Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-03-08

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:21 * mateu scrubs tempire 's floor
00:22 alnewkirk-away joined #mojo
00:24 * edenc scrubs mateu's mom
00:26 jawnsy lol, who hasn't
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00:30 mateu sticks and stone may break my bones, but words will never hurt me ;)
00:31 jawnsy mateu: you know *I'd* never hurt you *swoon*
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00:32 mateu :P
00:32 edenc mateu: :*
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00:51 * mateu feels loved
00:52 edenc mateu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7Au_CrUAlk
00:54 mateu copyright block for my country
00:54 edenc oh, what a shame
00:54 purl How could you? Especially with your mom needing that operation and all..
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01:23 jawnsy sri: heh, I think CC Non-Commercial/No-Derivatives does not count as a DFSG-free license...
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02:01 tempire sri: why do you need ptrace, as opposed to something like user-mode linux?
02:34 tempire seems to me a uml could do the trick, using a cow loopback hard drive
02:34 tempire er, cow loopback disk
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03:23 tempire hmm, ok, I see how ptrace is the ideal.
04:22 minimalist how do you get the application directory on the server?
04:23 minimalist nevermind, found it.
04:35 sri jawnsy: but CC-SA does ;)
04:35 sri jawnsy: it's all relicensed on github
04:35 sri tempire: ptrace is cheaper
04:36 sri tempire: but i don't need it anymore, since other people are solving the cloud hosting problem now :)
04:36 tempire indeed, I see now that I've read more about it
04:37 sri don't forget to sign up for beta
04:37 sri http://www.phenona.com/
04:44 minimalist sri, will phenona be able to handle high volumes of traffic?
04:47 Alias It's cloudy
04:47 edenc Alias++
04:47 Alias Based on Amazon
04:47 Alias Presumably if the database can handle it, you can spool up more web instances
04:48 edenc Alias: oh, I thought the "cloudy" was a pun on the vague question you were answering ;)
04:48 Alias :)
04:51 minimalist thanks for answering, but it's still cloudy, i.e. vague
04:52 edenc minimalist: it's a cloud
04:52 edenc minimalist: clouds have several nodes that you can add or remove to create more or less processing power
04:52 minimalist and a single database machine?
04:53 edenc whatever you decide to go with...
04:53 Alias That would be the normal model for intermediate-level hosting
04:53 Alias One database, many web application servers, and it's up to your application design how hard you push the database
04:54 minimalist cool, that makes sense. thanks.
04:54 Alias I run a billion dollar e-commerce site on that model... the database chews up about 3-4 cores
04:54 Alias And we've got 6 x 4-core web application front ends, and a static content server
04:54 minimalist you work for amazon?
04:54 Alias Note: I don't OWN it, just look after it :)
04:54 Alias I work for a company you've never heard of
04:55 Alias And the e-commerce site is not visible to the public
04:55 Alias But has 100,000 users
04:55 minimalist that's a billion u.s. dollars, I assume ...
04:55 Alias Yup
04:55 minimalist respect
04:55 Alias It was like this when I got here
04:55 edenc Alias: secret sex club selling fetish apparel? ;)
04:56 Alias At the extreme boring end of that spectrum
04:56 Alias We've got 140,000 products
04:56 edenc wow, people are creative these days
04:56 Alias Where that spectrum spans from dildos at one end, to dirt or printer paper at the other end
04:57 Alias hrm
04:57 Alias I'm not sure we sell dirt
04:57 Alias I'd have to check
04:58 Alias I can sell you a bic biro, or sulphuric acid, or a body bag, or a laptop, or a rubber chicken, or chalk
04:58 minimalist I happen to need all of the above
04:59 Alias Are you a company with more than 20 people?
04:59 Alias :)
04:59 minimalist nope
04:59 minimalist free lancer
05:00 edenc from the above I only need body bags, lot's of 'em
05:01 Alias That could be tricky
05:01 Alias They are a controlled weapon
05:01 Alias (I kid you not)
05:02 minimalist Alias, is the entire site written in perl?
05:04 Alias 150,000 lines, yeah
05:04 minimalist catalyst?
05:04 purl catalyst is easy or http://www.catalystframework.org/
05:04 Alias And an 80meg install of CPAN dependencies
05:04 Alias I think there's 120 direct deps
05:04 Alias Hells no
05:04 Alias This thing is too big for Cat
05:04 Alias Also, it was originally started in 1995
05:05 Alias And has been rewritten several times
05:05 Alias It has it's own Cat-like ORM
05:05 edenc Alias: why is it too big?
05:05 edenc Alias: and Cat doesn't have an ORM so it couldn't possibly be "cat-like"
05:06 Alias Well, it has a cat-ish MVC layer, and an ORM, and a etc etc
05:06 Alias And it's own logging infrastructure, and specialised exceptions, and so on
05:07 edenc catalyst is just a configurable dispatcher with plugin support
05:07 Alias Very little of the actual bulk of the code is devoted to that though
05:07 Alias Plus cat is Moose now, so that rules it out
05:07 Alias We've found Moose to be essentially undebuggable
05:07 edenc the model/view layers are some 10 lines of code each
05:07 Alias We have one small backend driver API written in it
05:08 Alias And that will probably get replaces in a few years time
05:08 Alias Once that subsystem doesn't need to talk to multiple backends any more
05:08 edenc weird, I live and die by Moose
05:08 Alias edenc: How do you deal with the perl debugger and moose code?
05:08 edenc but then again, I've hacked the meta-layer more than once so I know the ins and outs
05:09 edenc Alias: you mean when it hits the XS layer?
05:09 Alias I'd be fine with Moose if you could actually step through Moose code in the debugger
05:09 Alias I mean in that large area between the API and the XS layer
05:09 Alias Lots of blank code-genned lines and random infrastructure stuff
05:10 edenc yeah, the point behind moose is that you rarely have to walk through that area
05:10 Alias Unless you do...
05:10 edenc why
05:10 Alias Because you want to step into a BUILD ?
05:10 Alias And watch how a complex object is being initiated, beyond the actual Moose bits
05:11 Alias And we have a lot of very complex business logic
05:11 Alias So that happens a lot
05:11 Alias So much that we're basically too scared to roll it out across the rest of the codebase haven't tried it out in one small corner
05:11 edenc can't you install a break point on BUILD?
05:11 Alias If you know it's going there in advance...
05:12 Alias Don't you ever just walk through code exploring what it's doing?"
05:12 edenc if you have a BUILD, it'll always be invoked, regardless
05:12 edenc if it doesn't, you've found a bug in Moose
05:13 edenc yeah, I explore code quite often
05:13 edenc that's how I ended up hacking reaction/catalyst/dbic
05:13 sri minimalist: there will be multiple tiers i guess based on ec2 tiers
05:13 * Alias nods
05:13 Alias sri: And fractions of ec2 machines
05:14 Alias sri: He's got sub-partitioning somehow
05:14 Alias sri: You really should help with the Padre Mojo plugin
05:14 sri busy with mongodb atm
05:14 sri writing a pure perl driver for it
05:14 Alias sri: Because if I'm reading this right, you could make a Mojo + Phenoma integration
05:14 Alias IDE one-button deploy
05:15 Alias Might talk to the Phenoma guys, more in their interest to make it work I think
05:15 sri depending on how phenona deployment works we'll have a command for it
05:15 sri ./myapp.pl phenona --user ... --pass ... or so
05:16 sri deployment from the ide sounds interesting too though
05:18 sri in the end you prolly just have to map a key combo to a command line call
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05:26 sri i expect that phenona will use the dotcloud or heroku deployment technique
05:27 sri heroku is deployment with git push, dotcloud with a custom upload command that just copies over directories recursively
05:41 minimalist does the code of a waypoint get executed even if it's not an end point?
05:43 sri nope
05:43 sri that's the point of it
05:45 minimalist what should I use instead?
05:45 sri bridges
05:46 minimalist bridge doesn't seem to be available as an endpoint
05:46 * sri doesn't follow
05:47 minimalist something.com/bridge returns 404
05:47 minimalist something.com/bridge/foo returns content (if routed)
05:56 crab good morning.
05:56 purl For you maybe.
05:59 crab minimalist: what are you trying to do?
06:00 crab it's necessary to decide clearly up front what you want when trying to design bridged routes.
06:01 minimalist I have this route /abc which renders something
06:01 minimalist but I also have these routes /abs/view, /abc/edit, /abc/delete
06:02 minimalist I want to stuff the stash with vars at /abc that will be available for it's children
06:04 minimalist sorry for all the grammar and typos ... I hope it makes sense
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06:12 sri i think you want a bridge without path and two normal routes with diferent paths below it
06:12 sri no need to build something complicated
06:13 minimalist ok
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07:03 perlrocks Twitter: "Don't forget to sign up for the private beta of phenona, the heroku-like cloud hosting service for #perl. http://t.co/SkVUval #mojolicious" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/45016684062445568
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07:38 Christian moin
07:40 marcus sri: do you know who's behind phenona?
07:43 sri yes, you can even google it
07:44 sri http://twitter.com/#!/dkulchenko
07:51 marcus he's 15!
07:51 marcus http://daniil.kulchenko.com/
07:51 sri hehe, yea
07:52 sri i was shocked at first too, but he seems to be able to pull it off
07:52 marcus how can you be 15 and have 6 years of experience with perl? :-o
07:53 sri his father is a perl hacker or so
07:53 marcus aha
07:53 marcus Guess I'd better start training Eva
07:53 sri former co-worker of miyagawa
07:54 sri you better should!
07:55 marcus yeah, she's two already. Time to learn programming.
08:00 sri what the hell
08:00 sri there are spammers now rewriting my tweet
08:00 marcus :o
08:00 marcus sri: omega wants file:// support in mojolicious
08:00 sri what for?
08:00 purl for fun.
08:01 marcus perl -Mojo -le'print g("file:///foo.json")->res->json->{bar}'
08:01 sri well, i guess it would be trivial
08:01 omega marcus is stretching the the truth, what I want is my $json = read_json('json.js');
08:01 sri since you could reuse Mojo::Asset::File to do all the hard work
08:02 omega but file: support sounds nice anyhow
08:02 sri oh
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08:02 marcus my solution is much more generic tho :) Would let us leverage ->dom as well.
08:03 omega as none of the JSON-modules om cpan seems to let me just read in a file
08:03 sri my problem with fule support is windows -.-
08:03 sri *file
08:03 marcus :'(
08:03 sri well, i wouldn't reject a patch if it had nice tests
08:04 sri and of course works on windows
08:05 sri but marcus owes us some other features already if i remember right ;p
08:06 marcus json error line numbers?
08:07 sri indeed
08:21 sri hmm, file support would be like 5 lines of code
08:38 sri but it wouldn't be very elegant
08:39 sri "mojo get" for example wouldn't work, since it depends on http streaming
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09:24 GitHub96 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * d91a64a (1 files in 1 dirs): link to fanshop again - http://bit.ly/hjYGrW
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09:24 sri :)
09:24 sri http://kraih.spreadshirt.net # reopened
09:30 perlrocks Twitter: "The #perl 5 raptor shirts are back on sale, enjoy! :) http://t.co/xLQGuFG http://t.co/IEWGrP8 #mojolicious" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/45053832023121921
09:34 sri the print quality is supposed to be even better now
09:36 sri they call it flock print
09:36 marcus how appropriate
09:40 marcus sri: heh
09:40 marcus shipping costs - up to 24.89 - 4 euro 24.90 - 7,90
09:41 sri Oo
09:41 marcus will be a pretty expensive tshirt :p
09:41 sri make sure you're in the european store
09:41 marcus I'd probably have to pay VAT as well.
09:41 marcus I am in the european store
09:41 marcus http://kraih.spreadshirt.de/s​hop/info/shipping/Popup/Show
09:42 sri the price of beauty :D
09:42 sri get 3 shirts then ;p
09:42 sri no wait, germany
09:43 sri get 50
09:44 sri maybe delivering to the fjords of norway is harder
09:44 moritz marcus: once in while (like every half a year) spreadshirt has a "free shipment" weekend
09:44 marcus guess I'll wait for that
09:45 marcus or just print some of my own :p
09:45 sri are there better print shops for norway?
09:45 marcus guess that'd be hard with the low res pngs sri provide tho
09:46 sri i can make high res ones, no problem
09:46 marcus well, cafe pres is certainly much cheaper, but I think the quality sucks.
09:46 marcus cafepress even
09:46 sri yea
09:47 sri i have a hoodie with flex print already from spreadshirt, great quality
09:47 sri looking forward to another one with flock print
09:48 sri it's about as good as shirts you'd buy in a shop
09:48 marcus http://www.spreadshirt.no/​herrer-t-skjorter-C4410P24
09:49 sri Oo
09:51 marcus somehow those shirts are cheaper.
09:51 sri my login doesn't work there either
09:51 marcus http://kraih.spreadshirt.no/ works tho
09:51 sri how weird
09:52 sri and it's cheaper too?
09:52 marcus yeah
09:52 marcus no
09:53 marcus and still shows prices in euro
09:58 sri wow, the C bson parser is really fast
09:59 sri about 20 times faster than pure perl
09:59 sri similar to JSON::XS if i rember right
10:00 sri *+e
10:01 sri usability wise my parser wins though :)
10:01 sri doc(foo => 'bar', baz => int32(123));
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10:05 marcus nice
10:07 sri considering that mongodb handles about 10k rps on a single box with average hardware the parser should still be fast enough
10:08 tardisx I want to have a route "go" one of two ways depending on the user agent. The example gets me halfway there, but if the user agent condition does not pass I get a 404.
10:08 tardisx I want to make the 'fail' condition go to a different controller / action
10:08 tardisx is that possible from the route?
10:08 sri conditions are routing time, like a path that doesn't match
10:10 sri you just make two equal routes with different conditions
10:10 tardisx ok that's what I thought but it didn't seem to work... I'll experiment
10:10 tardisx thanks
10:10 sri well, it has tests ;p
10:11 tardisx they aren't truly identical, because part of the point of this is "if agent is a scraper, render this faux page otherwise go through and do my full session thing"
10:17 sri thinkpads have windows buttons these days? :O
10:19 marcus :D
10:26 tardisx can you please tell me if this should work or if I need to rethink this: http://pastebin.com/cvJ3P2gY ?
10:27 sri umm
10:27 sri there is no condition
10:29 sri so no, it should not work at all
10:29 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojol​icious/Guides/Routing#Conditions
10:29 tardisx ah right so I need to build it into the route
10:29 tardisx for both
10:30 tardisx via an over
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10:30 tardisx or more to the point, with my example, once a bridge has failed it is game over for route processing
10:30 tardisx 404
10:32 sri your code runs after routes are finished
10:32 tardisx right
10:33 tardisx so.... seems I really have three states - 'happy real person who is logged in', 'a real person who needs to be redirected to the auth page', 'an evil scraper'
10:34 tardisx so if I can make that 'redirect?' decision in the route I can do all three
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12:09 jawnsy sri: ah, sweet, you rock sir :-)
12:18 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious-Plugin-SassRenderer 0.01 by BYRON - http://frepan.org/~byron/Mojoli​cious-Plugin-SassRenderer-0.01/" --cpan_new http://twitter.com/cpan_ne​w/status/45096050893127680
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12:47 weestrom hmm... reconsidering my cygwin choice now that ive had to do some complex disk pathing with it... thinking activestate since its well supported in my shop
12:48 weestrom xml::simple does a bangup job reading a gigantic 33 MB "database implemented on xml" as the maintainer of the other tool describes the DOM
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12:50 sri 33 mb xml does not sound very sane
12:51 moritz that's what you get when you use a markup language where a serialzation format would be appropriate
12:51 marcus need sax parser
12:52 sri yea
12:52 weestrom NOT my choice, thats why THIS tool is getting implemented, w a mysql backend
12:52 weestrom data analytics as an excuse to rescue our data :)
12:52 sri sax parsers are not much fun to use
12:52 weestrom its a very detailed dom at least
12:53 sri Mojo::DOM actually uses a sax-ish parser internally
12:53 marcus sri: we do a lot of sax parsing in our iphone apps
12:53 marcus it's a huge win when working under heavy memory constraints
12:53 sri but fun?
12:53 purl You know, you have to make your own fun. or KISS THE CHICKEN!
12:54 * sri kisses purl
12:54 * purl swoons!
12:54 marcus not really :)
12:54 marcus it ends up a bunch of if/else/elseif clauses
12:55 weestrom ack. i really love local db slices to handle that crap!
12:56 weestrom i do enough crap like that in embedded code, i do web dev stuff to have a real computer at my disposal
13:08 perlrocks Twitter: "Shaggydelic Mojolicious" --Spuzzies http://twitter.com/Spuzzie​s/status/45108693376835586
13:09 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious-Plugin-SassRenderer 0.02 by BYRON - http://frepan.org/~byron/Mojoli​cious-Plugin-SassRenderer-0.02/" --cpan_new http://twitter.com/cpan_ne​w/status/45108756694052865
13:17 Hammit I feel kinda chuffed...my first cpan module is a mojo one
13:18 Hammit cheers for the suggestion sri. wasn't so scary after all :)
13:18 sri \o/
13:18 Hammit now comes the litmus test...can i install and use it with cpan
13:18 * Hammit heads off to try
13:19 sri will take a bit to hit the mirrors
13:19 Hammit oh...well, maybe tomorrow then
13:20 Hammit getting late...night
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13:21 weestrom well, now to design my db (backwards from ginormous xml blob...), sigh
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15:25 perlrocks Twitter: "@kraih Mojolicious::Lite really kick ass!" --pac_man http://twitter.com/pac_man​/status/45143036753223680
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15:39 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious Web Framework - Join the Perl revolution! http://t.co/WY0CZZW" --purinkle http://twitter.com/purinkl​e/status/45146749949579264
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15:50 Christian cu all
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16:04 GitHub62 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 4be739b (3 files in 2 dirs): cleanup - http://bit.ly/feIzKS
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16:43 perlrocks Twitter: "I can't get enough of the mojo. Thanks #mojolicious http://mojolicious.org/ #perl" --jamiepopkin http://twitter.com/jamiepopk​in/status/45162716377260032
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18:03 fish_ can i place other data then 'files' into the __DATA__ section of a mojolicious::lite app?
18:03 sri be more specific
18:05 fish_ i have some markdown text i want to embedded there and render later. my idea was to just put it there, read it into a var, convert it with text::markdown and than pass it to $self->render(..)
18:06 sri no you can't
18:06 sri or actually you could with a custom parser... but that's not worth it
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22:30 perlrocks Twitter: "mojo - Mojolicious: Perl Duct Tape For The HTML5 Web! http://bit.ly/gvMUtq" --github_pl http://twitter.com/github_p​l/status/45250153862529024
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23:21 tempire anyone have a centos init script for  hypnotoad?
23:22 tempire ready made, so I don't have to think?
23:22 tempire go go gadget crowd source
23:24 tardisx lazywebfail
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