as they are not XS :)
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20:38 MojoGuest67 test
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20:42 mateu first I thing do with a new box is install MojoMojo, then I know I have a good half a CPAN installed :)
20:43 tempire_ cpanm needs all --all switch
20:43 PerlNinja mateu, pretty much yeah
20:44 PerlNinja so, since the Catalyst based wiki thing is called MojoMojo, should a Mojolicious based wiki thing be called CatCat?
20:44 marcus Heh.
20:45 marcus i wrote mojomojo long before sri wrote mojo
20:45 marcus Or even catalyst.
20:45 purl even catalyst is, like, annoying to work on, because all "major" changes have to be voted on
20:45 marcus The first version was written against maypole.
20:47 mateu and the next version will be written with your fishing pole?
20:47 * tempire_ sighs
20:48 PerlNinja marcus: I know, I was just funning :P
20:48 PerlNinja I get a bit punchy at 4am
20:48 marcus Naw. Next version will probably be using sri's full stack mongodb framework.
20:49 PerlNinja *perk*
20:49 PerlNinja full stack mongo... *drool*
20:49 mateu what's a half full stack?
20:50 bellaire You can write, but you can't read.
20:50 marcus Mojo
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20:54 * PerlNinja will settle for something that works, and doesn't cause me to tear out what little hair I've got left
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21:19 perlrocks Twitter: "#mojolicious is apparently faster at processing requests than #catalyst. I like this." --perlninja http://twitter.com/perlninj​a/status/30736800167231488
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23:23 marcus by
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