Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-06-26

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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03:37 xantus[] futurama \o/
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05:07 tempire hmm
05:07 tempire regarding the dsl gist
05:07 tempire did no one on the list respond?
05:09 tempire I wouldn't even call it evil
05:10 tempire I don't see many folk call custom routines without parens, but there's no reason not to.
05:10 tempire I do it whenever possible
05:12 xantus[] I read the post, but I'm still thinking about it
05:17 tempire It's not all that big of a deal, really.  The question is whether it would confuse people.
05:17 tempire It *could* just be an option that people could use, mentioned in the corner of the docs somewhere
05:17 tempire though it might cause confusion
05:17 tempire I guess that's the biggest potential issue.
05:19 tempire I officially am ok with it.
05:19 tempire it's not like the rest of perldom isn't being drawn toward magic
05:19 * tempire smells a moose
05:20 tempire assuming there's no unintended side effects of using the singleton controller
05:21 tempire it's kind of the next step in the helper evolution, given that you once had to type $self->helper->myhelper
05:23 tempire This marks the first and likely only time in history in which I wish I used windows
05:23 tempire http://www.instantelevatormus​ic.com/nyan-cat-progress-bar
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06:12 xantus[] hmm, how do I know in my mounted app..that it's mounted
06:44 sri tempire: lol
06:44 sri xantus[]: exists stash->{path} i guess
06:46 sri tempire: there seem to be no side effects btw. and the code is a lot cleaner if handled in core
06:47 sri big question is if we added lite hepers, how would we document them
06:49 sri maybe we could add them as an experimental feature for a release to see how it works out
07:00 sri there is also a problem though
07:00 sri helpers would have to be loaded at sompile time
07:00 sri s/s/c/
07:35 sri or they would need () to be recognized as sub calls
08:21 sri hmm, compile time requirement sucks
08:24 sri we could work around it by allowing plugins to be loaded via "use"
08:24 sri but "helper foo => sub {};" will never allow "foo 'lalalala';"
08:25 sri the closest we could get is "foo('lalalala')"
08:25 sri which is not very elegant
08:26 sri you would always have to wrap helper calls in BEGIN {}
08:27 jamesw you could split it into two pieces, a part that lists the subs at compile time and then you can modify the bodies at run time
08:27 sri but we don't know them at compile time
08:27 sri that's the whole problem
08:28 sri helper and plugin are executed at runtime
08:29 jamesw yeah, you're stuck with BEGIN blocks or use / import
08:30 sri and foo('lalala') only works if we use AUTOLOAD
08:30 sri (without BEGIN)
08:34 sri too bad
08:34 jamesw well you can put that into the symbol table at least
08:34 sri ?
08:35 sri empty AUTOLOAD?
08:37 sri or a real AUTOLOAD?
08:37 sri whole thing is rather evil :S
08:37 jamesw %package::{foo} = sub {};
08:38 jamesw erm $package even
08:38 sri but we don't know all helpers at the time
08:38 sri perl will die before all are loaded
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08:39 sri only thing we could do is export all known helpers at compile time and provide AUTOLOAD for the rest
08:40 sri which would mean compile time helpers look like "foo 'bar';" and runtime helpers like "foo('bar');"
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08:46 sri not sure if that's acceptable usability wise
08:49 sri ooh
08:49 sri it's yapc::na tomorrow, and i was wondering why this weekend was exceptionally silent :)
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09:46 perlrocks Twitter: "Running Django, Rails and Mojolicious on Windows Server 2008 with ... http://bit.ly/lJtvyN" --Anissaiilcg http://twitter.com/Anissaiil​cg/status/84920422000361473
09:46 perlrocks Twitter: "Running Django, Rails and Mojolicious on Windows Server 2008 with ... http://bit.ly/kwQ7ic" --Natashiaspkxh http://twitter.com/Natashiasp​kxh/status/84920422608547841
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10:01 sri hmm
10:01 sri have it all working in core now with unit tests
10:01 sri there seems to be no side effects
10:01 sri just the compile time requirement makes it a bit annoying
10:03 sri runtime helpers work but require ()
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10:10 cjs What kind of route would I use when I want to check a number of things like database up, logged in, session parameters, database paramters? Or is there anther way to do something like that?
10:11 cjs I have been using Mojolicious::Lite until now and want to grow my applications. I am not sure whether I am understand thing correctly.
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10:53 perlrocks Twitter: "Still unsure if #mojolicious should go all out with the domain specific language for lite apps. http://t.co/9hKyz2W #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/84937271228366848
10:59 crab cjs: what do you mean, "what kind of route"?
10:59 crab $r->route('/thingy')->to('mod​#that_prints_what_you_want')
11:15 sri he's already gone
11:26 crab good morning, sri.
11:27 * sri waves
11:27 sri crab: what's your opinion on the lite dsl?
11:28 * sri expects something conservative :)
11:29 crab eh, it looks pretty enough. i don't have much of an opinion because i've never really used lite.
11:29 sri oh, i see
11:29 sri actually i was counting on you for arguing against it :S
11:30 sri i guess it's a good sign
11:31 crab if i had actually moved an app from lite to full-fat(!), i might have a better idea if changing the code would prove painful.
11:31 sri it could really go both ways
11:32 sri easier dsl could make understanding the basics easier too
11:32 crab my preference, as you guessed correctly, would be to have generally same-looking code in both kinds of apps. but i have very little context to judge _specific_ changes in that area.
11:33 sri considering that the change has pretty much no side effects i guess we can just try it for a release or two and see
11:33 crab do i understand the implications of this dsl thing correctly? you can invoke any helper as thingy arg, blargh in a lite callback?
11:33 sri you do
11:33 crab plus some things like render?
11:34 sri render is a new helper too
11:34 crab ah
11:34 crab rather dancer-like syntax
11:35 sri i'd like to think of it as sinatra like
11:43 sri what's also neat, this change actually enables hybrid DSLs for controllers
11:44 sri in normal apps
11:44 sri since $Mojolicious::CONTROLLER always contains a localized controller singleton
11:45 crab example?
11:45 sri second
11:47 sri http://pastie.org/2124316
11:47 sri absolutely trivial now
11:48 sri much more lightweight than embedding applications
11:48 crab ah.
11:49 sri personally i don't like the "get '/something' => sub {...};" stuff in controllers
11:50 sri but that's of course also possible
11:52 crab btw, is it possible to write $r->post('/blah')->to(...) now? i forget
11:53 sri like forever
11:53 crab i thought you implemented... ah yes, it's there.
11:53 sri :)
11:57 sri if anyone wants to help, i need 3 new futurama quotes!
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12:31 sri Akron: see my recent tweets :)
12:32 sri think i remember you were the last one to ask for lite app dsl extensions
12:34 Akron My question was rather shortcut specific. I don't really use M::Lite that often.
12:34 sri S:
12:35 Akron I am wondering how this can't have side effects. ;)
12:36 sri it's quite funny how well it fits in
12:36 sri not a single test broke by adding it
12:36 sri i'm not even chaning existing ones, just adding new
12:37 sri *+g
12:38 Akron I have to say - although it's more magic than I like in Perl, it looks really cool.
12:38 sri that sums up the reactions so far pretty well :)
12:39 Akron :)
12:39 sri it's not really that much magic
12:39 sri just AUTOLOAD and exporter
12:40 sri compared to the old reloader it is laughable
12:44 perlrocks Twitter: "I'd like to hear something about @PerlDancer and Mojolicious at German Perl-Workshop. Anybody able to give a talk? @kraih?" --reneeb_perl http://twitter.com/reneeb_pe​rl/status/84965171642118144
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13:38 sri oh, another problem
13:38 purl hmmm... another problem is that pgp setup knowledge doesn't correspond that closely with
13:39 sri everything async leaves the scope of the localized controller
13:40 sri that could backfire badly
13:41 yko sri: are you going to visit any perl-workshop?
13:42 sri at some point i guess i will
13:43 yko i remember Sheldon Cooper constructed some kind of 'virtual body' to go to work
13:43 yko do you plan to do the same? :D
13:44 sri that does sound efficient
13:54 perlrocks Twitter: "“@kraih: Still unsure if #mojolicious should go all out with the DSL for lite apps. http://t.co/8x8QLsM #perl” dhh would be proud of you :-)" --henq http://twitter.com/henq/status/84982764235001856
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14:32 sri http://pastie.org/2124802 # is this a better example for mojolicious?
14:34 sri http://pastie.org/2124812 # old example for comparison
14:43 perlrocks Twitter: "Here's a real example for the new #mojolicious lite keywords, new vs old style. http://t.co/e3OsGlT http://t.co/JFBD7Wx #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/84995144629223424
14:45 sri i'm really undecided
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14:48 sri starting to get the feeling that it really just works well for hello world style apps
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15:03 tempire it would only work in lite?
15:03 sri yes
15:04 tempire so mojo inflate would break the app
15:04 sri nope, it only inflates templates
15:04 sri even in lite there are cases where it does not work
15:04 sri timer callbacks for example
15:05 sri or non-blocking ua callback
15:05 sri it's not foolproof
15:05 tempire that wanes my enthusiasm for it.
15:06 tempire just because of the potential confusion
15:06 sri on top of the BEGIN requirement for new helpers
15:06 tempire BEGIN is the devil
15:07 sri after playing with the new style it really feels inconsistent
15:07 sri anyone want the patch to try?
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15:22 sri would you actually use keywords in normal apps?
15:22 sri that's a lot easier
15:22 tempire I would use that syntax in normal apps
15:22 tempire but not if it required BEGIN
15:22 tempire or any unprettiness
15:22 sri there it wouldn't, since controllers are loaded later
15:23 sri tempire: you mean you would use http://pastie.org/2124316
15:23 tempire yeah that's neato mosquito
15:24 tempire and it looks good for showing mojo to non-perlrs
15:24 sri interesting
15:24 sri oh wait, that doesn't work ;p
15:25 sri or actually...
15:25 sri it would be unpredictable
15:25 sri since every helper would be imported into the namespac
15:25 sri +e
15:25 purl 2.71828182845905
15:29 sri http://pastie.org/2124316 # it would have to look like this i guess
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15:43 tempire ack
15:43 tempire well
15:44 tempire so normal subs would still work, but to use the magic helpers, you have to use "action" ?
15:44 tempire or some other equivalent keyword
15:45 sri nope, all would be action
15:45 tempire now it's starting to look like Mojolicious::Declare
15:45 sri yea, i don't like this direction at all :S
15:45 tempire might as well go the whole way and have "controller MyApp::Example"
15:45 moritz all action... sounds nasty
15:45 sri quite sure we will stick with what we have now ;p
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15:46 tempire I like it, personally.  I have problem with doing new cool things
15:46 tempire perl people need kicks in the pants
15:46 * tempire kicks
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15:46 tempire eck, have NO problem with doing new cool things, I mean.
15:47 tempire see?  That's what happens when you use perl for so long.
15:47 sri you can also use http://search.cpan.org/~audreyt/sel​fvars-0.32/lib/selfvars/autoload.pm
15:47 tempire you start to grow curmudgeonly regardless of your intentions.
15:47 tempire oh, your action keyword uses autoload?
15:47 sri nonono
15:48 tempire ok.  then I still like it
15:48 sri it is all pseudo code atm
15:48 tempire ah
15:48 sri actually i'm 99% sure i'm not going to add keywords
15:50 tempire people never seem to get that they should start with mojolicious::lite perldoc...I suggest you put a START HERE heading in mojolicio.us/perldoc above GUIDES
15:50 sri i did
15:50 sri recently updated :)
15:50 perlrocks Twitter: "Running Django, Rails and Mojolicious on Windows Server 2008 with ...: This will disable Django module in direct... http://bit.ly/kwQ7ic" --Pamellafubld http://twitter.com/Pamellafu​bld/status/85012179866226688
15:51 tempire live on site?
15:51 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc#TUTORIAL
15:52 tempire you're referring to it being part of the sentence.
15:52 sri next step will be "JUST FUCKING READ IT ALREADY!!!"
15:53 tempire I think it should be more prominent.  I don't always read sentences, I just to the first guide.
15:53 tempire not sure if everyone else works the same.
15:53 sri :S
15:53 tempire I only read when necessary.
15:53 sri IF YOU DON"T READ THE TUTORIAL I HATE YOU!
15:54 tempire I'll read tutorials, but not intros
15:54 tempire so I'd go straight to ::Routing and start reading
15:54 * tempire scampers
15:57 tempire does your latest vim color scheme look like the mojolicio.us code?
15:57 tempire You posted it a while ago, but I lost it
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15:59 sri it does
15:59 sri i gisted it i think
16:00 tempire can one view another's gists?
16:00 tempire oh, look at that
16:00 tempire not there
16:01 tempire must have been pastied
16:09 sri tempire: https://gist.github.com/1047738
16:09 sri gisted again
16:09 sri gui and 256 colors now
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16:31 tempire hmm.  it doesn't pick up the package name as orange for me
16:35 sri should be red-ish
16:36 tempire it's just white
16:36 tempire in macvim
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16:37 GitHub83 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/msN9Vv
16:37 GitHub83 [mojo/master] MOAR QUOTES! - Sebastian Riedel
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16:37 sri it works perfectly in my macvim
16:39 * tempire pouts
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16:40 GitHub147 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/ip1fkr
16:40 GitHub147 [mojo/master] updated helper documentation - Sebastian Riedel
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16:43 tempire http://bit.ly/j6iv2w
16:43 sri eeeeep
16:44 sri your font rendering looks horrible
16:45 sri ok, for use statements it is white here too
16:54 perlrocks Twitter: "Running Django, Rails and Mojolicious on Windows Server 2008 with ... http://bit.ly/iT4XyW" --Endaizhct http://twitter.com/Endaizhc​t/status/85028099305123840
16:54 perlrocks Twitter: "Running Django, Rails and Mojolicious on Windows Server 2008 with ... http://bit.ly/iT4XyW" --Deedeeytssg http://twitter.com/Deedeeyts​sg/status/85028138605748224
16:55 sri great, mojolicious targeted spam
16:56 tempire running with the big dogs
16:56 sri indeed
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17:16 sri hmm
17:16 * sri wonders if a shorter hello world example would be a good idea
17:17 sri "get '/' => {text => 'Hello World!'};" instead of the current "get '/' => sub { shift->render_text('Hello World!') };"
17:19 tempire lulz
17:19 tempire I didn't even know that would work
17:20 sri heh
17:20 sri stash goes to the auto renderer
17:20 tempire what's the target for the hello world?
17:20 tempire perl or non perl?
17:20 sri our website
17:20 tempire (people)
17:20 sri so both
17:24 tempire I'm in between.
17:25 tempire if you do that, you have to have a transitional statement saying how a sub usage is the same.
17:25 tempire so either way, they have to execute a clock cycle in their brains.
17:26 sri well, the website is just showing stuff that's possible
17:26 sri not teaching
17:26 tempire then do it
17:26 purl hmmm... then do it is a fish.
17:26 sri this would just be our canonical hello world example
17:27 sri and actually
17:27 sri we can have that transitional step
17:27 tempire I suspect many darkpan perl folk think shift is magic, so mvc n00bs might be better looking at {text =>} first
17:27 tempire mojo install in 39 seconds!
17:28 sri 14s here ;p
17:28 tempire how is that possible
17:28 tempire with tests?
17:28 sri HARNESS_OPTIONS=j5
17:28 tempire oh boo
17:28 tempire cheating
17:28 purl rumour has it cheating is Good. or not allowed for shootout benchmarks
17:28 sri :D
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17:29 tempire !
17:29 tempire real 14.92s
17:30 tempire that's just ridiculous.
17:30 tempire add 10 or 20 sleep 1's in there just to give everyone else a chance.
17:30 tempire sheesh
17:31 sri actually, that's exactly the reason you have 39 seconds without j5 ;p
17:31 sri tons of sleep and timers
17:32 sri almost 5800 tests now
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17:41 GitHub28 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/maFEfc
17:41 GitHub28 [mojo/master] better hello world examples - Sebastian Riedel
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17:46 GitHub78 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/mysdjH
17:46 GitHub78 [mojo/master] advertise installation time - Sebastian Riedel
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17:47 sri i want people to tell me if it takes more for them :)
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18:11 GitHub82 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/jkxkR7
18:11 GitHub82 [mojo/master] highlight tutorial - Sebastian Riedel
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18:12 sri tempire: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc#TUTORIAL
18:12 sri better?
18:19 taub ok im trying to liek ortient myself
18:19 taub orientate, mojo is like a cute and fun version of catalyst?
18:20 sri taub: that sums it up pretty well
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18:56 tempire yes, better
18:56 tempire sri++
18:59 taub ugh i'll just stick to mod_perl with html::template
18:59 taub i dont htink i need a full blown framework for this small thingy
18:59 taub just adding and removing some stuff in a db
18:59 tempire woah
18:59 tempire mod_perl is crazy huge
19:00 tempire going with what you know is fine
19:00 tempire but I think you're getting the wrong impression...mojo is pretty tiny
19:00 taub well yea
19:00 tempire "mojo generate lite_app mycoolappname" is all you need
19:03 taub will it be able to handle requests at the same speed like mod_perl?
19:03 taub guess I'll just have to try
19:04 sri aren't you using a database?
19:04 tempire there are too many facts involved in a system setup to say for sure, but it's like that it will be faster.  certainly faster to develop and understand, and a billionty times faster to deploy.
19:04 sri tempire++
19:05 taub ok hm
19:09 taub im pretty new to webdevelopment
19:09 tempire then you're in the right place
19:09 taub all i know is that mod_perl made me do 3000 db operations in 2 minutes, while old cgi took 20 :)
19:10 tempire cgi is definitely old school
19:10 tempire so is mod_perl, for this type of use
19:10 tempire cgi is 15+ years old school
19:10 tempire mod_perl is 8+ years old school
19:10 taub so compared to just plain cgi, can mojo give a speed increase, or uhgh so many stupid questions
19:11 taub does fastcgi appear inthe mix there somewhere
19:11 tempire yes, a definite speed increase
19:11 tempire you can actually use mod_perl, fastcgi, or cgi to deploy a mojo app
19:11 tempire but there's no reason to
19:11 tempire there's an alternative included development and production daemon that will blow the socks off of everything in ease of use
19:11 taub alright
19:12 tempire you don't really have to worry about that right now, though.
19:12 tempire just get your first lite app working
19:12 tempire and you'll be happy as a clam
19:12 sri wow, 3000 operations in 2 minutes is only 25 requests per second
19:12 tempire assuming clams are really happy
19:12 sri unless the limiting factor is your database i'm sure we can beat that :)
19:13 tempire and you're not asking stupid questions.
19:13 tempire you're welcome into the fold
19:13 tempire someone give the man a pie!
19:13 taub its running on fairly old hardware
19:13 * sri gives the man a pie
19:14 tempire wow.  free pie.
19:14 tempire can't beat that.
19:14 taub thanks o/
19:20 tempire sri, is morbo the official way to run in dev mode now?
19:20 sri ye
19:21 tempire then taub, once you've generated your lite app, you can run the development server with 'morbo mycoolapp'
19:21 taub I'll give it a try later
19:21 taub and tell you how fast those 3000 requests go through
19:22 sri just make sure to benchmark in production mode with a proper server
19:22 sri like hypnotoad
19:22 tempire morbo = development, hypnotoad = production
19:23 sri for example i have a minimal app here running at 600 rps that goes up to 1100 rps in production mode
19:23 taub nice
19:24 sri i'm quite sure you're actually going to hit the limit of your database and it will be the limiting factor
19:26 sri you might actually have hit it with mod_perl already, 25 rps sounds like a classic dataabse bottleneck
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19:35 tempire does bender have a full name?
19:45 sri of course
19:45 sri bender rodriguez
19:45 sri he's made in mexico
19:47 sri oh, looks like yko is becoming a xs ninja
19:48 yko after testing speed of different accessors (XS and PP) i decided that one day i'll write MojoX::Base::XS
19:48 yko maybe...
19:48 purl Maybe not.
19:48 yko purl++
19:49 yko that will be good for those crazy people who try to catch the wind
19:49 sri i see, looks like you're on the right training track then :)
19:50 yko actually all what i need is adopt Class::XSAccessor code in right way
19:50 yko and as user to put 'use MojoX::Base::XS' into beginning of script/myapp
19:51 sri funny you mention it, i once added XSAccessor to Mojo::Base
19:51 sri difference was not measureable
19:51 yko question is not to add xsaccessor somewhere
19:51 sri or barely
19:51 yko question is to replace whole Base code with C analog
19:52 sri haha
19:52 yko not so hard as you may imagine
19:52 sri with hand optimized x86 assembler inlined
19:53 yko :)
19:55 yko i'm thinking about it in context of article about accessors i plan to write
19:56 yko it would be interesting to investigate how speeding up accessors can affect speed of whole framework/application
19:56 yko but since i'm damn lazy crocodile that can take years
20:04 sri that is interesting
20:04 sri i still remember when we went crazy with accessors back in the days
20:05 sri using them for absolutely everything, including private _ attributes
20:05 taub <sri> i'm quite sure you're actually going to hit the limit of your database and it will be the limiting factor <- thats what i was thinking too
20:05 sri before we optimized Mojo::Base
20:06 sri gain was like 100% :)
20:06 taub how do you get past those 25 then?
20:06 taub better hw?
20:06 taub better db?
20:06 taub if that would be the bottleneck
20:06 sri taub: yes, db tuning, optimizing queries and the like
20:07 sri db slaves for read access
20:08 sri or even switch to a better database
20:09 moritz agressive caching
20:10 sri indeed
20:10 taub ok, well i guess i wont have to worry about hitting 25 too soon
20:10 sri personally i tend to just yell at the sysadmins
20:11 moritz if my site would get more than 25 hits/s, I'd be sooo happy
20:11 moritz and drooling all over my keyboard, making it impossible for me optimize anything
20:13 sri 65m per month
20:21 sri interesting, according to analytics the mojolicious site had around 500 regularly returning readers last week
20:22 sri didn't know analytics had metrics for loyalty
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20:49 tempire I just returned to mojolicio.us
20:49 tempire let's go for 501 this week!
20:51 sri \o/
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