Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-07-12

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:20 xantus[] xantus[], is huh?
00:20 xantus[] purl, xantus[], is huh
00:20 purl ...but xantus[], is a low-balled pay around 80K ?...
00:20 xantus[] purl, xantus[] is?
00:20 purl wish i knew, xantus[]
00:20 xantus[] purl, xantus is?
00:20 purl i don't know, xantus[]
00:20 xantus[] purl, xantus?
00:20 purl xantus is at http://xant.us/ or David Davis or your daddy or at http://xantus.tel/
00:20 xantus[] purl, forget xantus[],
00:20 purl xantus[]: I forgot xantus[],
00:21 xantus[] purl sometimes picks up things from conversations
00:21 purl xantus[]: sorry...
00:21 * xantus[] raises his hand to purl
00:25 sri botsnack
00:25 purl :)
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00:38 xantus[] does anyon have any g+ suggestions wrt gmail integration?  I have access to the google docs they are using to gather suggestions
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00:54 sri http://www.cpantesters.org/cpan/report​/ff7eca52-ab45-11e0-99d7-066e6976ff36
00:54 sri what the hell?
00:54 sri no matter how good your tests are... some perl will be broken enough to have them fail
00:56 tardisx one might opine that Scalar::Util without weaken is completely useless :-)
00:56 sri ye
00:56 sri guess 5.15 is broken atm
00:57 tardisx I don't really understand how the XS version could fail to be built given it's in core
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01:27 perlrocks Twitter: "/ Mojolicious reference to create a template block - http://t.co/OEQ9z2C Introduction to Perl with sample code # perl # mojolicious" (ja) --perlcodesample http://twitter.com/perlcodesa​mple/status/90593002518614016
01:27 perlrocks Twitter: "Create template block / Mojolicious Reference http://t.co/OEQ9z2C # perl # mojolicious" (ja) --perlcodesample http://twitter.com/perlcodesa​mple/status/90593123205525506
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02:01 xantus[] ChargeSmart is looking for Perl people with Catalyst/Dancer exp if anyone is interested.  Odd they didn't mention mojo...
02:03 perlrocks Twitter: "perlcodesample: / Mojolicious Reference http://bit.ly/p2f72r create a template block" (ja) --perlironman http://twitter.com/perlironm​an/status/90602109719937024
02:44 tempire I get the impression that dancer folk are of the same ilk as catalyst folk
02:45 tempire mojo is for people who always want something new
02:46 sri not really, dancer is more the continuation of cgi-app
02:48 tempire I suppose.  I don't really understand the draw of dancer.
02:48 tempire other than the metaphor
02:48 * tempire dances
02:49 Alias Template Toolkit
02:49 purl it has been said that Template Toolkit is looking surprisingly cool for a code/layout mixture... or perl -MCPAN -e 'install Template' or at http://www.template-toolkit.org/ or quite nice or NO NO NO the whole point is to NOT mix code and layout! or (for that we have mason!) or like PHP, but in Perl, with the syntax of Ruby or far superior to kd's mere mortal self or mocking me or currently making me very very cross
02:49 Alias ;)
02:49 sri the simplicity of cgi and promise not having to learn anything is quite appealing to a certain kind of perl programmers
02:50 Alias Look at PHP
02:50 tempire BUT IT HAS NO UNICORNS
02:50 sri it's a different tradeoff
02:52 * tempire trades cgi for incorrectly colored rainbows
02:52 tempire I need a new iOS game
02:52 sri we do attract some of those too with Mojolicious::Lite, but the focus has always been on programmers that know what they are doing and want to have fun while doing it
02:55 sri catalyst mostly lives from being the safe choice nobody ever gets fired for
02:56 tempire lulz
02:56 tempire So, Catalyst: The Microsoft of Perl?
02:57 sri having an established standard is good
02:59 * sri likes redefining standards
03:00 Alias And Cat scales more or less indefinitely
03:00 Alias And integrates to more or less anything
03:00 Alias It's a reasonable choice for big integrated corporate work
03:00 sri same for Mojolicious
03:00 Alias Although the Moose thing was a mistake
03:01 Alias It's basically impossible to debug cat any more
03:02 crab Alias; do tell more?
03:05 Alias If you get in the Perl debugger, and encounter any Moose code, generally you're going to end up down inside the guts of Moose code
03:06 * sri wonders if a core MOP would make that any better
03:06 Alias It would
03:06 Alias Mouse is much better
03:06 Alias Because it compiles much more of itself down to XS, there's no lines for the Perl debugger to stop on
03:07 Alias Same reason I use Class::XSAccessor most places
03:07 Alias It's both a) Fast, and b) Ignored by the debugger
03:07 crab does Moose cause any problems otherwise?
03:07 sri stevans proposal is really good
03:07 Alias I mean, it's big
03:07 sri https://github.com/stevan/p5-mop​/blob/master/proposal/p5-mop.md
03:08 Alias Padre continues to avoid Moose and discourage it strongly in plugins
03:08 Alias Padre's startup overhead is 20meg
03:08 Alias That's use Padre;
03:08 Alias And about 40 meg to get to the main window
03:08 Alias (Not including thread costs)
03:08 Alias Moose is another 15 on top of that
03:08 xantus[] people really get interested in mojo when I show them a simple lite app
03:08 Alias It's an extremely significant amount of memory
03:09 xantus[] and then show them what it can do with a few changes
03:09 Alias Ruby on Rails did the same thing
03:09 Alias You attract people by how easy the first hour of usage is
03:09 Alias Where that hour includes installation and education
03:09 Alias PHP Hello World was so easy to get working, that alone kept a lot of people using it
03:09 sri we've made great progress there
03:10 Alias sri: Notwithstanding removing 5.8 support :/
03:10 xantus[] I've even given someone portable strawberry perl and mojo in a pkg
03:10 Alias Or is that back again?
03:10 sri Alias: it's not removed
03:10 sri never was
03:10 Alias So what exactly did you change again? Sorry, memory shit atm, overloaded
03:10 sri just about everything
03:10 purl just about everything is rounded to 100mL, or sometimes to 250mL or variants on that. about as weird as we get is 375mL
03:11 Alias No, what was the flamyness about 5.10 ?
03:11 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/​FAQ#Why_is_using_Perl_52E82Ex_such_a_bad_idea3F
03:11 Alias ah, there it is
03:11 Alias - Reverted deprecation of Perl 5.8.x support, by popular demand.
03:11 Alias Righto
03:11 sri we now suggest 5.12 on the frontpage because it is maintained
03:12 Alias ++ from me on that one
03:12 Alias Yup
03:12 Alias I'm good with suggesting X and supporting Y
03:12 Alias Means I could run Mojo at work again
03:12 Alias Which I couldn't during the deprecation
03:12 Alias I empathise though
03:13 Alias I really wish I could use 5.12 regexs in Template::Tiny
03:13 Alias Would make it an order of magnitude faster
03:13 * sri hates hitting 5.8 bugs
03:13 Alias I've been tempted to do a currying implementation
03:13 sri so easy to segfault the regex engine
03:13 Alias Uses different regex on different versions of Perl
03:22 crab sri: btw, did you see http://toroid.org/ams/etc/mo​jolicious-static-resources? any suggestions?
03:32 sri crab: not yet, still busy with the ioloop rewrite
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04:22 crab "Could you will write any article (little manual) about sessions in Mojolicious, because the documentation is too poor"
04:22 crab sigh.
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04:52 sri heh
04:59 crab i think that's a case of someone expecting complexity and being surprised at finding none
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05:14 sri ye
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05:40 tardisx centos 6.0 has perl 5.10.1
05:40 tardisx I guess I should be grateful
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08:34 rhaen moin
08:34 crab hi rhaen.
08:34 rhaen well, well - ...
08:42 crab was it you who once gave me an nginx caching configuration?
08:49 rhaen don't think so. I am an apache guy.
08:49 rhaen :-)
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09:02 rhaen gnaaaa! How do I measure/test the loadtime of a webpage automatically?
09:02 rhaen I used Mojo for quick tests - fine! But now I need the full load time including flash and all the elements which are loaded by the flash
09:02 rhaen any suggestions?
09:02 purl "I suggest you don't smoke cigarettes ... and don't touch yourself when you're chillin' at the bus stop."
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10:07 jamesw www-mechanize-firefox or test-selenium?
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10:09 mspo is adding helpers the primary way to implement features?
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10:28 perlrocks Twitter: "@teenCoder I'm not sure I understood your question. Can you try to rephrase it? The Mojolicious framework is used for writing web apps/sites" --marcusramberg http://twitter.com/marcusramb​erg/status/90729195008823296
10:53 crab mspo: plugins too
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11:11 mspo okay
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11:13 mspo in a helper do I just return text content for a template to use, $self->render() it, or is there a better method to construct parts of pages?
11:33 crab i usually just return content
11:37 mspo what if i'm returning html?  it was rendering as text
11:38 crab sri: would you accept a patch to allow $tx->res->headers->expires() and ...->cache_control()?
11:38 crab mspo: return Mojo::ByteStream->new($content)
11:39 mspo k
11:39 crab that prevents escaping, make sure to be careful to avoid xss attacks
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11:45 mspo is there a file slurping helper already?
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11:46 mspo crab: Mojo::ByteStream->new($content) worked, thanks
11:47 crab mspo: if you want, you can "use Mojo::ByteStream 'b'" and shorten that to return b($content)
11:48 mspo I was thinking bytestream probably had the right stuff in it but couldn't put it together
11:49 mspo crab: unless calling ->new all the time is a memory leak I think the first thing is fine
11:49 mspo eventually I'll grok mvc.  I had similar mental blocks with django
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14:26 mspo crab: where can I put in http headers?
14:31 crab mspo: in any action, you can do $self->res->headers->header(MyHeader => "some value")
14:32 crab mspo: and $res->headers has some shortcut methods for common headers like ->content_type and ->content_disposition
14:33 mspo crab: "action" like route( action => foo ) ? or do you just mean available in a helper or plugin?
14:38 mspo right now I'm using Lite so I don't have any route()'s
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14:39 crab mspo: an action is any sub that handles a request, get '/foo' => sub { ...this is an action too... }
14:40 crab wherever you can get $tx, up to and including an after_dispatch hook, you can modify $tx->res->headers however you want.
14:41 mspo k
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15:48 tempire sri: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojoliciou​s/Guides/Routing#Generic_Placeholders
15:48 tempire "A generic placeholder can be surrounded by brackets to separate it from the surrounding text."
15:48 tempire s/brackets/parentheses/
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17:56 GitHub41 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/qdP1vI
17:56 GitHub41 [mojo/master] fixed typo - Sebastian Riedel
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18:11 initself_ friends, romans.
18:11 * sri waves
18:12 initself_ $dom->font->color # not valid syntax?
18:12 initself_ you can do $dom->div ... so font isn't just like div?
18:12 sri unless color is a tag, no
18:12 initself_ hrm.
18:12 initself_ it's an attribute, so i need to use that syntax.
18:12 * initself_ looks.
18:13 sri ->font->{color}
18:13 initself_ can't locate object method font
18:13 initself_ seems to suggest $dom->font is not valid?
18:13 sri then there is no font tag
18:13 initself_ hrm.  that could be!
18:20 initself_ http://scsys.co.uk:8002/121533
18:20 initself_ i dont see why $dom->div would fail, as you can clearly see it in the source.
18:22 sri but is it a root element?
18:22 initself_ it looks like it!
18:22 initself_ all i see is <body> some <br /> tags and then <div>
18:23 sri so it's not a root element
18:23 sri $dom->html->body->div->[0]
18:23 sri would be my first guess
18:23 initself_ REALLY?
18:23 initself_ Oh, shows how little I understand.
18:23 * initself_ tries again.
18:24 initself_ sri++
18:24 sri you either walk the whole tree or search with css selectors
18:24 initself_ ya, i see now!
18:24 sri :)
18:25 * sri goes to get pizza
18:26 initself_ die Dumper $dom->at('font:nth-of-type(1)')->{color}; # so great!
18:26 initself_ have you thought about selling this for millions of dollars?
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18:57 tempire initself_: if you're buying, I'll sell you the whole codebase
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19:00 * sri puts a free t-shirt on top of it
19:08 sri https://plus.google.com/10727686​7598285658079/posts/KcJXYamu12X # lol
19:18 tempire sri, you eat a lot of pizza
19:18 tempire that's a lot of carbs
19:18 * tempire gives sri a vegatable
19:20 sri but but
19:20 sri there are vegetables on the pizza!
19:20 tempire hmm
19:20 tempire I guess that's ok
19:21 tempire on http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojoli​cious/Guides/Routing#Reversibility
19:21 tempire for "/hello -> /:name/hello -> undef", undef is intended to mean that the route won't match the given url
19:21 tempire correct?
19:21 purl correct is, like, good. :>
19:22 sri yes
19:22 sri it's used all over the guide
19:23 tempire my first thought at looking at undef is that it would match, but not fill the value
19:23 tempire that's obviously not what it means in context
19:24 tempire but I'm wondering if anyone else thought the same
19:25 sri how weird... http://www.cpantesters.org​/distro/M/Mojolicious.html
19:25 sri 72 pass, 1 fail
19:26 sri the 1 fail is the broken perl 5.15, but it doesn't even show up in the list
19:28 xaka sri: are u planning to add a new feature to updated ioloop?
19:28 xaka *features
19:28 sri xaka: no
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20:15 initself_ i think there is probably a direct correlation between pizza consumption and genius programmers.
20:26 tempire the "instantly add chat to hacker news" is really a great marketing ploy
21:07 marcus sri: somehow I find the what the renderer works isn't a perfect match for the json rendering.
21:08 marcus sri: for instance, I have some action '/foo' which sets up some stash and renders a template. If I want a json representation of that, I can't really do '/foo.json' and reuse the action definition, can I?
21:09 sri marcus: why not?
21:09 marcus sri: because I need to do something like $self->render_json({<stuff_from_stash>}) ?
21:09 marcus sri: where would I do that?
21:09 sri in the action of course
21:10 marcus uh
21:10 marcus sri: but then the same action cannot be used to render a template.
21:10 sri return $self->render_json(...) if $self->stash->{format} eq 'json';
21:10 marcus yeah, I guess I can do that.
21:11 marcus it's not so pretty tho
21:11 sri find a better solution
21:11 sri bot sure what you're expecting, magic?
21:12 marcus sub action_json { shift->render_json(….)  ?
21:12 sri ?
21:12 marcus sri: I'm just brainstorming atm, so it might be a bad idea
21:13 marcus sri: being able to run a per-format sub strikes me as useful tho.
21:14 xaka why just dont grab the return value and pass it to renderer depend on format in case of there was no previous render call?
21:15 xaka in this case u can return anything from your handler (usually it's a hash) and convert it to anything - xml, json, template
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21:19 sri marcus: you might already be able to do that with a condition that rewrites the captured action value
21:20 marcus sri: not sure what you mean, but sounds good =)
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21:21 sri path and method match before conditions
21:22 sri so if you apply a condition that just always returns true and appends _format to the current value of $captures->{action}, you should get the behavior you described
21:23 marcus sri: except I'd want it to run {action} first, *then* action_<format>
21:24 sri eww
21:24 sri but also possible
21:24 purl well, also possible is creating an "Error" type, which could also contain an error message (explaining the reason for the Null return value), and allowing easy promotion to an actual exception in certain contexts or pragmas
21:25 sri you could on top of what i described add a shortcut that generates a bridge and a route attached to it
21:25 sri bridge would be normal action, attached route the format specific one
21:26 sri the return value of your normal route could then even prevent the format specific part
21:27 marcus yupp. But you might be right, maybe too much magic. I guess I'll settle for a helper to make it less verbose for now.
21:27 sri ye, it's a lot of magic
21:27 marcus $self->render_if_json({foo=>'bar'}); ? :)
21:28 sri $self->magical_render($whatever);
21:28 sri :)
21:28 marcus :D
21:28 marcus lovely
21:28 marcus format_sensitive_render(..)
21:28 marcus gender_sensitive_render(..)
21:29 sri werewolf_render(..)
21:29 * marcus kills some peasants.
21:30 * sri doesn't believe marcus
21:30 * marcus howls against the moon and bites sri.
21:32 sri next full moon is july 30...
21:33 marcus I have plans then, so I'm doing it early :)
21:34 sri oh, i see
21:34 * sri runs
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21:45 tempire sri!
21:45 tempire I have an artwork request.  or at least input.
21:46 marcus I have to say, http://meetv.no/ is starting to look like one of the prettier mojolicious powered sites out there :p
21:49 tempire I want to do this: http://bit.ly/pIutwX
21:49 tempire for placeholders
21:50 tempire which requires some sort of image that represents placeholders
21:50 tempire it's tough without the myriad pro font.
21:51 tempire dumb cs2 discs have faded into the aether
21:52 sri marcus: add it to the wiki!
21:52 tempire I need a service that uploads images for sharing with one click/action
21:52 sri tempire: what do you need?
21:53 sri you mean you want to add some kinda slide in your screencast?
21:53 marcus sri: done
21:54 sri marcus++
21:54 sri tempire: i really like how peepcode uses slides
21:54 marcus tempire: I use skitch, it uploads my screenshots with one click, and puts it in the paste buffer with the next.
21:55 marcus and it lets me host my screenshots on my own web server, or use skitch.com
21:57 sri tempire: use keynote
21:57 sri http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MrtyTRZ6OI # example for a keynote project filmed with screenflow
21:58 tempire not the program, that part's easy.  I'm looking for an image like the one in the screen shot.  Something that represents placeholders.
21:58 marcus http://nordaaker.com/docs/skitch/Testing123_%E2%80​%94_bash_%E2%80%94_119%C3%9735-20110712-235816.jpg is it just me, or is dancer overpromising a bit in their config file?
21:58 sri ah, you need to be specific ;p
21:59 sri marcus: lol
21:59 tempire This is what I have right now.  https://skitch.com/tempire/fjx45/sc​reen-shot-2011-07-12-at-5.53.10-pm
21:59 tempire I don't like it.
21:59 tempire It's boring.
22:01 sri /:mojolicious
22:01 sri Placeholders
22:01 purl Placeholders is the '?' in INSERT INTO archive VALUES(?, ?, ?, NOW(), NULL)
22:01 sri i wouldn't put too much effort into that detail though
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22:03 sri some random dingbat should do
22:03 tempire oh, dingbats
22:03 sri let me look up an example
22:03 tempire forgot about those
22:04 sri http://peepcode.com/products/nodejs-i # a dingbat heavy screencast (see screenshots)
22:06 sri don't be intimidated by the peepcode quality though, they have fulltime designers working on those screencasts
22:06 tempire I'm not
22:06 tempire it's only time.
22:06 sri ye
22:07 sri i also like the overlay slides on the right side they do sometimes
22:08 sri and never underestimate the power of a simple white dingbat on a dark background
22:09 * sri loves minimalistic design
22:10 tempire huh
22:11 tempire I guess osx doesn't have webdings
22:11 marcus I love ponies and rainbows
22:11 marcus it does
22:11 sri quite sure it does
22:11 marcus zapf dingbats
22:12 marcus *and* webdings
22:12 marcus tempire: check font book, under web?
22:12 tempire yeah, I see it now.  some programs just don't accept it as input, I guess.
22:16 tempire oh, character viewer.  now I remember.
23:18 depesz hmm .. where can I find some info on "dumper" clause in templates?
23:19 depesz http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojoli​cious/Plugin/DefaultHelpers#dumper - found this. is there any way to make it dump fully recursively, more than 2 depth-levels?
23:23 jamesw set the data-dumper package variable?
23:24 depesz hmm ... ok. thanks.
23:25 jamesw just a guess
23:26 jamesw nope that won't work
23:26 jamesw its hardcoded
23:26 depesz Yeah, but since Data::Dumper is loaded, I can just use it directly, and not use dumper() thing at all.
23:26 mspo I was having trouble with using a regex in mojolicious lite like get '/:foo' => [ foo => qr/^[a-z]/ ] => sub {};
23:27 depesz so you helped anyway :)
23:27 mspo it seemed like I couldn't use anchors in the regex
23:27 depesz mspo: yes. you can't.
23:27 jamesw cool
23:27 depesz it's mentioned in docs.
23:27 mspo the routing docs?
23:28 depesz mspo: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Gu​ides/Routing#More_Restrictive_Placeholders
23:29 sri and "./myapp.pl routes" will show you exactly why
23:29 sri depesz: the dumper limit is not intentional, improvements welcome
23:30 depesz sri: perhaps just removal of the maxdepth?
23:30 depesz it would help, at least in my case.
23:32 mspo sri: thanks, that's helpful
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23:32 GitHub91 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/n8ClVR
23:32 GitHub91 [mojo/master] removed depth limit from dumper helper - Sebastian Riedel
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23:32 sri depesz: hmm, not sure why the limit was there
23:32 depesz sri: thanks a lot.
23:34 mspo okay, I won't need the anchor
23:34 sri oh, maybe i mixed it up with Indent(2) or so
23:35 depesz hmm .. got a lot of "Use of uninitialized value in string ne at (eval 359) line 49."
23:35 depesz any idea how to debug it?
23:35 depesz it's probably in some template
23:36 sri make warnings fatal in templates?
23:37 sri should result in a pretty debug screen then
23:37 depesz how?
23:39 sri use warnings FATAL => "all";
23:40 depesz aaaah. right.
23:40 depesz sorry.
23:40 depesz although the error doesn't make sense .. moment trying to paste
23:41 depesz http://depesz.privatepaste.com/099d2f0efb
23:42 depesz intereastingly - when I click "tap for more" - line numbers get rearranged, and the line that was previously 54 is now 50th, and it makes sense.
23:43 sri damn, that is some horrible code
23:43 depesz in my screenshot?
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23:43 sri in the paste
23:43 depesz i can easily take it. i didn't write it :)
23:44 sri actually i have no idea how code lines without any actual code end up when compiled
23:45 depesz perhaps this is the source of the problem.
23:45 sri different line numbers points at a bug
23:45 depesz sorry.
23:46 sri would be nice if you could replicate it in a minimal test case
23:46 sri then i could take a look and find out
23:46 depesz hmm . well - i just have this project that I'm working on now - explain.depesz.com
23:47 depesz don't have any other mojolicious code.
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