Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-02-12

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00:56 GitHub45 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * b7669db (1 files in 1 dirs): pod cleanup - http://bit.ly/etrgt1
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00:58 * sri wonders if he should release 1.1 on a weekend
01:01 sri i guess not :)
01:02 MisterHatt start the week off with a bang, mojolicious mondays?
01:02 MisterHatt </marketing>
01:02 sri yea
01:02 sri maybe i can draw a little picture again
01:03 sri to celebrate the new code name
01:03 MisterHatt what is it this time?
01:04 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/bl​ob/master/lib/Mojolicious.pm#L40
01:06 MisterHatt futurama references, everywhere
01:28 sri of course! it's a rule :)
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01:55 tempire_ sri: tabs are the primary way I work with vim
01:56 tempire_ I use buffers, obviously, but they're not part of my main workflow
01:56 tempire_ lulz: "Because we can make them router"
01:56 sri tempire_: how do you open files?
01:56 tempire_ *rounder
01:56 tempire_ using nerdtree & command-t plugin
01:56 tempire_ more command-t these days
01:57 sri command-t does open in tab?
01:57 tempire_ sure, highlight then CTRL+T
01:57 tempire_ CTRL+V for vert split, +S for horiz split
01:57 tempire_ just "t" in nerdtree
01:58 sri ah
01:58 sri not bad
01:59 tempire_ I presume you know about leader mappings, to make tab management usable: http://pastie.org/1554830
02:00 tempire_ by the way, the sri color scheme you began months ago is working its way around my team
02:00 tempire_ or wait, you probably didn't call it sri.
02:00 sri heh
02:00 tempire_ your twilight attempt
02:00 MisterHatt aha
02:00 sri i have a proper twilight port too
02:00 tempire_ !!!
02:00 tempire_ You finished!?
02:01 sri ye
02:01 tempire_ Whatever you're doing, stop, and post it.
02:02 sri http://pastie.org/1554838
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02:04 tempire_ hmm.
02:04 tempire_ will have to try it on the macbook.  not working out quite right in gvim
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02:05 tempire_ "Because we can make them more round" is correct english
02:06 tempire_ but rounder isn't the worst slang
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02:06 sri heh, what does it mean?
02:07 sri http://twitpic.com/3yt1xf/full # this is how it's supposed to look
02:08 tempire_ same thing - saying 'rounder' is something you might hear in everyday speech.
02:08 tempire_ but it's not actually a word.
02:08 sri ah
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02:13 sri looking at them side by side i actually like the old one more :S http://twitpic.com/2p0aiq/full
02:15 tempire_ The twilight orange doesn't have the same kick in vim that it has in textmate
02:15 tempire_ not as crisp :(
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02:15 sri yea
02:15 sri you do have experimental rendeing on?
02:15 sri it's a little better
02:15 tempire_ in vim?
02:15 tempire_ I've never even heard of that.
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02:15 sri in settings
02:16 sri or actually not
02:17 tempire_ that may be a macvim-specific thing.
02:20 sri oh, apple+t and apple+w also just work for tabs
02:21 tempire_ the tab-movement shortcuts for safari work as well
02:21 tempire_ :tabm5 will move a tab to the fifth spot, although I think you can mouse drag them in macvim as well.
02:22 tempire_ "Components trading flexibility for more usability and development speed are not as common on CPAN as you might think." doesn't make any sense to me.
02:22 tempire_ My suggestion: 'Components specifically designed for ease-of-use and evelopment speed are not as common on CPAN as you might think'
02:23 sri thats kinda what i had before and people considered it insulting
02:23 tempire_ I think chansen's confusion was in the word, usability, which can mean several things
02:26 sri i hate english
02:26 sri in german we would just say "Benutzerfreundlichkeit"
02:26 tempire_ english is the perl of spoken languages :)
02:27 tempire_ german needs more whitespace.
02:27 sri for which the literal translation would be user-friendliness
02:28 tempire_ user-friendliness works too.
02:29 tempire_ But I'm not the target audience; I didn't have to be convinced of mojolicious' methodology, 'cause I was looking for something like it specifically.
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02:30 GitHub57 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * a04a799 (1 files in 1 dirs): english is hard - http://bit.ly/f0OWWZ
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03:21 mateu Components specifically designed for user-friendliness and development speed 'are not easy to come by'
03:43 sri mateu: http://pastie.org/1555031 # at least use the right layer
03:43 sri if you're comparing minimal psgi bindings at least do that right
03:45 sri your benchmark couldn't be more misleading
03:51 mateu my benchmark was out of the box, what you get
03:51 mateu why does everybody have to be a critic
03:51 mateu that's my job ;)
03:52 sri your intent might not have been malicious, but if someone asks i will have to call you out on it
03:52 mateu I need to clarfify that I took the simplest example I could find
03:52 mateu pretty much straight from the docs of each app
03:53 sri that benchmark is just plain wrong
03:53 mateu I know one could optimize the shiite out of any bench
03:53 sri nothing more to say about it
03:53 mateu no worries, i know you're opinion already
03:53 mateu I do think some positive things have come out it though, for mojo and others.
03:53 mateu so dont' take it too harshly
03:54 mateu i like mojo(licious)
03:54 mateu feels like good quality to me.
03:55 mateu in other words the benchmark won't keep me from using it.
03:55 sri that's good, but these kinds of comparisons never end well
03:56 sri most readers don't know how to interpret them and only see the blue bars
03:56 sri you are actively discouraging higher level abstraction and innovation
03:59 sri i don't care about the benchmark itself, but the consequences of it
04:01 sri every new misleading micro benchmark convinces the unknowing web developer a little more that it is a valid metric for comparing frameworks
04:01 mateu That's a very valid point.
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04:02 mateu How might I mitigate that emotion?
04:02 sri wish i knew the answer to that :)
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04:03 mateu something like time to write the app, but that' so hard to gauge for multiple frameworks at time.
04:03 mateu because after the first write on one framework, it's got to be easier (to some degree) in the next.
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04:05 tempire mateu: if you know it's misleading, what's the point of the comparison?
04:05 mateu one could at leas say how the experience was,  writing an app to different frameworks.  I thinnk mojo would fair quite well.
04:05 mateu "you gotta mess with people" - utah philips
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04:06 tempire I presume you're kidding, and that you don't specifically want to mess with people.
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04:09 mateu mess with the little boxes they live in?  yeah I do want to rattle the cage a bit.  it's my nature ;)
04:10 mateu nothing malicious as sri said, just mischievious
04:12 tempire oooh!  My mojo::dom blog entry is the second result when searching for mojo::dom
04:12 sri \o/
04:13 tempire We need to figure out a way to get google search results for mojo::/mojolicious;: modules to go to mojolicio.us/perldoc before cpan
04:13 tempire or @ least show up in the first couple of results
04:14 sri hard to beat the pagerank i guess
04:15 tempire I recall you saying ::dom supports all the css3 selectors that make sense
04:16 tempire Do you recall which ones you left out?
04:16 sri namespaces and state specific ones
04:17 sri :enabled and the :: pseudo classes
04:18 sri ::first-line makes no sense for selection, just styling
04:18 sri right, and :lang
04:19 sri that one might make sense somewhen in the future
04:24 sri i love the new command line tricks
04:24 sri "mojo get -v http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/ '*' attr id"
04:25 sri or "mojo get http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/ 'h1, h2, h3' all"
04:28 tempire that's ridiculous
04:29 perlrocks Twitter: "#mojolicious hack of the day: "mojo get http://t.co/e1dyWo8 'h1, h2, h3' all" #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/36280616915832832
04:29 tempire where's that documented?
04:30 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojoli​cious/Guides/Cookbook#Command_Line
04:33 sri weren't you here when i added it on wednesday?
04:34 tempire I recall you talking about it, I didn't know it was completed & pushed
04:34 sri :)
04:35 tempire guess reddit has scraper checks
04:35 sri quite a few traps
04:37 sri hackernews was also rather hard
04:37 tempire So I've made a riak command line tool
04:38 tempire karyn list bucket/key
04:38 sri cool
04:38 tempire karyn list bucket, karyn list -k key (searches all buckets)
04:38 sri wish riak had better ad-hoc queries
04:38 sri but i guess they'll invest heavily in riak now with the funding
04:39 sri $7.5 million
04:39 tempire into basho?
04:39 sri ye
04:39 tempire nice new website
04:39 sri little boring, but much better than the old one
04:40 tempire their licensing is really great
04:40 sri they are really great in general
04:40 tempire I called to get the enterprise product, and they're willing to give as many as necessary for dev & qa
04:40 tempire their only stipulation was, 'don't way we suck on the twitters', let us help you develop your solution.
04:40 tempire um...ok.
04:41 sri :)
04:41 tempire actually, I reiterated, 'so, you want to help us do everything we thought we had to do on our own, right?'
04:41 tempire anthony falco replied, 'let me look up help in the dictionary....yes, that's exactly what I mean'
04:42 tempire made me want to learn erlang & apply for a job
04:42 sri "[04:21] mateu: Components specifically designed for user-friendliness and development speed 'are not easy to come by'" hmm, i like where this is going
04:43 sri erlang is harsh
04:43 sri unless you're into the whole prolog thing
04:44 jamesw i love prolog, erlang not so much
04:44 tempire I just know I want to master a functional language.
04:46 perlrocks Twitter: "Lets change the #mojolicious hack of the day to something twitter won't eat. :) "mojo get -r -v http://t.co/e1dyWo8 'h1, h2, h3' all" #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/36284978014720000
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04:59 jdixon sri: sorry if I was unclear. I meant that you usually link to a new doc section in your HoTD tweets.
04:59 sri ah
05:00 sri i did earlier this week
05:00 jdixon if that wasn't your intent, please disregard :)
05:02 sri the hack also comes a bit early
05:02 sri it requires 1.1
05:03 sri actually i don't remember if i linked to documentation for hacks
05:04 perlrocks Twitter: "And here's the explanation of the hack. ;) http://t.co/dduvV4c #mojolicious #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/36289548875071488
05:07 crab hmm
05:07 crab so when someone sends you a "pull request" on github, it's really no different from sending you email saying "you can pull from git://...
05:08 crab "
05:08 crab how disappointing
05:24 sri you can discuss in public, people can join
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06:44 tempire suggestion for mojo get....--json switch
06:53 perlrocks Twitter: "Performance Testing PSGI # Perl frameworks http://goo.gl/fb/VIzxT # dancer # mojolicious # performance" (ru) --allframeworks http://twitter.com/allframewo​rks/status/36316848836313088
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07:05 sri tempire: what would it do?
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07:29 marcus sri: parse body as json and output it data-dumper style?
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08:30 yko hmm. i think i need to steal sri's color scheme :D
08:44 crab is sri very colourful?
08:50 yko he's les lazy than i'm i think
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09:01 marcus bah
09:01 marcus guess mateu was going to do another useless benchmark blog post after all
09:01 marcus mateu: if you say in the introduction it's not interesting, why do it?
09:13 marcus mateu: also curious why you excluded catalyst from your benchmarks.
09:18 perlrocks Twitter: "Django Jam guessing. google appengine made to see something in there seemed to jam. mojo in perl I wish I could make something as dancer dolryeobol lack of an environment that does not .. This support would be nice perl in appengine." (ko) --harpcross http://twitter.com/harpcros​s/status/36353439722119168
09:18 perlrocks Twitter: "Django Jam guessing. google appengine made to see something in there seemed to jam. mojo in perl I wish I could make something as dancer dolryeobol lack of an environment that does not .. This support would be nice perl in appengine." (ko) --bejuryuharp http://twitter.com/bejuryuha​rp/status/36353499813904384
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10:37 tempire sri, marcus: yes, to parse body as json and output is data-dumper style
10:38 marcus Actually, i think just reformatting the json to be nicely indented would go a long way :)
10:38 tempire that would be fine
10:38 marcus I have a chrome plugin that does that for me, + lets me fold blocks.
10:39 tempire though I would think it easier to just pass content to Mojo::JSON
10:40 tempire the chrome plugin is actually what I was thinking of
10:42 marcus SEEK AND DESTROY
10:42 * marcus is rocking the office while $offspring is at russian saturday school,
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10:47 tempire hmm, the JSON mod provides a ->pretty option.  Looks easy enough to implement.  I'm going to have to do that for my karyn tool.
10:47 crab karyn tool?
10:47 tempire command line riak client
11:00 MisterHatt good to see SOMEONE understands these nosql DB's
11:00 MisterHatt I get incredibly confused trying to figure out how to model my data in them :V
11:00 crab that's your mistake, you should just dump stuff in willy nilly
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13:45 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious:: Lite even finished reading. http://bit.ly/hx6geZ / / Guides:: Routing and Guide:: Rendering roughly have a feeling that it was written. But that, Lite Mojolicious and that very high compatibility." (ja) --tsukamoto http://twitter.com/tsukamot​o/status/36420730266583040
13:48 perlrocks Twitter: "CGI files to think about one now necessary knowledge to make purchases, the first CGI:: App Tagukuraudomeka made a tumblr of Mojolicious:: Lite Should I re-based oyster. http://digit.que.ne.jp/tumbletag/" (ja) --tsukamoto http://twitter.com/tsukamot​o/status/36421467168047104
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14:48 crab CGI::App::Tagukuraudomeka
15:02 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious:: Guides:: Growing and translating to about a half http://dlvr.it/GQK9X" (ja) --hiraba_reader http://twitter.com/hiraba_rea​der/status/36439995589984256
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15:47 MojoGuest327 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (219 hits)
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17:52 sri tempire: you're going to add pretty printing to Mojo::JSON?
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18:00 sri hmm, fulltext search is planned for mongodb in early 2011
18:08 stephan48 does anyone know how the format for passwords is called that are stored like "{algo}algoedpw"? LDAP does this f.e.
18:09 stephan48 algo could be for example crypt or plain or sha or ssha for salted sha
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18:42 perlrocks Twitter: "We are having a glamxurious mojolicious day @Bibi Salon. Come on in there is still time for you to feel and look FABULOUS." --bibisalonnyc http://twitter.com/bibisalon​nyc/status/36495355189141505
19:04 sri fabulous
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19:17 barries Hi folks
19:18 barries Is there a way to get the server name and port that the built-in httpd is listening on at or around the same time it prints "Server available at..."?
19:23 crab it just listens on whatever you tell it to --listen on
19:23 crab or do you mean during testing or something?
19:26 barries hey crab!
19:27 barries I'm writing a local webapp, so I want to spawn a browser pointed at the server.
19:52 crab hmm, does $r->post('/foo' => 'blah#deblah') work?
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19:56 crab guess not.
20:12 sri of course not, second string parameter is reserved for route name
20:14 sri barries: just decide yourself what to listen on
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20:21 barries @sri: I know how to set the port :). I'm looking for a to call some Perl code after it does the listen and before any requests are received, then get the port it is listening on from the server or I/O loop object, and use something like IPC::Run to start a browser pointing at the server.
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20:21 barries s/a to call/a way to call/
20:24 sri ok, there is nothing built in to do that
20:25 sri your app is not supposed to know anything about the deployment environment
20:26 barries Gorcha. Wrong tool for the job.
20:26 sri the server could be listening on 50 ports, maybe https, or just be run as a cgi script
20:27 sri i would just use a wrapper script to start both
20:27 barries p'haps. prolly look at subclassing though, when I get farther along.
20:27 sri you can then use Mojo::IOLoop->generate_port to search for a free port
20:28 barries ah, that could be useful.
20:28 barries thanks for the help, I appreciate it.
20:29 sri sure, you could write a little wiki recipe once you get it working ;)
20:29 barries on_when_working => \&will_do.
20:29 sri \o/
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22:07 marcus shit
22:07 marcus my mac is sooo fast now
22:07 marcus why didn't I get an SSD before?
22:08 jdixon because you didn't listen when I told you so?  :)
22:09 stephan48 mac and fast??
22:09 * marcus slaps stephan48 with a big trout.
22:10 stephan48 :)
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22:17 * sri wants ssd too
22:17 jdixon it's so worth it
22:18 * stephan48 wants a external ssd
22:18 jdixon I had to get a new laptop when I got laid off. Was hesitant to go with the MBA because I use VMs a lot and was worried about speed.
22:18 jdixon Little did I realize just how much an impact the SSD would have. :)
22:20 stephan48 in a bridge what will happen when i return 0? what response will be send?
22:21 sri none
22:21 sri you are responsible for generating responses
22:23 marcus jdixon: I put a ssd into my mbp. it was pretty easy
22:24 stephan48 so i could return a response and then quit the chain with a undef return in the bridge callback?
22:24 marcus apple laptops are really pretty on the inside.
22:24 stephan48 f.e. something like permission denied or entry not found
22:24 sri that's what you're supposed to do
22:25 stephan48 ah ok
22:25 sri or at least redirect to a login form or so
22:25 stephan48 ye
22:26 sri ok, drawn a littl somthing for the 1.1 release, now just need to write about the highlights :)
22:26 stephan48 i thought redirect to login form if a special flag is set in db(free for special users/users with special permissions) or if user tries to do a administrative task like delete or edit, and if no entry is found a 404 response
22:26 stephan48 :)
22:27 marcus sri: did you decide the unicode symbol?
22:27 sri few days ago already
22:27 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/bl​ob/master/lib/Mojolicious.pm#L40
22:28 marcus oh wow, the dark horse
22:28 marcus nobody expects the cat with the heart-shaped eyes.
22:46 marcus sri: seen http://itunes.apple.com/no/ap​p/artboard/id414551588?mt=12 ?
22:46 purl I haven't seen 'http://itunes.apple.com/no/ap​p/artboard/id414551588?mt=12', marcus
22:46 * marcus pushes purl down the stairs
22:46 * purl dodges and laughs as marcus loses balance and crashes down the stairs.
22:47 * sri hugs purl
22:47 purl sri: get off me, you botvert!
22:47 sri doesn't look as nice as sketch
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23:17 marcus I have no clue, just noticed it was featured in the app store
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23:29 sri vectormator might be interesting
23:29 sri there are rumors that the pixelmator folks are working on something
23:34 jdixon sri: working on what?
23:34 * jdixon uses pixelmator
23:35 sri vectormator
23:35 jdixon ah
23:35 sri they even have the domain
23:35 jdixon interesting
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