Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-04-05

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03:14 sri moritz: there are full async examples
03:15 sri moritz: anyway, you probably shouldn't do async
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06:21 marcus I can't take it, I can't take it no more.
06:21 marcus sri: it's funny how you've turned from 'Async is awesome', to 'Dont do async'.
06:22 sri marcus: people are not ready for async yet!
06:23 marcus sri: well, they have to deal with it in javascript :)
06:23 marcus I do lots of async in obj-c
06:23 sri then *you* are ready
06:24 marcus sri: it's hard, but the end result can be so worth it.
06:25 sri see, you even know the tradeoffs
06:25 sri normal perl hackers don't though
06:26 marcus !tweet "You want the async? You can't *handle* the async!"
06:26 marcus hmm, what happened to perlrocks?
06:26 sri it doesn't tweet anymore
06:26 sri just follows
06:26 marcus and all the old tweets are gone
06:27 sri didn't get used enough to make it worth the effort
06:28 sri you are the first to try it in months ;p
06:29 moritz sri: why shouldn't I do async?
06:30 marcus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=​5j2F4VcBmeo&feature=related
06:30 moritz sri: and the only async examples I've seen are related to web sockets, not normal requests
06:30 marcus moritz: to do async, just add a callback.
06:30 marcus moritz: but it will take you outside the security nets
06:30 moritz in what way?
06:31 marcus moritz: the callback will be processed outside the normal request handling, so you'll have to use render_later, and render from your callback.
06:31 marcus also, it won't work in non-daemon servers
06:32 moritz so far I'm talking about clients
06:32 marcus moritz: clients not running inside a web request?
06:33 moritz marcus: for now, yes
06:33 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojo/UserAgent#get
06:33 sri example right there
06:33 marcus moritz: what do you hope to gain by using async?
06:34 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc?Mojolic​ious/Guides/Cookbook#Non2DBlocking
06:34 sri big ass real world example there
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06:34 Christian morning
06:34 * sri waves
06:35 moritz why did I miss those?
06:35 * marcus nods
06:35 sri marcus question is a good one though
06:35 moritz marcus: for example multiplexed requests
06:36 marcus moritz: "communicates two or more signals over a common channel" ?
06:36 marcus do you mean parallell requests?
06:36 marcus -l
06:36 moritz yes
06:36 sri i guess the second example is exactly what you want
06:37 marcus mm
06:39 sri but it all comes down to those mini examples in Mojo::UserAgent
06:39 sri (use callbacks and control the ioloop yourself)
06:41 moritz what happens if I don't control the ioloop myself?
06:42 sri nothing (literally)
06:42 moritz so it hangs?
06:42 sri it won't even start
06:42 marcus requests doesnt fire
06:43 moritz and if I don't call IOLoop->stop, the execution doesn't resume after the IOLoop->start call?
06:44 sri infinite loop
06:44 purl see infinite regress
06:44 sri Mojo::IOLoop is a normal event loop
06:45 sri the whole thing is a bit easier in Mojolicious apps because the http daemon is controlling the event loop for you
06:45 sri but like marcus said, the tradeoffs are different ones there
06:58 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Rimmer333 Hi, Mojolicious. ;) As well as any Plack-based frameworks. Not to mention the Catalyst." (ru) --su_bzero http://twitter.com/su_bzer​o/status/55162448281468928
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07:33 perlrocks Twitter: "New blog post, a missing raptor and the #mojolicious user experience, enjoy. ;) http://t.co/4UdDWYb #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/55171179346018304
07:34 sri :)
07:34 sri lots of pretty pictures
07:47 marcus u can haz retweet
07:48 sri \o/
07:48 arpadszasz nice designs sri++
07:53 sri :)
07:56 marc very nice!
08:05 sri damn... whats up with reddit again?
08:05 sri i keep hitting 502 errors when commenting
08:06 marcus time to switch to HN
08:06 marcus :)
08:07 sri dunno, perl posts seem so lost there
08:08 marc not shiny enough?
08:08 marcus I think not obscure enough
08:09 marc most HN stuff these days seems to be "i started a startup.ly -- check it out!"
08:10 sri haha
08:11 marcus http://sites.inka.de/bigred/devel/tcp-tcp.html
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08:13 sri http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXZMZ-XvvzI
08:15 marcus not enough annotations
08:15 stephan48 HN?
08:15 purl HN is Hacker News (http://news.ycombinator.com)
08:15 marcus btw, google chrome search engine configuration is awesome
08:18 marcus sri: seems reddit is shitting itself, got a 502 while trying to log in
08:19 sri reddit is such a big screwup...
08:19 marcus python ftw?
08:19 sri don't they have like only one programmer left or so?
08:20 marcus should have kept the lisp codebase.
08:20 marcus :)
08:24 moritz reddit's biggest problem is that the amazon storage backend is unreliable
08:25 sri that's what they say
08:25 moritz (at least that's what the reddit and ex-reddit folks say)
08:25 sri in reality i think it is just lack of money
08:27 marcus aren't they owned by wired?
08:27 sri they sold reddit before they even had a strategy for making any money, now nobody cares to find one and the parent company just gives them less and less cash
08:27 sri i bet it all comes down to lack of motivation
08:28 sri but somehow all these social news sites are struggling
08:28 sri slashdot, digg, reddit... all not healthy
08:29 stephan48 social news are not wanted.
08:29 * marcus starts an asocial news site
08:29 marcus fuckyounews.com?
08:29 marcus damn, taken
08:35 moritz terrornews.org is free :-)
08:36 sri http://hackerne.ws/item?id=2410165 # upvote!
08:36 perlrocks Twitter: "A missing raptor and the Mojolicious user experience (Perl):  http://bit.ly/fkqzkf" --hnfirehose http://twitter.com/hnfireho​se/status/55187140740526080
08:37 sri oh, that's convenient
08:55 sri http://twitter.com/#!/redditstatus # wtf
08:55 sri march 30 :o
08:58 marcus lulz
08:58 marcus https://github.com/DanielWaterworth/raphters :D
08:59 sri seen it earlier :D
08:59 sri something like that could actually be fun with Go
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09:07 GitHub77 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 7935f1a (2 files in 2 dirs): better example - http://bit.ly/fToAgL
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09:56 kvorg hi guys
09:57 kvorg i have painted myself in a corner where i need to understand async/nonblocking a bit better, perhaps someone can shed some light
09:57 kvorg its a simple matter, really, if i knew how
09:58 kvorg i have a data model which can take a long time to produce results, and has an async/non blocking api
09:58 kvorg one needs to call a function which will return the data so far or undef when the query is finished
09:59 kvorg what i need is a hint to plug this in with Mojolicious correcty, so that the IOLoop will call my function periodically and i will be able to call a callback when all the data is collected
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10:00 kvorg sri: btw, i replaced the top-part of the original model with one written with Mojo::Base: it is 50% the size, several times faster and fun to work with.
10:00 kvorg i love Mojo::Base \o/
10:03 sri kvorg: i suppose you would use a recurring timer for that
10:03 kvorg yes, if i knew how, exactly
10:03 sri perldoc Mojo::IOLoop
10:04 sri well, this is about as advanced as it gets
10:04 sri don't expect any of this to be easy
10:05 kvorg been there, got a bit confused, and realised it would be difficult, so i wanted to know at least if i am barking up the right tree
10:05 sri you are
10:05 sri setting a 0 timer repeatedly should do what you want
10:07 kvorg hm, what exactly does a 0 timer do? start the function at any available time?
10:07 sri yes
10:07 * kvorg is happy
10:08 sri there is also a more advanced option, but i'm not sure i should tell you
10:08 kvorg please don't
10:08 sri :)
10:08 marcus :D
10:08 kvorg if i do this right and write a blog entry or something, perhaps you can submit the advanced option
10:09 kvorg i am quite aware how easy it is to get users to shoot themselves, and then come back complaining to the channel
10:10 kvorg just one last question: what is then proper way to stop the timer?
10:10 kvorg something like my $id = $loop->timer(0 => sub {my $self = shift; word; $self->drop($id) if finished});
10:10 kvorg or did i just kill my IOLoop?
10:11 sri timers fire only once
10:11 kvorg aaah, makes sense
10:11 moritz you need to install a new one at the end of the callback
10:11 sri exactly
10:12 sri the more advanced option would work like your example -.-
10:14 kvorg i don't mind restarting timers, comsindering the work being done on the backend, that is hardly noticeable
10:20 sri it's also teh safest option
10:21 sri if something goes wrong the timer just gets lost
10:22 sri hmm, at some point we'll have to make people more aware of the async possibilities
10:23 sri i'm just not sure how to explain it best
10:23 sri rethinking program flow takes some getting used to
10:23 sri javascript really has an advantage there -.-
10:28 kvorg i think a combination of longer explanations (blogs, books) and numerous simple examples is the only way
10:29 kvorg people feel safer when everything is explained, even thinks that should be obvious and do not belong in the documentation
10:29 kvorg and then they know where to turn where parroting the examples goes wrong
10:29 kvorg after many mishaps, things go forward
10:30 kvorg so i promise to produce something out of this if i get it to work
10:30 stephan48 what do you use as engine for your blogs btw?
10:41 kvorg ahh, that is painful.
10:41 kvorg i was playing with vti's thingy, but it got overcomplicated and it not maitained anymore.
10:41 kvorg also, i like to write in POD and have some strange extended POD that can do images and sidebars and whatnot
10:42 kvorg it seems I will be forced to take an old version of Bootylicious, add a renderer and go B-)
10:42 kvorg i can't abode with php blogs ...
10:45 sri stephan48: posterous
10:45 purl i heard posterous was good for low frequent posters.
10:48 marc posterous is great
10:48 marc it'd be nice to have better markdown support in the editor though
10:48 sri kinda tempted to move to tumblr though
10:48 marc as it stands, i write and preview everthing locally then paste or email
10:48 marc sri: yeah?
10:48 purl totally!
10:49 sri what purl said
10:49 marc heh. i love posterous' gist integration
10:49 marc that's why a chose it
10:49 marc simple and nice for providing inline snippets
10:49 sri true
10:49 marc so -- why tumblr?
10:49 sri everybody is there
10:50 sri i like the twitter feel of tumblr
10:51 marc i see
10:52 sri i guess i would really miss gists though :/
10:52 marc i'd imagine there are similar solutions for other platforms
10:53 marc or if you have full control over the template, you could include one of the javascript highlighters
11:06 kvorg hmm, but us retentive types need to run our own solution on our own server 0_o
11:07 kvorg also , i still think in time Mojolicious should have a complete stack of easy to use and pluggable example|reusable apps for blogs, news, mailinglists (though) VC, galleries etc.
11:07 kvorg that would be a nice pool of demos and building bricks for bigger sites
11:07 kvorg so when someone finds themselves writing one of those, they should think about reusability
11:07 sri i think you would need a higher level framework for that
11:08 sri something like drupal built on mojolicious
11:08 kvorg i think mojolicious would be a nice framework to build somethink like that
11:08 sri especially with the upcoming pure perl mongodb driver
11:08 kvorg :-D
11:09 marc kvorg: well, i can point my domain to posterous; good enough for me
11:09 marc (actually, a subdomain)
11:09 kvorg the thing is, all those things are really interesting when they are reusable in the sense that when you are building a site that does specific things, it is easy to add needed components
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11:10 kvorg but a copule of glue apis would be needed also, auth/autz etc.
11:13 sri you want a basic cms as foundation
11:13 * kvorg nods vigorously.
11:14 kvorg but you want to be able to use the same functionality i.e. for comments on pages, blog posts, images and news items
11:14 kvorg and you want to be able to treat galleries as asset collections for images in other components etc.
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13:43 sri hmm
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14:42 sri http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/povodokus/ # lol
14:46 Christian :D
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14:51 Christian nice evening to you all
14:52 * sri waves
14:55 * tempire WAVES VIGOROUSLY, WHILE JUMPING UP AND DOWN AND UP AND DOWN AND UP AND DOWN
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15:17 sri \o
15:17 sri o/
15:17 sri \o/
15:20 marc ha ha
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16:07 janus Mojo::UserAgent seems to have issues in detect_proxy() -- if i setup the proxies manually it works
16:08 janus dumping after detect shows that the leading http:// is missing
16:09 sri bad env var?
16:09 janus defined bad - i've used the same content
16:09 janus s,ed,e,
16:09 sri bad = without leading http://
16:10 janus no, its correct and otherwise working with other tools
16:10 sri well, there are good tests, so i'm quite confident detection works
16:12 janus will investigate later - first need to get the job done :)
16:13 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blo​b/master/t/mojo/user_agent.t#L26
16:14 janus argh, stupid op - sorry for the noise
16:14 sri :)
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16:29 perlrocks Twitter: ""Now Pearl is a framework of frameworks - Mojolicious. It's so cool that Rails sucks nerve in hand ..." - Http://bit.ly/fwrNoj" (ru) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55305998092603393
16:30 sri heh, sounds almost japanese :)
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17:30 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito Mojolicious Try and test your faith;)" (ru) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55321490333249537
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17:46 perlrocks Twitter: "@ @ Fuksito koorchik perldoc Mojolicious:: Lite" (ca) --antonfin http://twitter.com/antonfi​n/status/55325563757408256
17:48 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito @ koorchik you have not understood in the Mojo can not do that, but the syntax of perl to do this allows" (ru) --antonfin http://twitter.com/antonfi​n/status/55325938501697536
17:55 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito on Rowthorn # mojolicious-variant: $ r-> get ('/ bye') -> to ('foo # bye');" (ru) --ykorshak http://twitter.com/ykorsha​k/status/55327671579705344
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18:26 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito's usual syntax Mojolicious - $ r-> get ('/ bye') -> to ('foo # bye');" (ru) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55335552756613120
18:36 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito Mojolicious has conceptual integrity, harmonious and easy. And at the same time - no magic! :)" (ru) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55337955128127488
18:38 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito community Mojolicious now the second largest after the Catalyst, and this is just a few months after the stable release:)" (ru) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55338428300148736
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19:08 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Antonfin Note that the "little docks" is already in the past. Now Mojolicious has very good documentation, not for nothing did they grant received:)" (ru) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55346170154852353
19:12 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito Ease framework. Mojolicious not fall on you with all my weight, when you need to do something non-standard:)" (ru) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55347053106184192
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19:19 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito Neuzhto application of ROR eshte proshte? ;) Use Mojolicious:: Lite; get "/" => sub {shift-> render_text ("Hello, Fuskito")}; app-> start;" (bg) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55348858217177088
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19:30 alnewkirk-away sri, thanx
19:58 sri heh, what did i do? :)
20:01 alnewkirk-away created Mojo silly :)
20:01 sri \o/
20:01 alnewkirk-away .so available for registration
20:01 alnewkirk-away idontthink.so
20:05 sri neat
20:07 sri already taken ;p
20:08 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito I understand that it's like to go with Dancer in the Mojolicious:). That is sinatra - just a single framework." (ru) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55361145401384961
20:17 alnewkirk-away ^^ huh?
20:19 sri russian comes about as bad out of google translate as japanese
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20:34 perlrocks Twitter: "@ Fuksito If not Mojolicious, then I probably would have migrated to the rails. I think that within a year Mojolicious will go level with ROR:)" (ru) --koorchik http://twitter.com/koorchi​k/status/55367801543733249
20:35 sri that's the plan :)
20:36 sri i'd like to have the first perl framework to get full stack right
20:36 alnewkirk-away sri, if so, i want in on the DBI team
20:37 sri i'm going mongodb exclusive first
20:37 sri but the higher level pieces should work for all
20:39 alnewkirk-away i want in
20:40 sri sure, the process will be gradually after the basic mongodb driver is done
20:41 alnewkirk-away mongodb is awesome
20:41 sri ideally all higher level features can be developed as separate plugins
20:41 alnewkirk-away memory is the nw disk
20:41 alnewkirk-away higher level features?
20:42 sri first plugin is pure perl driver, next one will be an orm on top
20:42 sri validation could be a third
20:42 sri and so on
20:42 alnewkirk-away i like
20:44 alnewkirk-away i plan to play with Mojolicious::Plugin::Authentication very soon
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21:26 alnewkirk-away sri, have you seen ORMesque?
21:27 perlrocks Twitter: "Trying out the examples in http://mojolicio.us/perldoc​?Mojolicious/Guides/Growing #perl #mojolicious" --mrmuskrat http://twitter.com/mrmuskra​t/status/55381173324627968
21:28 alnewkirk-away is now known as alnewkirk
21:36 perlrocks Twitter: "Had to alter one of the commands: ./myapp.pl get -v /?user=sri&pass=secr3t didn't work until I quoted the URL. #mojolicious #perl" --mrmuskrat http://twitter.com/mrmuskra​t/status/55383401481506816
22:03 perlrocks Twitter: "Finished growing guide. Nice flow. Found myself running tests after each change which pointed out my typos. @kraih ++ #mojolicious #perl" --mrmuskrat http://twitter.com/mrmuskra​t/status/55390179158003712
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