Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-05-08

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Time Nick Message
00:18 DaTa ok, tomorrow i'm going to install 8.1
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04:16 perlrocks Twitter: "Log::Any::Adapter::Mojo 0.03 (Freeware): Log::Any::Adapter::Mojo is a Perl module and a Log::Any adapter that us... http://bit.ly/mpli9Y" --Softepic http://twitter.com/Softepi​c/status/67080379521187840
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05:22 perlrocks Twitter: "1.22 Mojolicious http://ow.ly/1cxXIk" (sw) --campuscodi http://twitter.com/campusco​di/status/67097066005999616
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08:14 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious Web Framework http://goo.gl/fb/N98fF #bookmark" --stonedbovines http://twitter.com/stonedbovi​nes/status/67140358307463168
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10:22 * sri yawns
10:27 * janus warns
10:27 janus well, at least one test does...
10:27 janus -    return $self unless my $fd = fileno $handle;
10:27 janus +    return $self unless $handle and my $fd = fileno $handle;
10:28 sri i know, that's not a fix though
10:29 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious-Plugin-ContentManagement 0.013 by MEMOWE - http://frepan.org/~memowe/Mojolicio​us-Plugin-ContentManagement-0.013/" --cpan_new http://twitter.com/cpan_ne​w/status/67174290117763072
10:29 sri $handle should not be undef, in this specific case your change might even hide a leak
10:30 sri if you want it gone you'll have to track it down ;p
10:31 sri it's most likely something magical about IO::Socket::SSL
10:32 sri in fact, i expect a IO::Socket::SSL bug to be responsible
10:39 janus mhm, bugs
10:39 sri the warning seems gone with the latest IO::Socket::SSL version
10:40 janus ah, there was something to check...
10:40 janus syncing stuff first
10:41 sri there is nothing in Changes, but the warning is gone for me
10:42 janus btw. i've adapted the ioloop timer concept for client js - works quite well so far :)
10:44 janus dynamically adjusting the timeout to keep ticks stable though
10:45 janus ... at least for low performance client necessary, but so far did not apply to mojo
10:48 janus in fact, as clean as mojos code is... translating to different languages is very tempting ;)
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11:01 PerlNinja janus: nodejolicious? :P
11:05 sri heh
11:05 * sri is melting
11:08 PerlNinja oh?
11:19 sri sri -> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wtIcdW-7iU8/​TP53gtehp-I/AAAAAAAABqI/YRwz85zL0_s/s1​600/Melted%2BSnowman%2BCookie%2B3.JPG
11:31 janus warning gone now... p5-IO-Socket-SSL-1.37->p5-IO-Socket-SSL-1.39: ok
11:35 sri it prolly even leaked file descriptors
11:35 sri maybe we should bump the requirement again
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11:51 DaTa sri: it fails on 8.1, but not on 8.2. i guess they fixed something :)
11:59 sri DaTa: weird
11:59 sri can we check for 8.2+ somehow?
11:59 sri to enable the test on newer versions?
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12:03 DaTa qx(sysctl kern.osreldate) >= 802000 i guess
12:03 sri eww
12:04 DaTa if you want to log in give me a public key :)
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12:04 GitHub136 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 1386e8b (1 files in 1 dirs): WebSockets work fine with FreeBSD 8.2 - http://bit.ly/kuwwzc
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12:07 DaTa well, according to cpantesters 7.x works fine too. it looks like they broke something in 8.0 and fixed it in 8.2
12:10 DaTa bbl
12:11 sri hmm, not sure i really want to investigate anymore... :S
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12:14 GitHub1 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 8b3352e (1 files in 1 dirs): seems only FreeBSD 8.0 and 8.1 cause problems - http://bit.ly/mTJbOp
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15:21 sri damn you tiny wings!
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15:21 sri so close to x28...
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15:50 tempire sri: I trust you've had thoughts regarding automating the deployment to dotcloud
15:51 tempire like "mojo deploy dotcloud"
15:59 sri tempire: i don't think the command line interface will be the problem with dotcloud
15:59 sri people will have serious trouble getting the dotcloud tool installed
16:00 tempire due to...?
16:00 sri it being a python module
16:00 tempire worked alright for me...but I have it installed via homebrew
16:01 sri same, but i don't want to talk someone through the process
16:01 sri especially not a windows user
16:01 tempire oh windows
16:02 sri if you think a deploy command would be a good idea go ahead and make a plugin :D
16:02 sri if it becomes popular we'll add it to the core, as usual
16:02 tempire That's a plan.  There's also the ec2 deploy command
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16:04 Alias sri: You went to 5.10?
16:05 sri Alias: ?
16:05 Alias http://rassie.org/archives/378
16:05 sri wow...
16:06 tempire "without even saying why this was necessary
16:06 sri seriously... this has been discussed open on the mailing list the whole time
16:06 tempire sounds like a job for a blog post
16:06 Alias Who the hell wants to be on yet another mailing list
16:06 sri i wanted to blog about it, but it would be too much of a rant
16:07 Alias You don't put it in a blog, you put it in Changes
16:07 sri http://groups.google.com/group/mojolicio​us/browse_thread/thread/510dcf2219371deb
16:07 Alias "Deprecated 5.08, because XXXXXX"
16:07 sri it has been discussed
16:07 Alias So put the summary in Changes
16:07 tempire you didn't post an announcement for 1.3, you could just include it as a side note in that post
16:07 sri the mailing list is the main communication channel for these things
16:07 Alias It hasn't been discussed in front of the people who are having to deal with the situation
16:08 Alias The only place they can reliably see is Changes
16:08 Alias The majority of people don't read blogs and aren't on mailing lists
16:08 Alias If I've learned one thing from Strawberry it's that it doesn't matter how often and where you say anything, because most people won't hear it
16:08 tempire Alias: I think the people who blog are likely to read the ironman list
16:09 Alias tempire: The people who have some random small Mojo web app that just bumped into a deprecation
16:09 Alias I don't care about people that blog
16:09 Alias They are a vanishing small percentage of people
16:09 * tempire is vanishing
16:09 sri this is pissing me off so badly... why are perl people such jerks about innovation....
16:10 tempire *poof*
16:10 tempire sri, just do what you always do.  use it as an opportunity for marketing
16:10 Alias sri: You're the one that introduced the no deps thing specifically so that it would be maximally compatible
16:10 Alias You position Mojo for compatibility
16:10 Alias As a specific feature
16:10 sri tempire: i'm on semi vacation... there won't be much coming from me atm
16:10 Alias And now it's much less compatibile than it used to be
16:11 Alias In my case, we're still almost universally on RHEL5
16:11 Alias Which means no Perl 5.10
16:11 Alias Which means no Mojo
16:11 sri Alias: did you read the list thread?
16:11 Alias Hells no
16:11 Alias I have no idea where the list even is
16:11 sri end of discussion then
16:11 Alias Just saying, put it in Changes
16:11 Alias Or freaking LINK the thread in Changes
16:11 sri release is done, too late
16:12 Alias Put it in Changes so it's there when the next release comes out
16:12 sri btw. i even linked the thread above...
16:13 Alias Odd logic
16:13 sri ?
16:13 Alias Because people stuck on 5.8 are at risk of denial of service, you are going to deny them service?
16:13 sri did you read it all?
16:15 Alias Nothing else in that thread disagrees with that summary
16:15 sri last post
16:15 purl i think last post is like: M::Post->search( { "where thread->{forum} matches current forum", { rows => 1}) kinda
16:15 sri summary: it is not going away, we will just tell you that you are making a mistake
16:16 Alias oh wow, you warn on load?
16:16 sri that's the whole change for the forseeable future
16:16 Alias I suppose nobody REALLY uses CGI
16:16 Alias Because you just introduced a denial of service attack on CGI :)
16:17 Alias You can flood the log partition
16:17 Alias And overflow it
16:18 Alias Anyways, thanks for clarifying "deprecation" and not "removal"
16:18 sri well, not much a difference if you're using 5.8 ;p
16:18 Alias Might want to change the wording for later
16:18 Alias Overflowing disk is a big deal
16:18 Alias It's why I never use warnings in web code
16:18 sri things go wrong all the time
16:18 Alias Bed time for me though
16:18 Alias Night
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16:22 sri fuck it... i'm reverting the 5.8 deprecation...
16:24 tempire I'm ambivalent.
16:24 tempire I feel strongly about both directions.
16:24 sri this is becoming a competitive disadvantage for us, even if it would be the right thing to do
16:25 tempire makes sense
16:25 purl makes sense is http://xrl.us/bjq3kq
16:25 sri i'll add an FAQ entry for why Perl 5.8 is a bad idea
16:25 tempire chromatic is going to yell at you
16:25 sri chromatic should make another big framework do the 5.10 switch first then
16:35 tempire regarding https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/137
16:36 tempire all that needs to be done is to use Mojolicious::Renderer to get the templates, right?
16:36 sri nope
16:36 sri see comment
16:36 sri renderer needs a serious update
16:37 sri the change is much harder than it looks
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16:43 GitHub120 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 47c4a95 (3 files in 3 dirs): reverted deprecation of Perl 5.8 support, by popular demand - http://bit.ly/iBHcnE
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16:43 sri that means we are pretty much trapped with perl 5.8
16:44 sri somehow doubt other projects will be brave enough to attempt it again anytime soon
16:44 tempire I say we try it every 6 months.
16:45 tempire And when it's presented, provide a download link on the website for a tagged 5.8-compatible version of mojo.  (whatever the last release was before the change)
16:46 tempire so, at the very least, there's an answer to the naysayers
16:46 tempire "we have a download available for people who aren't concerned about security, and just want it to work"
16:47 tempire if it's presented as, "the latest features/fixes require modern software", and not "you can't use this anymore", it might go over better.
16:48 tempire "but we haven't forgotten you, there's a solution for everyone with mojolicious"
16:49 tempire maybe miyagawa could write a song about it, and play his guitar.
16:49 tempire marcus could make an inappropriate comment
16:49 tempire chansen and alias will complain
16:49 tempire it will be a big party
16:50 tempire regarding the mojo::renderer thing...I don't see the 'much harder change'
16:50 tempire if you give me a direction, I'll see what I can do.
16:51 sri wait
16:52 sri miyagawa sings and plays guitar?
16:52 marcus sri: i am disappoint!
16:52 sri marcus: blog it!
16:52 purl <rss="http://www.hazelnco.com/cgi-bin/leisuretown">
16:52 tempire I saw a picture somewhere of him on stage.
16:53 tempire http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-​Perl-Mongers/members/2124986/photos/
16:53 tempire I can dance.  Marcus, what can you do?
16:54 sri he's good at complaining :)
16:54 * sri hides under desk
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16:55 GitHub111 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * d235496 (1 files in 1 dirs): release preparations - http://bit.ly/jksJP3
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17:01 * marcus writes a blog post about the cowardly mojolicious revolution.
17:01 marcus confirming to the fears of the perl underbelly
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17:01 marcus or something
17:01 crab so what's all this about competitive disadvantages?
17:01 perlrocks Twitter: "Released #mojolicious 1.31, reverting the deprecation of #perl 5.8.x support (see FAQ entry). http://t.co/P25plUn http://t.co/j6LPdW6" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/67273026684727297
17:02 tempire crab: people potentially choosing something other than mojolicious because of FUD about deprecating 5.8 support
17:02 sri yea
17:03 crab shouldn't the 5.8.x warning stay in place, though, even if it doesn't say mojo support for it is deprecated?
17:03 crab i mean, it's not like it was done on some whim.
17:04 sri it frightens people
17:04 sri people don't seem to like that
17:04 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious 1.31 by KRAIH - http://frepan.org/~kraih/Mojolicious-1.31/" --cpan_new http://twitter.com/cpan_ne​w/status/67273672242630656
17:05 sri but i think the faq entry brings the point across
17:05 tempire I don't think this is a complete failure.  the more it's talked about, the better
17:08 sri true, but it might also scare other cpan authors
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17:12 miyagawa tempire: i play bass, not guitar
17:13 miyagawa :)
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17:15 perlrocks Twitter: "#mojolicious #perl 5.8 deprecation discussion made me dream about statically linked toolchain+web shell to upload+compile new perls+XS code." --arpadszasz http://twitter.com/arpadsza​sz/status/67276454752288768
17:17 crab i never understood the difference between bass and guitar.
17:21 minimalist Hey sri, did you make any recent changes to Mojo::JSON? All of a sudden a zero value gets encoded to string "0".
17:22 crab it's probably a "0" to begin with.
17:22 minimalist nope
17:22 minimalist $self->render_json({ success => 0 }) becomes { success : "0" }
17:22 sri minimalist: got proof?
17:23 sri perl -MMojo::JSON -E'say Mojo::JSON->new->encode([0])'
17:23 sri that works flawless
17:23 minimalist let me write a quick test
17:23 sri perl -MMojo::JSON -E'say Mojo::JSON->new->encode({success => 0})'
17:23 sri that one too
17:25 sri perl -Mojo -E'a("/" => {json => {success => 0}})->start' get /
17:25 sri same
17:25 minimalist oh!
17:26 minimalist it looks like it might be a Chrome issue
17:26 minimalist fact is that {success => 0} turns into {success : "0"} and the only fix is {succes => Mojo::JSON->false}
17:27 sri that's not even remotely similar
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17:28 sri anyway, i think you have a client side problem
17:28 minimalist yes, thanks for your help
17:30 sri reminds me to make the mongodb driver 5.12 only -.-
17:30 sri maybe even 5.14 *eg*
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17:33 crab how's the mongodb driver going?
17:33 crab (just idle curiosity)
17:33 sri can't spend as much time on it as would like, but it's coming along nicely
17:34 sri *+i
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17:39 sri on the plus side, sri finally beat marcus at tiny wings! :)
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17:47 perlrocks Twitter: "I don't regret trying to deprecate #perl 5.8 support in #mojolicious, but the thought that 10 years is still not enough scares me a little." --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/67284538103054336
17:49 moritz what is 10 years old?
17:49 sri perl 5.8
17:49 * moritz confused
17:49 purl You won't be after this episode of Soap!
17:49 moritz sri: it's not
17:49 sri well, almost
17:49 moritz it's not even 9 years old
17:49 sri "almost"
17:49 purl "almost" is the longest word in the English language with all the letters in alphabetical order.
17:52 sri heck, i was still young when it was released!!!
17:52 sri CGI.pm was still cool!
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17:53 * moritz heard about perl the first time around 2002
17:56 sri perl6 was only 2 years in development!
17:57 sri perl people still believed in "next christmas"
17:58 sri oh wait, i misquoted that i think
17:58 sri but i'm sure there's a joke somewhere
17:58 moritz they thought that "christmas" meant "next christmas"
17:58 * sri nods
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19:35 trone I'm writing a sub to create the db_handler in a Mojolicious::Lite script, and when I call the script it warn "Subroutine db_conn redefined ..." (but all works). What I'm missing?
19:40 sri no warnings 'redefine';?
19:42 trone sri: :) yes, this erase the warning. Indeed I would understand why perl say that I redefine the sub... I believe to define it just one time...
19:42 sri it's --reload
19:43 trone arrrr.
19:43 trone sri++ # !
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20:13 GitHub125 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 18813b9 (4 files in 4 dirs): improved reloading slightly by allowing it to clean up the main namespace - http://bit.ly/kIFHLd
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20:14 sri trone: that will make the warning go away without code changes
20:14 sri but it needs testing, there could be side effects
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