Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-09-05

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Time Nick Message
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04:10 tempire anyone in central europe
04:10 tempire ping ms for macguffinbros.squarespace.com?
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04:26 grim_fandango Hello... I was reading a comment about Mojolicious on cpanratings (re 1.86) to the effect that the interface hadn't stabilized as of 1.86 -- is this still a concern moving forward?  Was it even valid as of 1.86?
04:33 tempire grim_fandango: trolls
04:36 tempire there's always new features being added.  some things are experimental, and marked clearly as such.  sometimes things are deprecated, after being marked as such for quite a while.
04:36 tempire pretty standard stuff.
04:36 grim_fandango Thanks, just thought I'd check.
04:37 tempire here's the way it's done: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojo​licious/Guides/CodingGuidelines
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06:19 perlrocks Twitter: "Issue #6 of the Perl Weekly was just sent out. http://t.co/qO7QEV7 #perl #twiki #gsoc #metacpan #ibm #jenkins #REST #Mojolicious" --szabgab http://twitter.com/szabgab​/status/110597958965268481
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07:03 marcus sri: I like how you are 'ahead of your time'… :p
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08:41 sri heh
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10:20 rhaen hello world.
10:20 purl hello world. are you here?
10:21 rhaen sri: yep, I'll ask you about lottery things the next time - just "as you are ahead of time"...
10:36 rhaen just trying to setup something like a "modern webtools bootcamp" thing for sysadmins
10:36 rhaen Mojo will be one part of it - for testing/extracting stuff/all purpose tool
10:36 rhaen Any suggestion - what else should be part of a "modern toolchain" for sysadmins?
10:36 rhaen Tho, this is not a mojo alike question
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11:07 * sri doesn't know much about sysadmin stuff anymore
11:08 sri but that reminds me that i wanted to try tmux
11:10 sri also been thinking about some kind of asset pipeline for mojolicious
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11:26 rhaen what do you mean by asset pipeline?
11:27 rhaen don't we have something in the Mojo::Asset class?
11:27 rhaen like ->move_to , ->size etc?
11:27 sri as in rails asset pipeline
11:28 rhaen ah.
11:28 sri the basic idea is to have templates that get processed once at application startup and are served from a cache afterwards
11:29 sri this also includes joining multiple js files and minifying js/css
11:29 rhaen true, this might lead to huge performance boost
11:30 rhaen having hooks for that might be nice.
11:30 sri not really, serious apps prolly do it already anyway
11:30 sri it means less work
11:31 rhaen hm, I thought about css compressors/merge processes
11:32 judofyr sri: what do you think about the asset pipeline in Rails/Rack?
11:33 judofyr how would you make it better? :-)
11:33 sri some of it makes perfect sense, but i think in its current form it really lacks usability
11:33 judofyr usability? how so?
11:34 sri the whole js requirement sucks
11:34 sri also those magical comments
11:34 sri but i guess ruby folks have a thing for magical comments
11:35 judofyr ah, but isn't that only for CoffeeScript and other stuff implemented in JS?
11:35 sri yes it is
11:35 judofyr sri: magical comments? there's only the encoding-comment, and most people don't use it…
11:35 judofyr dunno about magical comments in the asset pipeline though
11:35 judofyr I haven't had a chance to look properly at it
11:36 sri /= require foo.js
11:36 sri umm //
11:36 sri //= require_tree .
11:36 sri #= require foo.css
11:36 judofyr ah
11:36 sri there's a whole DSL with magical comments
11:37 judofyr I agree. that seems bad.
11:37 judofyr in CSS, you could at least use @import
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11:38 sri i think the sinatra asset thingy might be on to something
11:39 sri asset application => ['/js/*.js'];
11:39 sri <%= asset 'application' %>
11:40 judofyr sri: what about ordering?
11:40 sri it's an array
11:41 sri alphabetical by default, or list names if you need mroe control
11:41 judofyr seems ok
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12:18 judofyr sri: will you add such an asset pipeline to Mojolicious?
12:19 sri don't know yet
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12:33 rhaen oh, github throws 500 for me.
12:33 rhaen That's not nice!
12:48 judofyr same here :(
12:48 judofyr it's defunkt :(
12:49 judofyr "Our DB has blacklisted one of our frontend hosts due to connection errors.  We're looking into it."
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13:28 perlrocks Twitter: "I thought I try to Mojolicious, I know it seems early Amon2 more modest reading the source. I worry over until tomorrow." (ja) --hayajo http://twitter.com/hayajo/​status/110705743883284480
13:40 perlrocks Twitter: "I got taught in the summer Mojolicious: What is learned in the module as the core module dependencies Lite, a wonderful ('∇ `)" (ja) --azumakuniyuki http://twitter.com/azumakuniy​uki/status/110708882644537345
13:54 marcus judofyr: github wars?
14:15 perlrocks Twitter: "Wrote a 20-line Perl script today that remotely monitors my web server. Read more at my blog "Discovering Mojolicious" http://ow.ly/6liEV" --WilliamLMcKee http://twitter.com/WilliamLMc​Kee/status/110717584193757184
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14:32 al so, is everyone handling forms and db objects manually or is there something fancy one could use to translate DBIx data to html forms and vice versa?
14:36 al or any other ORM
14:37 al guess i'm kind of asking for catalyst?
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14:45 stephan48 html::formbuilder or so
14:47 stephan48 HTML::FormHandler
14:47 purl HTML::FormHandler is implemented with Moose, Class::MetaForm is a glue to use Moose. Those are very different approaches. or worth looking at
14:47 stephan48 a downside is it uses moose, thanks purl
14:48 stephan48 it supports DBIC
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14:52 sri hmm
14:52 al yea, well, if i'm pulling in moose now i could have just gone with catalyst from the start i guess
14:52 sri think i'll leave the asset pipeline problem to the plugin authors for now
14:57 stephan48 al: otherwhise feel free to start one
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14:58 GitHub84 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Lz1fJw
14:58 GitHub84 [mojo/master] micro optimization - Sebastian Riedel
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14:59 sri it's a really messy problem, you have to handle development and production differently
15:00 sri debugging javascript can become a nightmare with concatenated and minified files
15:01 marcus sri: worry about the mongo instead ;)
15:02 sri marcus: and you take over worrying about the rest of mojolicious for me? :)
15:02 marcus sri: instead of the pipeline I meant :)
15:02 sri :(
15:03 marcus sri: I can *worry*. It's just time to actually do useful things about those worries...
15:03 crab what is an asset pipeline?
15:04 sri http://guides.rubyonrails.org/asset_pipeline.html
15:04 crab oh, a thing to minify javascript and whatnot.
15:04 sri it's the reason why rails now depends on node.js
15:05 sri (kinda)
15:05 crab quick, make mojo depend on node.js too!
15:06 sri BECAUSE WE ARE REAL HIPSTERS TOO!
15:07 sri it's good rails folks are working in that direction, but i just don't see this being ready for prime time
15:08 marcus can't we find something more hip to depend on?
15:08 marcus like haskell or erlang or something?
15:08 marcus or scala...
15:08 purl scala is http://www.scala-lang.org
15:08 sri well, scala almost looks like perl :)
15:09 marcus can't be, it's hip!
15:10 sri last i checked it was cool to hate scala
15:11 marcus hmm
15:14 * marcus gives up and learns c instead
15:15 marcus https://bitbucket.org/eric_​t/modern-fortran/wiki/Home # phear modern fortan
15:15 marcus fortran
15:16 crab holy cow, only those loops look like fortran to me
15:17 crab and if (.not. ...)
15:17 marcus enddo!
15:24 mspo people actually use that sass thing?
15:25 mspo what's the other one? lesscss?
15:40 marcus mspo: we actually use that scss thing.
15:58 crab why do you like it?
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16:07 marcus crab: variables
16:07 purl variables is a pretty common concept
16:08 marcus I don't actually write the css tho
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16:55 tempire someone in central europe, what's the ping ms for acguffinbros.squarespace.com?
16:56 tempire er, macguffinbros.squarespace.com
16:59 crab tempire: 85ms
17:00 tempire excellent.  are there any japan-natives lurking in here?
17:00 crab (taking the liberty to assume you want the ping time from a central european network, rather than an answer from someone in central europe.)
17:00 tempire crab: yes
17:01 crab 340ms from an indian network
17:02 sri 147ms from germany
17:02 crab (the 85ms was also from germany)
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17:03 sri 147ms from the biggest german provider
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17:15 crab which is who
17:15 crab ?
17:16 sri t-online
17:28 stephan48 t-offline*
17:28 stephan48 tempire: 150ms from a "kabel deutschland buisness" connection(home con)
17:29 stephan48 100 ms from a hetzner root
17:29 marcus 130 from norway as well
17:29 tempire stephan48: I definitely want to do this mirror brain thing.
17:29 stephan48 :)
17:29 stephan48 http://downloads.stejau.de
17:30 tempire just let me know what I need to do
17:31 stephan48 basically i would need the address & rsync/ftp login(rsync over ssh is not possible yet) some infos on the owner and i could add it
17:31 stephan48 if you want me to sync to others i would need a rsync login(best)
17:32 stephan48 and ofcourse a copy of the data :)
17:32 stephan48 can we talk tomorrow about it?
17:32 tempire yes
17:32 stephan48 remind me and i will write you an overview
17:36 tempire huh.  there's a free cdn.
17:37 tempire http://www.coralcdn.org/
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17:39 stephan48 ye
17:41 tempire shnikies that's fast
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17:59 rhaen a free cdn?
17:59 rhaen wheew! Looks interesting
18:02 rhaen but doesn't work for me
18:04 tempire you tried appending nyud.net to any site?
18:04 rhaen yep
18:05 tempire try zombiedolphin.com.nyud.net
18:09 rhaen ah, ok
18:09 rhaen it took a while to load for the first time.
18:09 rhaen that's cool
18:09 rhaen we're using akamai
18:10 rhaen and/or limelight - depends on the content type
18:25 stephan48 they are expensive
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19:06 rhaen stephan48: they are, well - not. :)
19:06 perlrocks Twitter: "Issue #6 of the Perl Weekly was just sent out. http://t.co/wCZljeh #perl #twiki #gsoc #metacpan #ibm #jenkins #REST #Mojolicious" --peterthoeny http://twitter.com/peterthoe​ny/status/110790967019323392
19:06 stephan48 rhaen: they arent?
19:07 rhaen stephan48: they are somewhat expensive for smaller sites but are really cheap if you consider the infrastructure which is needed instead of cdn
19:07 stephan48 ye
19:07 rhaen stephan48: don't ask me for prices here, however I work for Bayerischer Rundfunk
19:08 rhaen we use them for streaming and on demand content
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19:08 stephan48 but i dont think tempire want to invest much money :) neither want i...
19:08 rhaen they are way cheaper than hosting everything on our own.
19:08 stephan48 yap
19:08 rhaen we had 50 GBit/s in peaks during the football em in 2009
19:09 stephan48 still i would consider the demands of a
19:09 rhaen that's impossible to host at your site - you want cdn at a certain level.
19:09 rhaen true. We can setup a cdn using apache traffic servers :)
19:09 stephan48 of a company different from that of a community hosting screencasts
19:10 rhaen hm, true. homerj sc2 stuff :)
19:10 rhaen oh, you think of tempires stuff?
19:10 stephan48 cause you need to make sure your stuff is not pirated etc
19:10 rhaen good point, the screencasts are cool, I would like to co-host the casts as well
19:10 stephan48 for screencasts sharing and copying them can be seen positive
19:10 stephan48 ye
19:10 stephan48 mojocasts :)
19:11 rhaen no pr0n?
19:11 stephan48 i could sponsor a download redirector
19:11 rhaen we could use mojo for that :)
19:11 stephan48 ask tempire, if he can produce mojopr0n
19:11 rhaen or dns round robin :)
19:11 stephan48 ye
19:13 rhaen ok, count me hin.
19:13 rhaen err count me in.
19:13 rhaen I am running a hetzner root - should be sufficient as cache
19:14 rhaen well, at least as a "stupid" cache as I don't have that much ram to store the full movie in ram I suppose
19:15 rhaen let's run apache traffic servers in parent caching mode :)
19:15 garu so, if you set your cookie domain to ".example.com" and do a GET request to "http://example.com", should the client pass the cookie to the server?
19:16 garu RFC 2965 is confusing me :(
19:16 garu sri: ^^
19:16 sri garu: the cookie situation is a mess
19:16 garu sri: tell me about it :(
19:17 sri there are no specs, we can only try to do what browsers do
19:17 sri i've even removed all references to cookie specs from mojolicious
19:17 sri since it's so pointless
19:17 garu sri: I'm asking because it appears to work in FF, but fails in Mojo::UserAgent because of sub find in Mojo::Cookie::CookieJar
19:18 sri garu: careful with that, try multiple browsers before fixing
19:18 garu sri: absolutely, which is why I asked here first
19:18 sri don't want security holes
19:19 garu I was only able to figure what's happening on the mojo end, where $self->{jar}'s keys are the cookie domains, but sub find tries to match them against the url
19:20 garu this looks right, but I don't see it failing on FF
19:20 garu (probably because the browser is so permissive)
19:20 sri browser check first imo, no point digging if you're not sure what the right behavior is
19:21 garu hmmm
19:22 garu sri: look at 4.1.2.3 in RFC 6265. Looks like the leading dot is not allowed but, if present, should be simply ignored
19:23 * garu tries the damn thing in other browsers
19:23 sri don't care about rfc
19:23 sri only browsers ;p
19:23 garu heh
19:23 sri if we followed the rfc it just wouldn't work at all :S
19:24 garu chrome passes as well (with cookie domain set to ".mysite.com")
19:24 sri feel free to fix then :)
19:24 garu the odd thing is, those automatic tests were passing before in Mojo
19:25 garu opera passes as well
19:26 sri or just send me failing test cases if you can't fix it
19:27 sri rhaen: haha, i watch homerj too! :D
19:27 rhaen sri: haha :)
19:29 rhaen sri: oh, btw. textmate or vim?
19:30 sri textmate most of the time, console vim for single file stuff
19:42 garu sri: this should be fixed if, in line 71 of Mojo::CookieJar, we do a s/next unless my $jar = $self->{jar}->{$domain};/next unless my $jar = $self->{jar}->{$domain} || $self->{jar}->{".$domain"};/
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19:48 stephan48 rhaen: if i understand tempire correctly we need many locations with a way to archieve low answer times
19:57 rhaen stephan48: many is something - well. 2 or 3 might be enough
19:58 sri garu: test case!
19:58 purl test case is what made it possible to fix the problem anyway
19:58 * sri pokes purl
19:58 purl that feels ... *sigh*
19:58 rhaen stephan48: best thing would be to just "mirror" his page
19:59 rhaen and then run a custom domain for it and let do dns the rest.
19:59 rhaen stephan48: or run a proxy/cache infrastructure but that doesn't make things simpler
20:00 stephan48 lets see what ressoureces we might ger :)
20:00 stephan48 get
20:00 stephan48 anyways gn8
20:01 rhaen stephan48: n8 :)
20:02 rhaen tempire: are you alive?
20:02 purl Yes.
20:02 * rhaen slaps purl.
20:02 purl o/` Hit me baby, one more time o/`
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20:34 sri garu: getting a "solution" without knowing the problem is rather annoying
20:36 garu :(
20:37 garu sri: don't worry about patching, I'm thinking of a way to make a failing test case first :)
20:38 sri just spent 20 minutes trying to figure out what you actually meant and failed :(
20:39 sri the first thing you do should be a t/mojo/cookiejar.t test
20:42 * sri goes to watch a few episodes of 30 rock
20:42 * sri cracks the whip one last time
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21:04 diegok hm... why do we want to host mojocasts outside of vimeo?
21:07 sri html5 video
21:08 * sri cracks the whip again and vanishes in a cloud of smoke
21:39 rwstauner i know you can inflate a lite app into a full structure, but is it possible to combine a lite app with additional controllers or more lite apps?
21:45 rhaen rwstauner: you can use wrapper and instantiate a new controller
21:45 rwstauner ah, looks like the Mount plugin may be what I'm looking for
21:45 rhaen rwstauner: however, I only have seen that in Mojo apps
21:46 rwstauner i'll have to look for wrapper, thanks rhaen
21:46 rwstauner Mount is listed as experimental
21:46 rhaen rwstauner: oh, nm - just give it a try
21:47 rhaen rwstauner: we had several api changes, however there was always a way
21:47 rhaen rwstauner: to get things running again without too many code changes
21:47 rhaen rwstauner: make sure to write testcases and you are ready for any change
21:47 rwstauner i'm sure.
21:48 rwstauner will definitely use tests... i'm still exploring all the fun things there are to learn with mojo
21:49 rhaen rwstauner: mojo is quite awesome (that's why we are in here)
21:49 rwstauner :-)
21:50 rhaen things seem to look complicated for the first time, then the documentation seems to be odd
21:50 rwstauner i'm looking for 'wrapper' in the docs but haven't found anything yet
21:50 sri and if you decide to use something experimental, make sure to give feedback so it can become stable in the future! ;)
21:50 rhaen but if you had some success and got the basic concepts you will like the style of the documentation
21:51 rhaen and you enjoy your mojo experience - as it just works.
21:51 sri btw. i would suggest just going with a normal mojolicious app if you want controllers
21:53 rwstauner ok, thanks guys
21:53 rwstauner i'm sure it would be easier to maintain a full app
21:54 rwstauner especially pull requests and such
21:54 sri then again, i don't know your exact requirements, and there are *a lot* of possibilities, the whole framework is insanely flexible (you won't find much official documentation for paths we don't recommend though)
21:54 rwstauner i just think the lite apps look so cool
21:54 sri yea, but lite routes don't work so well when split between many files
21:55 rhaen rwstauner: lite apps are incredible cool - for the right purpose :)
21:55 sri i've tried a lot to make it work, but centralized routing is simply the best way to keep large apps maintainable
21:56 rwstauner agreed.  so is the suggested way to make multiple controllers and set up a single router that dispatches to them all as the main entry point?
21:56 * sri nods
21:57 sri it really depends though
21:57 sri if you have many small apps that are maintained independently i suppose mounting lite apps works well too
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22:00 rwstauner i'll have to try it and see :-)
22:05 rwstauner thanks guys, i'm very excited to play with this further and try it all out... it looks so great.  nice job, sri and friends!
22:06 sri have fun :)
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22:50 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious-Plugin-DigestAuth 0.02 by SHAW - http://t.co/lHcIySI" --cpan_new http://twitter.com/cpan_new​/status/110847320920305665
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