Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-02-04

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 chansen yes it would if it fits IV,UV or NV
00:01 sri now i'm a little unsure
00:02 sri it's a tradeoff
00:02 chansen tradeoff?
00:02 purl it has been said that tradeoff is that , like purl said, it isn't as powerful.
00:03 sri roundtrip integrity or values like '10e12'
00:04 chansen if you convert them to numeric values there is a possible risk of precision loss unless supported by perl
00:05 sri yea
00:05 chansen nothing you can do, beside using bignum
00:06 chansen or leave them as strings and let the user make the call
00:07 chansen or trying to sniff supported numeric values
00:07 chansen s/sniff/detect/
00:08 sri think i'll go for the current behavior, we can still adjust it later
00:09 chansen true
00:10 * chansen is off for real this time, need to be sharp tomorrow morning
00:12 sri nn
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00:56 * sri should better go to sleep too
00:56 sri Zzz
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04:04 tempire sri!!!
04:05 tempire hurry up with your mongomapper thing.
04:05 tempire so I can copy your design.
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04:26 crab hi tempire.
04:26 tempire hello crab.
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05:16 perlrocks Twitter: "[Announcement Scheduled to welcome guest lecturer @ yusukebe's # 2 4 / 19 will be held! The two-part system of morning and afternoon, morning @ charsbar Mojolicious's hands in the afternoon a talk tech. We welcome beginner's! less than half the seats remaining http://goo.gl/q5YzW" (ja) --hokkaidopm http://twitter.com/hokkaido​pm/status/33393410618429440
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07:06 marcus morning
07:11 omega moin
07:16 marcus hej omega
07:16 marcus jumping into my batmobile and driving to startsiden now =)
07:16 marcus c'ya
07:18 crab he is the dark-for-six-months-of-the-year knight
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07:33 Christian morning
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08:23 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious:: Lite SpeedyCGI a script error as you tried to move in the first run. FastCGI to run it. ." (ja) --clicktx http://twitter.com/clicktx​/status/33440562040422400
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08:29 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious application with Virtual Host support http://j.mp/hUqlYm" --likhatskiy http://twitter.com/likhatsk​iy/status/33442060086284288
08:32 perlrocks Twitter: "Alex Lihatsky: Mojolicious application with Virtual Host support http://ff.im/xlpk8" (ru) --planetperlru http://twitter.com/planetper​lru/status/33442819372744704
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10:28 sri good morning sunshines
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10:31 GitHub10 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 1906c42 (3 files in 3 dirs): replaced Mojo::JSON parser with a much faster and stricter implementation - http://bit.ly/ezAunN
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10:31 sri chansen++
10:41 perlrocks Twitter: "Thanks to @0xCH Mojo::JSON is now almost 3 times as fast as JSON::PP. :) http://t.co/klyAbqz #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/33475146798866433
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10:48 marcus chansen++
10:49 marcus sri: I've taken your perlrocks bot and am using it for our corporate irc channel
10:49 marcus added logging to mongodb.
10:49 sri hehe
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11:08 * sri pokes marcus and waits for his better error messages patch
11:08 marcus sri: I think you will have to wait until the afternoon
11:08 marcus on the clock now
11:08 * sri pokes marcus again, repeatedly
11:08 * marcus breaks sri's stick
11:09 sri :(
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12:05 sri think i'm going to change my indentation style :o
12:07 crab i hope the new json parser isn't going to break my code
12:08 marcus To K&R?
12:08 marcus crab: do you use invalid json?
12:08 crab no. actually, come to think of it, i only ever generate JSON. so i should be all right. :-)
12:08 sri from 4 to 2 spaces
12:09 marcus crab: yeah, that code has not changed
12:09 marcus sri: eww
12:09 marcus why? Do you plan to nest more deeply in the future? :p
12:10 sri nope, but i like the look of it
12:10 crab eww
12:10 marcus you should just switch to gnu style http://en.wikipedia.org/wi​ki/Indent_style#GNU_style :p
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12:17 sri why eww?
12:17 sri you should just try it
12:17 sri there's a reason it is the default for ruby and scala
12:18 crab i've tried it. my poor tired eyes don't like it.
12:26 crab now, how do i "extend" a default helper? e.g. wrap content 'blah' in something if it's non-empty?
12:26 sri make your own
12:28 crab entirely independent of content_for, or you mean one that calls it internally?
12:29 crab (because the ones i have are entirely independent now, but i thought i could save myself some trouble by using content_for, which you added after i'd written these ones)
12:32 crab actually. that's not quite enough. i want to make form_for add a hidden csrf field too.
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12:36 crab ok, i can call $self->app->renderer->helpers->{form_for}
12:38 crab i guess Renderer::add_helper will zap the builtin if i install one with the same name. but i could save the old value.
12:40 sri interesting, half an hour with 2 space indent and 4 already looks huuuuuge
12:43 crab does that seem like a sane idea?
12:44 crab personally i could just call it something different, but it seems like it would be a useful plugin in general... if only it worked with form_for, which everyone else would be using.
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13:10 sri all tag helpers are still experimental, making plugins depend on the current behavior might not be the best idea
13:21 crab what would you suggest? make my own form_for helper that ignores the existing form_for by copying some code and just taking a block?
13:21 crab actually, when i say that, it sounds much more sensible.
13:24 sri for now yes
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13:31 AmeliePoulain I tried to route my $r = $self->app->routes; $r->namespace('FW::Core::Controller'); my $rn = $r->bridge->to('auths#check'); $rn->namespace('FW::Devices::Controller''); $rn->route('/test')->to('test#test');, but test#test is called from FW::Core::Controller, not from FW::Devices::Controllerr. How I can solve this problem?
13:31 sri don't do that
13:31 sri namespace is unique
13:32 sri (in its attribute form)
13:33 sri my $rn = $r->bridge->to(namespace => 'FW::Devices::Controller')
13:33 sri thats what you really want
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13:40 crab sri: ->bridge->to?! not ->route->to?
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13:40 sri both work
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13:40 sri i just didn't want to confuse him
13:41 AmeliePoulain I have my application (CMS-like) module (namespace) named 'Core' (FW::Core::Controller) which has Auth, Pages and Users controllers, models and routes. Module is loading as the Mojolicious plugin (FW/Core/Core.pm). I want to add new "module" and set appropriate routes (e.g. '/mytest' -> test#test)
13:41 AmeliePoulain sry 4 my bad english
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13:42 crab what sri said is exactly what you want. $r2 = $r->route->to(namespace => ...) and then create all your routes under $r2
13:42 sri think i'll have to write a recipe for that
13:43 AmeliePoulain And I need to route all via FW::Core::Controller::Auths for the authentication check
13:44 AmeliePoulain https://github.com/VeroLom/FW/tree/new_module
13:46 crab Amelie: my $auth = $self->plugin('gimme_a_bridge') and in sub register do something like { ... my $auth = $r2->bridge->to('my#auth'); return $auth } and then create all your "user-level" routes under $auth
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13:50 AmeliePoulain crab, thanks, I'll try it
13:53 AmeliePoulain crab, hmm...it's good idea but I need to put 'module' routes into the module, not in 'core' module.
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13:54 crab i don't understand what you mean, but it doesn't matter where you create the routes. just follow the pattern above and chop and change as you wish.
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14:00 AmeliePoulain sri, you mean that all routes from the all modules/plugins/etc. can have only one unique namespace?
14:13 sri no
14:15 AmeliePoulain I need to make all routes via FW::Core::Controller:Auths but in own namespaces. I don't understand how to do it :(
14:19 sri use the namespace stash key
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15:08 sri hmm, think i'm sold on 2 space indentation :o
15:08 moritz you're just not good enough at avoiding indention levels by factoring out routines :-)
15:09 moritz ... says the one who can't figure it out himself
15:09 sri heh
15:10 chansen sri: glad i could help =)
15:21 mateu i'm doing some baby benchmarks with 'ab' comparing request per second (rps) for the builitin server and some psgi ones (HTTP::Server::PSGI and Starman). What I'm finding so far is that using psgi servers is NOT increasing the rps like I thought it might.
15:22 sri of course not
15:22 mateu of course not what?
15:22 sri the bottlenecks are always higher up the stack
15:23 mateu First, I'm wondering if I'm not doing somethign quite right to get the rps up.  I've started the app as so: plackup app.pl (standalone) and plackup -E deployment -s Starlet --workers=3 -p 5000 -a app.pl
15:23 sri just don't do it
15:23 mateu I'm not following you?
15:23 sri hello world benchmarks are pointless anyway
15:23 sri you won't learn anything
15:24 mateu I've learned that the bottleneck maybe in Mojolicious psgi implementation.
15:24 sri the bottleneck is on the application layer, databases usually
15:25 Christian nice weekend to you all
15:25 mateu I say thing because other framework gets a serious jolt in the Hello app when run under Starman or Starlet.
15:25 mateu why doesn't Mojolicious?
15:25 sri why does it matter?
15:25 mateu why do you ask?
15:25 sri when was the last time a customer ordered a hello world app?
15:26 sri i'm questioning your motives
15:26 sri what do you want to achieve?
15:26 mateu I wan to see how long it takes the framework to load up in minimal app.
15:27 sri why?
15:27 mateu that is my motive, and I want to see if using psgi helps that.
15:27 mateu why ask why.  I'm doing some research here.
15:27 sri ok, but why?
15:27 purl rumour has it but why is it undef and later the valu eis set
15:28 mateu because I want to know?
15:28 sri ok
15:29 mateu I'm askign to see if I can't milk out of Mojolicious in the simpelton example. I'm not seeing it behave like other framework and I'd like to know why
15:29 mateu milk more*
15:30 mateu I'm thinking it may need some help with its psgi implemenation.  Please corrrect me if i'm wrong.
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15:30 mateu if a hello world app doesn't get a jolt from Starman then how's a bigger one going to?
15:31 sri you're not giving me the neccessary information for a discussion
15:31 sri so i'm not participating
15:31 mateu what would be the necessary info?
15:31 sri i need to know the point of your experiment
15:32 mateu why?
15:32 sri ...
15:32 mateu I've given you some reason already, but they dont' seem to be enough.
15:32 moritz mateu: I'm not surprised. Mojolicious uses a server designed for its need. Supplying a general server plus an adaption layour should only speed things up if the custom one was slow
15:32 * mateu feels like sri is skirting some issues.
15:33 crab mateu: you're arguing at cross purposes. sri is saying that the "jolt" you get is irrelevant when you do something more than hello world, because then the bottleneck will be elsewhere
15:33 moritz mateu: I think sri has just made too much contact with XY problems ( http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=542341 ) to not ask about motivation
15:34 mateu I'm not talking about doing something else that mask what I'm testing.
15:34 crab so what's the problem, you've tested and you have your number.
15:34 mateu huh?
15:35 sri i've had these discussions way too often, here's my canonical answer to all micro benchmarks https://github.com/kraih/mojo/bl​ob/master/examples/microhttpd.pl
15:36 sri if you want to optimize for hello world, do it right
15:36 mateu my quesiton is really simple, why doesn't the hello world app get a jolt from Starman on Mojo when it does on other frameworks.
15:36 mateu that is an important question to me.
15:36 crab sri: but that doesn't say hello world!
15:37 sri crab: hello world has been optimized away!
15:37 crab oh noes!
15:37 mateu care to comment?
15:37 * sri does not care
15:38 crab mateu: no idea
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15:38 sri sorry to sound rude, but i don't know what else to say
15:38 tempire mateu: you're asking people to answer your question, but the people you're asking don't consider the problem space worthwhile.
15:38 tempire so it's going to be tough to get the answer you're looking for
15:39 mateu app rps is not important?
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15:39 sri at some point it isn't
15:39 mateu ok,  then don't mind me blogging about my experience. I gave you chance just to justify numbers but you werent' interested.
15:39 sri and thats what i expected
15:39 mateu basically, Mojo declined to comment.
15:40 crab they must be hiding something!
15:40 mateu was kicked by sri: mateu
15:40 tempire that deserves a ban?
15:40 crab heh, that will sure make the blog post more exciting
15:40 tempire seems kind of harsh
15:41 * tempire hides
15:41 sri maybe i misinterpreted, but he seemed rude to me
15:41 tempire I think he just didn't understand the response.  His question seemed perfectly reasonable to him.
15:42 crab yeah
15:42 sri you're the native english speaker
15:43 * tempire does a tribal dance
15:43 crab but why DOES starman not speed up my mojo hello world app?
15:43 * crab runs and hides
15:44 sri i suspected he was going to write a very misleading blog article
15:44 tempire probably.
15:44 tempire It might be a good idea to have a blog post on why micro-benchmarks are unnecessary
15:44 tempire Say it clearly, once & for all.
15:44 sri yea
15:45 tempire That would be good for the entire community, and beyond, anyway.
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15:48 sri and now he's attacking me in a query, seems my spider senses were not so off after all :)
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15:59 sri damn, i love 2 space indent -.-
16:01 bellaire but is it worth a changeset against every file in the repo? :)
16:02 sri think so :S
16:05 perlrocks Twitter: "@obfuscurity sounds like you need to design and release copalicious, a fun #mojolicious based ticketing app :-)" --AFreshOne http://twitter.com/AFreshOn​e/status/33556679610081280
16:09 dekimsey sri, my morning giggle-fest is not yet complete. what did you mean by "now he's attacking me in a query..." earlier?
16:10 sri lets just move on
16:11 * sri appoints tempire to be the channel sheriff
16:13 perlrocks Twitter: ""Notice" regular guest lecturer's welcome @ yusukebe # 2 4 / 19 will be held! The two-part system of morning and afternoon, morning @ charsbar Mojolicious's hands in the afternoon a talk tech. We welcome beginner's! less than half the seats remaining http://goo.gl/q5YzW" (ja) --hokkaidopm http://twitter.com/hokkaido​pm/status/33558714162089985
16:14 sri normally marcus would now pop up with a youtube video to provide the morning giggles Oo
16:17 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojo Hokkaido.pm # 4 and hands-on time, because all the talk of Suke ー Yu - san, perl is a must have for beginners, is a good chance to hear high Torafikkusaito expertise in the management of language towards others Yo is a must. Join here http://goo.gl/q5YzW" (ja) --hokkaidopm http://twitter.com/hokkaido​pm/status/33559821122805760
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16:21 marcus sri: sorry, busy dealing with angry revolutionaries demanding your demise
16:22 sri aww
16:22 bellaire would have been better with quotes... "dealing with"
16:22 marcus sri: Mateu didn't really care about the speed of hello world, he was just asking why mojo apps on starman doesn't perform any faster than the built in deaemon
16:23 marcus unlike other perl frameworks on starman
16:23 marcus anyways, I told him to try hypnotoad
16:23 sri thats why i asked for more information
16:33 sri wow, lots of noise on the list
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16:37 MojoGuest513 moep
16:38 marcus MEEP
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16:40 crab hm. how does Mojolicious::Commands->start work? can i extend a builtin command, or just add new ones?
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16:41 marcus rupertthehacker: great nick...
16:41 rupertthehacker thnkx -
16:41 crab i have a time-consuming thing i want to do only once, and only if the server is going to start.
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16:42 crab i.e. if i just run script/app i don't want it to do it, but if i run script/app daemon it can do $thing
16:43 crab i can't do it in startup because --reload would really suck then
16:44 crab and besides, it's not something i want to do multiple times (seed a csprng from /dev/random)
16:45 crab earlier i was using /dev/urandom, so i could get away with doing it in main always.
16:46 crab any ideas?
16:49 bellaire crab: why not just do it from the entry point script?  can you not detect if you are a daemon at that point?
16:50 sri do it in startup with an env var flag?
16:51 sri do_stuff() unless $ENV{ALREADY_DONE}++;
16:51 crab bellaire: that's pretty much exactly my question
16:52 crab bellaire: i'll have to reproduce (or hook into) some of the code that Mojolicious::Commands->start does, i guess
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16:53 crab env var flag. hm.
16:57 crab i hate it :-)
17:03 crab w21
17:03 marcus hmm, dancer cannot make a single file app?
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17:13 marcus # DO NOT EVER USE THAT FEATURE IN PRODUCTION
17:13 marcus # OR TINY KITTENS SHALL DIE WITH LOTS OF SUFFERING
17:13 marcus dancer has a bit of humor, at least =)
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17:28 sri almost coverted mojolicious to 2 space indentation :D
17:31 crab is it going to be mojolicious 2.0?
17:31 sri -.-
17:35 crab duh. i can just do: unless (defined $main::random_source) { ... } in App->startup
17:35 sri d'oh
17:41 crab i can't use Data::Entropy's with_entropy_source $blah, sub { Mojolicious::Commands->start }; as i had planned, but that hardly matters. i'll need randomness only in very few places. i can just ask for $main::random_source->get_bits(666) when i need it, instead of being able to say rand_bits(666) and have it work.
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18:02 GitHub67 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * e8805d1 (156 files in 25 dirs): changed indentation style - http://bit.ly/h0IPej
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18:02 sri :)
18:02 sri do not click
18:02 purl rumour has it do not click is was the url pasted by jeek or sungo? or like agreeing to take the survey that guy in the yellow windbreaker handed you
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18:02 sri i warned you ;p
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18:09 perlrocks Twitter: "I decided to use Mojolicious" (ja) --rshhh http://twitter.com/rshhh/status/33587919897755651
18:10 sri in soviet russia mojolicious decides to use you!
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18:22 crab sigh.
18:22 perlrocks Twitter: "Yomojo Mojolicious moji" (ja) --rshhh http://twitter.com/rshhh/status/33591331343306752
18:23 crab $ ./app routes
18:23 crab Fri Feb  4 23:48:34 2011 debug Gadwall:66 [10376]: Seeding secure PRNG...
18:23 crab Fri Feb  4 23:49:00 2011 debug Mojolicious::Plugin::JsonConfig:100 [10376]: Reading config file "app.conf".
18:23 crab i guess that's the price to pay for secure randomness.
18:24 sri i wouldn't mind a patch for making routes silence the log
18:25 crab in this case, i'm very glad nobody sent you that patch :-)
18:27 crab i'm seriously tempted to put that code back into main and run it if @ARGV says "daemon"
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18:28 perlrocks Twitter: "Yomojomojomojo Mojolicious moji" (ja) --rshhh http://twitter.com/rshhh/status/33592683393978369
18:31 sri welcome to the age of 2 space indentation!
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18:32 perlrocks Twitter: "Today is tomorrow so late Mojolicious Yomojoshimasu teletext." (ja) --rshhh http://twitter.com/rshhh/status/33593718762119168
18:32 perlrocks Twitter: "From now on i'm going to indent my #perl code with 2 instead of 4 whitespaces. #mojolicious" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/33593838752903168
18:34 crab or should i play caller() games? hum.
18:35 sri any reason this can't be triggered from the hypnotoad.conf?
18:36 crab explain?
18:36 sri hypnotoad.conf is a perl script
18:36 sri it runs whenever the server gets initialized
18:37 sri it is meant to preload stuff and prepare the environment
18:37 sri then again i have no clue what you're doing there
18:37 crab i'm just reading 32 bytes from /dev/random, and it's blocking
18:38 sri whats the point?
18:38 crab but what you say has given me an idea: if mode != production, i can use /dev/urandom.
18:38 sri yes you can
18:38 sri you can even use "sub production_mode {...}"
18:39 crab yes, i know, i already do that.
18:39 crab great. thanks.
18:39 chansen sri: did you intend to skip the "unexpected data after" (<https://gist.github.com/810296#L138>) in Mojo::JSON?
18:40 sri chansen: wasn't sure about it
18:40 chansen I think it's a good idea '[12345] foo' should fail IMO
18:42 chansen BTW you can speed up ->_encode_string considerably by using a map and s///gs;
18:43 sri patches welcome :)
18:49 chansen ok
18:49 sri unexpected data will be committed in a min though
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18:52 GitHub21 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * f039043 (2 files in 2 dirs): made Mojo::JSON slightly stricter - http://bit.ly/enYL6j
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18:53 chansen sri++
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19:01 sri chansen++
19:05 chansen should I add 0x7F to escapes, some JSON parsers has issues with DEL
19:08 chansen http://nopaste.snit.ch/30515
19:10 sri sounds like a good idea then
19:10 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious Event February 12th 2011. $100 per ticket includes Up Do Makeup Application, Minx Manicures, Cocktails & Sweets. Prizes etc" --bibisalonnyc http://twitter.com/bibisalon​nyc/status/33603287131357184
19:10 sri get out of our twitter stream!
19:12 moritz /kick perlrocks # helps
19:15 crab sri: there's no trouble with storing binary data in $self->session, right?
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19:15 GitHub55 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 604da7d (2 files in 2 dirs): improved Mojo::JSON string encoding - http://bit.ly/gJoVYo
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19:16 sri crab: it goes through storable
19:17 sri but i wouldn't really suggest it
19:17 crab why?
19:18 sri why would you send binary data back and forth with a cookie?
19:18 crab it's my csrf protection token
19:18 sri should be ok then
19:18 crab thanks
19:19 sri usually when people say that they cache something like generated images -.-
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19:19 crab yikes
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19:54 crab (as it happens there's a good reason for it to not be binary, it has to go in the form's value="..." too.)
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20:57 MojoGuest977 test
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20:58 MojoGuest303 From: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&​amp;cd=4&amp;sqi=2&amp;ved=0CC8QFjAD&amp;url=h​ttp%3A%2F%2Fdev.xantus.org%2F&amp;rct=j&amp;q=​websockets%20demo&amp;ei=HWhMTcnCNIT68Abx6InGD​g&amp;usg=AFQjCNGw6nZv0wO42uzUnHhWcD0vcKNULg (2 hits)
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20:59 MojoGuest494 hello
20:59 purl privet, MojoGuest494.
20:59 MojoGuest303 hello
20:59 purl niihau, MojoGuest303.
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22:24 * tempire puts on a sheriff hat
22:25 * tempire puts glitter on it
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23:30 tempire Norway looks pretty.  And the king's name sounds like a sci-fi planet: Harald V
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