Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-05-10

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02:22 perlrocks Twitter: "I deploy the hello world with the mojolicious dotcloud. piece of cake!" (gl) --pac_man http://twitter.com/pac_man​/status/67776594298683392
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06:02 Christian morning
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08:07 perlrocks Twitter: "Architecture - this is important. Why is that # mojolicious makes action string eval. and then another, and the closure, we can only learn from the code?" (ru) --meettya http://twitter.com/meettya​/status/67863200393199616
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08:11 marcus sri is leet on github - http://github.backtype.com/profile?username=kraih
08:21 perlrocks Twitter: "Yahhu! If localized aspect, everything works like clockwork. # Aspect & # mojolicious - peace, friendship and chewing gum!" (ru) --meettya http://twitter.com/meettya​/status/67866922573766657
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09:09 sri marcus: woot!
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09:16 sri oh noes... microsoft bought skype :o
09:17 moritz first Novell's patent, then Nokia, now skype
09:18 moritz and I was so >.< close to ignoring MS, and just being happy on linux
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10:49 * sri yawns
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11:08 * marty waves
11:19 * marcus shaves
11:27 * PerlNinja craves
11:37 * moritz particles
11:37 purl it has been said that particles is fine
11:38 moritz purl: forget particles
11:38 purl moritz: I forgot particles
11:39 PerlNinja what does particling look like anyway?
11:39 PerlNinja if you say twilight sparklies i'm going to murder you in your sleep :P
11:39 PerlNinja with a blunt spork! :D
11:41 moritz PerlNinja: I'm a phycicist. When somebody waves, I particle, just to hold up the symmetry
11:42 marty moritz: lol
11:42 * PerlNinja approves of this
11:42 PerlNinja what if someone anti-particles though?
11:43 marty Then we all collapse into a singularity.
11:47 moritz PerlNinja: there'll be enough energy for new waves. And particles.
11:48 * PerlNinja waves
11:48 PerlNinja physics seem fun :D
11:48 moritz PerlNinja: and in the quantum world, particles (and thus waves) are indistinguishables for each other, so you can even say that the new particle is "the same", whatever that means
11:48 moritz s/for/from/
11:49 moritz physics is fun, but (IMHO) harder than programming
11:50 marty Unless, of course, you are programming physics.  :p
11:53 moritz then it's still harder than programming without the pysics part :-)
11:53 PerlNinja or quantum computers become widespread in which case the truly geeky will study physics just to understand how it actually works
11:54 moritz we had many more physics students taking CS classes without problems than the other way round
11:56 moritz though of course programming and CS aren't homogeneous fields either
11:56 moritz and there are topics I would fear to attack
11:56 moritz like voice recognition
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13:10 GitHub166 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * 5c18827 (6 files in 5 dirs): added experimental name support for template exceptions - http://bit.ly/mKPtOS
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13:10 sri moritz: think you'll like this one
13:11 moritz \o
13:11 moritz /
13:11 moritz will look into once I get home and hacking again (might be tomorrow)
13:11 sri it's prolly not foolproof but should work most of the time :)
13:12 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/5c188​278e336f8c72f689df5b392711c2d3fd9e2#L6R761
13:12 sri those test results show pretty much how it works
13:13 moritz that does look nice
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13:25 perlrocks Twitter: "This should make template debugging a lot more fun in #mojolicious, get testing! :) http://t.co/qey6Xyf #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/67943341966364672
13:29 elb0w I should learn to write tests
13:38 sri you should
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13:39 GitHub120 mojo: master Sebastian Riedel * b6c497f (12 files in 5 dirs): documented debug environment variables - http://bit.ly/jny1DO
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13:57 sri hmm, wonder if rss is really dead
13:57 metaperl dead in general?
13:57 metaperl atom has taken over?
13:58 metaperl what do you mean?
13:58 moritz it's not dead
13:58 moritz I use it and I produce it
13:58 moritz s/use/consume/
13:58 moritz so it can't be dead
13:58 moritz it's as simple as that
13:58 crab it should be stabbed repeatedly until it dies.
13:58 sri it's going through the news sites atm, twitter and facebook silently deactivated rss feeds and nobody noticed
13:59 metaperl I like rss and feedmyinbox.com
13:59 sri and thinking about it... i get most of my news from twitter these days
13:59 moritz crab: RSS and IRC suffer from similar conceptual problems (you can't really declare what content type/encoding you send), and both are still quite usable
14:00 metaperl I dont use twitter. I dont understand it
14:00 tempire You won't understand twitter until you use it
14:00 tempire I use rss for google reader
14:00 * sri nods
14:00 tempire chromatic's 5.8/5.10 post about 2018 really puts the whole thing in perspective.
14:00 sri i suppose rss was never popular in the mainstream
14:01 tempire What we need is rpm/deb support for perlbrew
14:01 moritz and cpanminus, when you're at it
14:01 tempire something to avoid the hour long compile
14:01 tempire and the multi-step install procedure
14:01 tempire it's too complicated for n00bs
14:01 sri the javascript people seem to be working on binary modules for their cpan clone
14:02 sri npm
14:02 tempire hmm
14:02 metaperl what we need is a better build system than Cons and Perl BUild System, the latter seems ok, but I cant get the author to put it under public source control (yet he takes patches)
14:02 metaperl I think "waf" is what I would have to use (python-based)
14:03 tempire the binary build system that's a decent idea.  especially if perlbrew had a command to compile and build the binary package for that platform
14:03 tempire and then upload it to a github repo
14:03 tempire we'd have binary distributions for everything in existence within hours
14:03 moritz that's so totally not perlbrew's task
14:04 tempire whatever.  it could be app::perlcolate
14:05 yko hmm. is output wrong or right: perl -Mojo -e 'print a->url_for("/?x=1;2") . "\n"'
14:06 sri ";" is actually an alternative to "="
14:06 metaperl i thoguht it was an alternative to &
14:06 sri ops, right
14:07 metaperl lol
14:07 yko :)
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14:08 crab tempire: url? (5.8/5.10 blog post)
14:09 tempire crab: http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2011​/05/2018-is-the-year-of-perl-510.html
14:09 tempire you should use google reader to track the ironman list
14:09 tempire you could use rss :)
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14:20 moritz if people want to use an enterprise-supported perl, how can they want to use non-enterprise-supported perl modules?
14:21 tempire moritz: logic and enterprise are rarely related
14:22 trcjr tempire: isn't that the truth.
14:22 * moritz can live with non-logic enterprise people sticking to old versions of my modules
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14:27 alnewkirk sri, ... id like to be on the secret team of developers working on the ORM :}
14:28 metaperl hi alnewkirk
14:28 alnewkirk hi
14:28 purl hello, alnewkirk.
14:28 PerlNinja oO wait there's a secret ORM cabal? :P
14:28 alnewkirk metaperl ... i have one of those
14:28 metaperl I liked ormesque until the docs got to the part about joining objects in perl
14:28 alnewkirk PerlNinja, .... not anymore  i guess :)
14:29 alnewkirk metaperl, what about it? you no like?
14:29 metaperl this part - http://search.cpan.org/~awncorp/ORM​esque-1.103630/lib/ORMesque.pm#join
14:29 sri alnewkirk: there is no cabal!
14:29 metaperl """The join method "Does Not Execute Any SQL", in-fact the join method is meant to be called after the desired resultsets have be gathered. The join method is merely an aggregator of result sets."""
14:30 metaperl so each resultset is limited to a table?
14:30 alnewkirk metaperl, exactly
14:30 alnewkirk that was by design
14:30 metaperl similar to SQLObject in Python
14:31 metaperl but I think that's inefficient... Basically when I look at new DBIx::* offerings, I ask what they offer me over DBIx::Simple/SQL::Interp and Rose::DB::Object
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14:32 alnewkirk i dont know SQLObject but I tend to agree that having your ORM perform joins ... meh
14:32 metaperl but joins are a programmatic necessity
14:32 alnewkirk most popular DBs support the concept of views
14:32 alnewkirk create a view, use the view resultset
14:32 PerlNinja joins are also a pain in the ass to do right from an ORM point of view
14:32 purl okay, PerlNinja.
14:32 metaperl i like that idea
14:33 alnewkirk PerlNinja,
14:33 alnewkirk PerlNinja++
14:33 metaperl alnewkirk++
14:33 alnewkirk maybe i should add that to the docs
14:33 PerlNinja what alnewkirk said, (++ also), create a view, and do a resultset for that, it also lets you optimise the join the way you want, and if need be you could even re-do the entire view as long as it's output stays the same
14:34 PerlNinja plus the benefits of materialised views and so on and so forth
14:34 alnewkirk most people in the perl community think i write shit code anyway ..., i just look at things differently :)
14:34 metaperl alnewkirk - yes do add that to the docs .... provide a constructive solution to the obvious problem
14:34 metaperl well Oogly wasnt an improvement on Data::FormValidator or Validator::Custom, but I did like ORMesque until I saw the point about joins
14:36 metaperl alnewkirk - if the repo were listed in the docs, I would supply a patch, but I dont see one (yet another thing to add)
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14:37 alnewkirk metaperl, Oogly was succeeded by Validation::Class which is not tied to any particular usage like FormValidator
14:37 metaperl PerlNinja - I think RDBO does joins pretty well - http://search.cpan.org/~jsiracusa/Rose-DB-Object-0​.778/lib/Rose/DB/Object/Tutorial.pod#Foreign_keys
14:37 alnewkirk metaperl, sorry, https://github.com/alnewkirk/ORMesque
14:38 alnewkirk sri, I just would like to have input on the API
14:38 alnewkirk ... I am warming up to DBIx::Class but the API still sucks ass IMHO
14:38 metaperl alnewkirk - warm up to Rose::DB::Object and forget DBIC :)
14:39 PerlNinja metaperl: RDBO does do them decently but it has it's own peculiarities
14:39 sri alnewkirk: i'm not working on an orm, just a odm, and that's only in the planning stage
14:39 PerlNinja similar to DBIx::Class (which sucks at joining, if you ask me), which also has it's own set of peculiarities to get used to
14:39 metaperl sri  what is an "odm"
14:40 sri object document mapper
14:40 metaperl I tried to make it easy to learn an ORM in Perl by writing DBIx::Cookbook - http://search.cpan.org/~tbone/DBIx-Cookbook-0.07/
14:40 PerlNinja I still prefer my good old method of using DBI/MongoDB, taking a hashref, wrapping that inside an object that deals with adding the required logic without having to define anything for fields/tables and so on
14:42 metaperl oh my god, no! POD and Perl interspersed - https://github.com/metaperl/ORMe​sque/blob/master/lib/ORMesque.pm
14:42 metaperl (grin)
14:42 metaperl but I'm getting onto the patches now. dont worrry
14:43 PerlNinja metaperl, what's wrong with that? :P
14:43 metaperl heh PerlNinja nonthing - just a pref
14:43 metaperl hey where is the author =head1 tag in here - https://github.com/metaperl/ORMe​sque/blob/master/lib/ORMesque.pm
14:43 metaperl maybe it came from the Makefile.PL somehow
14:44 metaperl oh this is a Dist::Zilla distro
14:44 metaperl sorry to talk out loud... I better take this elsewhere
14:44 PerlNinja Dist::Zilla will do it for you yeah
14:44 PerlNinja hahaha
14:44 PerlNinja i don't think you're the only one who does that :P
14:46 alnewkirk PerlNinja, NoSQL is getting big for obvious reasons
14:46 alnewkirk although I still havent seen an exmaple of big heavy relational data being handled .... well
14:47 PerlNinja alnewkirk, that's because NoSQL databases are pretty much document oriented, so relational data doesn't really go in very well
14:47 sri the point is you remodel your data to fit into a nosql database
14:48 PerlNinja what I did was basically keep the main things as documents, and the bits they used to relate to (tags, comments, etc.) are now part of the actual document that describes one object
14:48 alnewkirk sri, i understand .... (or do i), i guess i have to change my way of thinking
14:48 alnewkirk ... maybe by looking at an example
14:49 PerlNinja having good experience with SQL does mean it's easier to figure out what does need to be separate ;)
14:49 sri most webapps fit very very well into mongodb
14:49 alnewkirk PerlNinja, ... im good at SQL :)
14:49 PerlNinja easiest example i can think of
14:50 PerlNinja is: twitter api. grab a timeline, and that output can literally go 1:1 into a nosql database
14:50 PerlNinja and still be easy to query, and even easier to generate fun stats out of
14:50 moritz if I'm No good in SQL, does that make me good in NoSQL?
14:50 alnewkirk PerlNinja, so to select distinct tags for a document, you have to loop through all documents?
14:51 PerlNinja no
14:51 PerlNinja well.. srta
14:51 alnewkirk ... or when creating do you save tags seperately, and as part of the doc
14:51 PerlNinja map/reduce
14:51 purl map/reduce is fun
14:51 PerlNinja which will loop through all documents unless you tell it to restrict the set it runs on by a query first
14:52 PerlNinja tags is just an array of words inside the document that's been tagged :)
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14:52 alnewkirk right, just seems in a SQL db its more efficient
14:52 PerlNinja most nosql databases are clever enough to see that when you index the field it needs to index the array, and when querying that you're basically asking "is 'foo' in this array or not"
14:53 sri you can have a secondary index on the tags
14:53 sri it will take a bit more space, but at the same time you get easy auto-sharding for documents
14:53 alnewkirk okay, i see
14:55 sri and the whole thing is schema-less
14:55 sri so you can just add new features any time
14:56 alnewkirk sri, make me think, "how hard it would be to add scheme-less-ness to an ORM"
14:56 alnewkirk basically (if the attribute doesnt exist, ... update table add column ..)
14:56 metaperl """ if I'm No good in SQL, does that make me good in NoSQL?""" - lol  @ moritz
14:57 metaperl I dont like the fact that you dont have relational integrity guaranteed in your NOSQL datastore ...
14:57 alnewkirk NoSQL drawback, all reporting has to be custom-code for now :(
14:57 PerlNinja metaperl: that's why every NoSQL database pretty much tells you that if you want to use it for stuff that requires relational integrity: don't :P
14:57 metaperl alnewkirk I think there are layers on hadoop, etc for reporting?
14:58 metaperl thank god MySQL beat NOSQL out the door
14:58 metaperl or all those php scripts would've been done in nosql
14:58 PerlNinja MySQL sucks :P
14:59 * PerlNinja cringes
14:59 alnewkirk PerlNinja, as a mainly webapp dev, I havent found a good reason to hate it yet, ... and im not much of a band-wagon guy
15:00 tempire rdbms is the devil
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15:01 tempire map reduce is the future
15:01 alnewkirk .... also, we like saying auto-sharding
15:01 moritz dieing is the future
15:01 PerlNinja alnewkirk: i'm also mainly a webapp guy, but mysql sucks donkey nuts .. it did at 3.2, still sucked at 4.x, and only at 5.x were they implementing features that Postgresql already had for years... I'm a Pg fanboi :P
15:01 moritz of all of us
15:01 alnewkirk reminds me of transformers
15:01 alnewkirk "get the shard"
15:01 PerlNinja moritz: speak for yourself, I intend to live forever
15:01 tempire postgres is an ugly name.
15:02 PerlNinja ugly name but sexy where it counts
15:02 tempire mysql was named after a cute little girl
15:02 moritz PerlNinja: have fun, when the sun has gone out you're just a shivering bit of flesh
15:02 alnewkirk i never liked how it has a seperate cli for common functions
15:02 * PerlNinja also dislikes the way most people pronounce SQL .. it's an acronym people, so you pronounce each letter separately ..My-Ess-Kjoo-Ell .... not My-sequel
15:03 tempire seriously.
15:03 purl I'm totally freaking serious.
15:03 PerlNinja moritz: I'm assuming by that time the human race (or what's left of it) will be able to handle colonising other planets ... I'll be good :P
15:03 tempire we'll colonize with map reduce
15:04 tempire because rdbms isn't planet-scale
15:04 alnewkirk people will learn to auto-shard themselves
15:05 PerlNinja hope i don't shard my dangly bits :/
15:09 metaperl alnewkirk I submitted one patch request and have another ready to go
15:10 alnewkirk merging now
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15:20 alnewkirk sri, i'd like to help out on that ODM, if you have a concept you can pastebin Im interested in seeing the direction
15:20 alnewkirk metaperl, changes have been merged
15:21 metaperl hooray
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18:50 sri https://github.com/languages/Perl # heh, we have passed rakudo in the most watched list =)
18:53 sri ans we are still super-green on cpantesters, yay
18:53 sri http://www.cpantesters.org​/distro/M/Mojolicious.html
18:53 sri s/s/d/
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