Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-09-16

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 sri tempire: yea, ringer, it's horrible
00:00 sri http://www.tv.com/story/26679.html
00:01 LordVorp hm. any examples already written about converting an HTTP::Cookies object to a Mojo::CookieJar?
00:01 LordVorp ... so i'm using Mechanize to do a login, that sets a persistent cookie.  if i can load those cookies into Mojo I can stop having to use Mech for my fetches...
00:03 LordVorp so it would: my $m = WWW::Mechanize->new(cookie_jar => $cj); login($mech); $cj_new = convert($cj); my $m = Mojo::UserAgent->new(cookie_jar => $cj_new); ...
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00:37 stderr sri: sorry, was away. I still don't get the url_for thing. Your example uses yet another undocumented syntax (according to ojo POD which I just read now because I'm not using it, a() takes either a subref or some kind of hash---I can only guess at the semantics of passing a plain string). Do you have an example where the syntax mentioned in Mojolicious::Controller's POD works?
00:41 stderr tempire: thanks for the hint! That let me verify that my routes indeed exist:
00:41 stderr /admin        *  admin          (?^:^/admin)
00:41 stderr +/domain    *  domain         (?^:^/domain)
00:41 stderr +/list    *  "domain-list"  (?^:^/list)
00:41 stderr was kicked by sri: no pasting
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00:47 LordVorp oops
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00:52 GitHub44 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/dYBCPw
00:52 GitHub44 [mojo/master] improve ojo documentation - Sebastian Riedel
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00:56 sri oh, the anti pasting script works :)
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01:02 LordVorp so no hints about converting cookie jars?
01:02 LordVorp :D
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01:14 LordVorp whoa. Mojo::Cookie* don't track domain.
01:15 sri they do
01:15 LordVorp oh. alright, the modules don't *mention* domain :D
01:15 LordVorp that i've yet seen...
01:16 LordVorp oh. heh oh. the JAR tracks domain, the COOKIES don't.
01:16 LordVorp or mebbe i'm just talking before looking closely enough.
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01:20 LordVorp alright I see it: I'm using Mojo as a client, not a server. That led me to Cookie::Request, which doesnt' track domain but is contained in CookieJar, which does.  Cookie::Response also tracks domain but now i'm confused, for my client script, if I should create ::Request or ::Response's to do into my CookieJar.
01:20 LordVorp s/do/go
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01:24 GitHub43 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/blAZ4A
01:24 GitHub43 [mojo/master] improved cookie jar documentation - Sebastian Riedel
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01:24 sri that should clear it up
01:24 LordVorp dang. you're right on top of it... that's so refreshing. :D
01:24 sri the jar is not really an enduser api
01:25 LordVorp yeah I know, and i understand this is a bit "outside the box" for the normal user...
01:31 sri refreshing to have someone asking sensible questions, instead of the usual hand waving :D
01:45 sri is anyone here actually using the cpanify command?
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02:14 perlrocks Twitter: "/ Mojolicious reference to install Mojolicious - http://t.co/Ip8SZUvJ Introduction to Perl with sample code" (ja) --wPerlnews http://twitter.com/wPerlnew​s/status/114522401093586945
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02:21 tempire sri: I don't think you should remove it just yet.  I still want to find a way to push people to create more plugins.
02:21 tempire but it requires having a mojocast about testing first.
02:21 tempire and that's a couple episodes out.
02:23 sri tempire: sure, just fishing for some feedback ;)
02:24 sri i need a better way to get feedback for experimental features than threatening to remove it -.-
02:27 tempire how about +1's next to each thing in the docs?
02:28 * sri scratches head
02:28 sri how would that work?
02:29 tempire you could put a +1 next to every method that's experimental
02:29 tempire maybe even every function…I wonder what kind of feedback would come in.
02:30 tempire It might be nothing…but it's more than anyone else has tried.
02:30 tempire could turn out to be quite innovative.
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02:30 sri i kinda like the idea
02:30 tempire The more I think about it, the more I like it too
02:31 tempire People are used to +1s now, and they're easy enough to customize
02:31 tempire although…how do you see data from that?
02:32 tempire is there a way to see that besides using js to push clicks to google analytics?
02:32 tempire that would work, regardless
02:33 tempire http://yoast.com/plus-one-google-analytics/
02:34 tempire beyond that, all you need to do is make sure the <g:plus one href attribute has an appropriate url in it
02:35 sri hmm, that's not even too complicated
02:36 perlrocks Twitter: ".@MoxAmok It's in a fairly early stage, hopefully just about to become minimally useable. Using #perl, #mojolicious, #mongodb so far #_a3" --qualiabyte http://twitter.com/qualiabyt​e/status/114528074695065600
02:38 crab hi
02:38 purl privet, crab.
02:41 tempire sri: the in-page analytics might be of some use as well
02:48 tempire would it be better to have a button next to each chapter for copying the chapter url into the clipboard?
02:48 sri hmm, no idea
02:48 tempire I'll let people right click for now, then.
03:21 tempire latest version of jvm has support for dynamic languages.
03:22 * tempire now officially wonders what the point of parrot is
03:28 sri well, it's not like you can trust oracle ;)
03:29 sri but yea, the fact that so much cooler stuff like Rubinius has been written is so much less time makes you wonder
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03:39 Coke I skimmed the Guides and didn't see an obvious answer - does mojo have something like coldfusion's debug output, where you can get information about the page rendering time (and db queries, and...) basically tacked on to the end of the rendered page?
03:39 sri nothing beyond the normal debug log timer
03:41 Coke Danke.
03:41 Coke So far, it's definitely comparable to something like fw/1 on ColdFusion.
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03:44 sri but now that you mention it, maybe timing helpers could be useful
03:45 sri <% start_timer 'page' %>…<%= stop_timer 'page' %>
03:45 sri or something similar
03:47 rwstauner could be helpful, though i would expect most logic that takes any time would be done in the controller before the template
03:47 sri helpers are everywhere
03:47 sri $self->start_timer('page');
03:47 sri <%= stop_timer 'page' %>
03:47 rwstauner i could see that being handy
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04:20 crab what is a fw/1 on coldfusion?
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04:42 GitHub188 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/MNdGKg
04:42 GitHub188 [mojo/master] added experimental start_timer and stop_timer helpers - Sebastian Riedel
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04:49 Coke fw/1 is a MVC framework for ColdFusion.
04:49 Coke Framework/1
04:50 Coke Though it has virtually no need to declare routes. they kind of magically work based on what you name things.
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04:52 GitHub180 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/n-9L-A
04:52 GitHub180 [mojo/master] fixed small timer bug - Sebastian Riedel
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04:56 sri feedback on start_timer/stop_timer would be appreciated
04:56 sri i'm still a little undecided
04:56 tempire I bet that would be a useful thing to put in ::plugin::consolelogger
04:56 tempire though I have no idea if anyone uses that.
04:58 sri i like that it makes the code easier to maintain, but i'm unsure about a) the scalar/list context thing and b) the names, which clash a bit with Mojo::IOLoop->timer
05:04 tempire You could make it the same as the firebug timers
05:04 tempire time, timeend
05:05 tempire or, start_profiler, stop_profiler
05:07 tempire yeah, I like *_profiler
05:08 sri profiler sounds good, but maybe a little too abitious
05:08 sri unless there are better suggestions i'll go with it though :)
05:10 sri hmm
05:10 sri or not
05:10 sri at some point someone will write a nytprof plugin
05:11 tempire oooooh, searching for mojolicious gives sub links now
05:12 sri ooooh
05:12 tempire and dancer dropped a spot in the google results for "perl web framework"
05:13 tempire perl dancer has better sub links though
05:14 tempire ah, that's why
05:14 tempire you should make the mojobar-links a <ul>
05:14 sri Oo
05:14 tempire google likes that, and it's better for screen readers
05:14 sri actually i think it's about linkback
05:15 sri for example a drop down for documentation with guide links
05:16 sri quite sure you can't get external links into the google sub links menu
05:18 tempire hmm
05:18 tempire that makes sense, since your nav bar links mostly go elsewhere
05:18 sri i actually wouldn't mind a well designed drop down menu
05:19 sri something like the rails guide index
05:20 sri http://guides.rubyonrails.org/ # click on guides index
05:23 tempire neato
05:24 tempire wow
05:24 tempire http://rubyonrails.org/screencasts/rails3
05:25 tempire they really went after the corporate manager with that one
05:25 tempire Now I want to do that.
05:25 tempire We need a mojolicious model
05:25 tempire marcus?
05:25 purl marcus is pretty sure lisp adoption is being hampered by being named after a speech defect. or http://picasaweb.google.com/olga.r​amberg/Lisboa#5240395957801479314 or a moose farmer?
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05:40 GitHub141 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/X5DZmg
05:40 GitHub141 [mojo/master] renamed start_timer/stop_timer to profile - Sebastian Riedel
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05:44 sri that looks better
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06:03 stderr I've hacked a minimal example for my routing problem. Anyone mind having a look at it? http://bodega.towiski.de/RouteFoo.pm
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07:52 perlrocks Twitter: "New chapter titles let you skip directly to a topic, and copy the links to share specific chapters http://t.co/GFR6M1r1 #perl #mojolicious" --mojocasts http://twitter.com/mojocast​s/status/114607457552183296
07:57 crab #5ed131: "fixed small name generation bug in Mojolicious::Plugin::Config"
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08:02 * sri pokes crab
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08:08 crab why are you poking me?
08:09 sri it looked like you wanted to say something but fell asleep
08:09 * sri pokes crab again
08:10 crab i was just thinking that's a nice, innocuous-sounding commit message.
08:10 judofyr sri: interesting fix for the redirect_to-problem
08:10 crab but my app is named XYZ.pm and has xyz.conf, and i was very puzzled for a while about why suddenly things didn't seem properly configured.
08:10 crab (i upgraded from 1.86 to head yesterday)
08:10 judofyr sri: have you considered supporting $self->redirect_to(301 => …)?
08:11 sri judofyr: doesn't work
08:11 purl Look buddy, doesn't work is a strong statement. Does it sit on the couch all day? Is it making faces at you? Does it want more money? Is it sleeping with your girlfriend? Please be specific!
08:11 sri it's a bit tricky
08:11 judofyr can't you just check if the first argument is an int?
08:11 sri route name can be 301
08:11 judofyr oh
08:12 crab like levi's famous 301 jeans
08:12 sri perl -Mojo -E'say a("/foo/bar" => "301")->url_for("301")'
08:12 sri -.-
08:12 judofyr and there's *no* difference between strings and ints in Perl?
08:13 sri mostly not
08:13 crab there are plenty of differences, but not at this level
08:13 sri there is a magical internal flag that says if a scalar started with an int assignment
08:14 sri Mojo::JSON uses stuff like that
08:14 tempire really
08:14 tempire do tell
08:14 tempire what line?
08:14 tempire or subs
08:15 crab tempire: no, you'll just have to read it all. muahaha.
08:15 judofyr tempire: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/bl​ob/master/lib/Mojo/JSON.pm#L334
08:15 judofyr I think
08:15 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/bl​ob/master/lib/Mojo/JSON.pm#L333
08:15 sri damn!
08:15 crab you big spoilsports.
08:15 judofyr muhaha!
08:16 judofyr sri: am I the only who's bothered that I can't easily check what's a number and what's a string in Perl? :/
08:17 sri it's generally not a big deal
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08:35 tempire I think I found a new love
08:36 tempire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki​/Inferno_(operating_system)
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09:34 judofyr sri: $self->flash(message => 'foo') should survive a redirect_to, right?
09:38 sri crab: your app did not have tests right?
09:39 sri the actual bug was that we couldn't generate the config file for normal apps consistently for script and test
09:40 judofyr sri: woot. [% h.dumper(h.flash) %] is empty, but [% h.dumper(h.session.flash) %] contains it :/
09:43 sri crab: feel free to try and find a better solution, but the best i could find was decamelizing the app class
09:43 judofyr sri: ah, $self->flash doesn't return the flash variables from the previous response, but from this response
09:52 sri ye, flash is a bit tricky
09:53 judofyr ye, because flash(foo => 'bar') sets it to a different place than flash('foo') fetches it from…
09:54 sri maybe hash access shouldn't be documented in so much detail
09:55 judofyr I think it complicates it
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09:58 GitHub33 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/KeurNQ
09:58 GitHub33 [mojo/master] simplify flash examples - Sebastian Riedel
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10:04 sri hmm, maybe hash access should even be deprecated
10:06 judofyr well, it doesn't make any sense to access the new flash attributes
10:06 judofyr only set them
10:07 judofyr I think it makes more sense for flash() to return the current flash attributes
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10:08 GitHub39 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Xsp1kQ
10:08 GitHub39 [mojo/master] deprecated direct hash access to the flash in Mojolicious::Controller - Sebastian Riedel
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10:08 judofyr that was quick
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13:45 marcus sri: idraw looks neatish
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14:17 oleber hi all
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17:19 perlrocks Twitter: "Ish and Perl5.8 Mojolicious is not. (Http://t.co/acTExymm)" (ja) --jyegan http://twitter.com/jyegan/​status/114750151976960000
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17:52 perlrocks Twitter: "This looks awesome and makes me feel old at the same time: http://j.mp/eslbjJ #mojolicious" --mestery http://twitter.com/mestery​/status/114758632905777152
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18:13 Vandal why it doesn't working? http://paste.org.ru/?zuz7dr
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18:21 stderr vandal: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Moj​olicious/Guides/Cheatsheet#path "path" is a reserved stash value. Just name it something else and you should be fine.
18:22 Vandal odd
18:23 Vandal it wirking with stash but not wits param
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18:25 Vandal thanks
18:26 stderr I don't know why all this stuff is dragged around in the stash but yeah, one has to take care of these reserved values, there's quite a few. You're welcome :)
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18:30 stderr metaperl: and I thought *my* connection was crap
18:30 metaperl stderr:  you are noticing my quit and join msgs?
18:30 stderr yup
18:30 metaperl stderr: yes, and I'm at work
18:30 metaperl my home connection is much better
18:31 stderr :-o
18:32 stderr my current home connection is 256kbps (at $120/mon). At work it's n*100mbit to practically everywhere (except my home)
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18:34 Vandal O_o
18:34 Vandal $120/mon???
18:35 stderr one hundred and fucking twenty, yup. Satellite. Galápagos islands.
18:36 Vandal my condolences
18:37 stephan48 ow thats bad
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18:46 metaperl wow. do you speak Spanish stderr?
18:46 metaperl that must be a nice place to live ( Galápagos islands. )
19:02 sri marcus: doesn't look much better than sketch
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19:18 tempire cheaper than sketch
19:18 tempire wonder if it crashes less :s
19:20 rhaen hello world.
19:20 purl hello world. are you here?
19:20 rhaen tempire: great stuff - that cast
19:20 rhaen tempire: good work!
19:20 tempire :)
19:21 marcus tempire: yeah, sketch crashes too much for my taste as well
19:21 rhaen what about your plans for mirroring it?
19:21 * sri heard there will be a new sketch version soon that crashes less
19:21 rhaen I can add another mirror.
19:22 tempire rhaen: unless you're in japan, I've got enough mirrors.  need a way to detect user location, though.
19:22 rhaen sri: lo, that's just for training purpose. Repeating stuff will help you to increase your skills.
19:22 rhaen tempire: not that I am aware of.
19:22 rhaen tempire: ip detection using googles tools?
19:23 tempire I don't want to work for it.
19:23 tempire I just want it to work.
19:23 rhaen tempire: sounds fair.
19:23 tempire go!
19:23 rhaen go go?
19:23 purl go go is, like, cute ;)
19:25 sri marcus: have you tried idraw yet?
19:25 marcus sri: nope
19:25 marcus sucks with app store that you cannot get a trial :)
19:25 marcus not sure I'm ready to buy it
19:26 tempire probably why it's so inexpensive
19:26 marcus yea
19:26 * marcus is thinking of switching from lightroom to aperture
19:27 rhaen hm, I am thinking of switching to aperture as well - but from iPhoto.
19:28 rhaen marcus: why will you choose aperture?
19:29 sri new stable chrome also uses the latest websocket spec
19:29 sri WEBSOCKETS!
19:29 purl WEBSOCKETS!!!
19:29 rhaen coding websocket stuff is hard, let's go shopping
19:30 sri oh, latest ie10 preview also supports it
19:42 rhaen btw, most of the websocket stuff on the wiki is broken
19:42 rhaen vti sources on github are way too old to support current versions of mojo
19:43 rhaen aka - he uses Mojo::Client alot and some methods which are vanished over time
19:43 rhaen it's no longer a help to get started with ws stuff.
19:44 rhaen What do you think? Remove the links from the wiki?
19:46 sri of course
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19:47 GitHub142 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FeRAEQ
19:47 GitHub142 [mojo/master] updated WebSocket implementation to ietf-14 - Sebastian Riedel
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20:41 stderr metaperl: (l8) yeah I speak something at least resembling Spanish
20:41 stderr it's nice for a while at least, perfect when you have kids
21:06 tempire did someone create a resource plugin that creates a bunch of rest routes?
21:06 tempire I recall that existing.
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21:42 josh hey guys hows mojo doing these days
21:42 josh i noticed old versions arent on cpan anymore :(
21:44 sri umm, they are always on backpan
21:45 sri not to mention tags in git
21:54 * stderr pokes sri
21:55 stderr I've had 8 downloads of RouteFoo and still no idea where it's screwed up
21:57 sri multiple people have tried to explain it to you by now, i don't think there is much left i could try
21:57 sri i'm not a good teacher though, maybe someone else still has a better explanation
21:59 stderr Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I can see nobody have even addressed the question of what url_for('named', controller => 'foo', action => 'bar') is supposed to do
21:59 sri many times
21:59 purl many times is the query that complex?
22:00 stderr Must have been in the 10min I was kicked in the last 3 days or so because it's not in my scrollback
22:01 sri you can always look at the channel log
22:02 stderr it's not complex, it's just not documented. srand() is as simple a function call as it gets but without documentation as to its effects you're screwed
22:02 sri it is documented too
22:02 sri so far the documentation has worked for about 99% of our users, someone has to be the exception i guess :)
22:03 marty I've never had any problems with url_for - it seems pretty straight forward.
22:03 stderr sri: that's what I did. still no trace
22:03 sri please add a page to the wiki should you find a better explanation that works for you
22:04 stderr sri, you fail to understand the difference between syntax and semantics.
22:04 sri hostility sure won't help
22:04 marty stderr--
22:06 stderr marty: so what is this call supposed to return? I'm getting the impression the doc is just as outdated as some others and you just never tried...
22:06 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojoli​cious/Guides/Routing#Named_Routes
22:06 sri i know you've been pointed at those chapters before… but just to be sure
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22:08 sri these parts of the framework have an insane amount of unit tests, it is very very unlikely that there are huge bugs
22:08 stderr oh, certainly. It's not like I hadn't read them before. It's just that this particular call isn't in there. It's just in Mojolicious::Controller. Undocumented.
22:08 marty stderr: I've tried, and succeeded many times using url_for and much more from Mojo.  You seem to be the only one having issues.  You need to stop looking for excuses.  If you found a bug, submit a unit test, it's that simple.
22:09 stderr marty: if you're writing your unit tests without defining in advance what the result of a certain call is supposed to be, you're doing it wrong.
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22:32 GitHub95 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/-QA0SA
22:32 GitHub95 [mojo/master] improved named route documentation - Sebastian Riedel
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22:38 stderr sri, you forgot to delete the unit test for the "named => ..." invocation along with its mention in Mojolicious::Controller
22:39 sri ?
22:40 sri i'm not sure, is that meant to be snarky?
22:40 tempire best to assume unsnarkiness, as a general rule
22:40 sri that's why i'm asking
22:41 stderr It's called sarcasm
22:41 marty Unless there is good reason to pressume snarkyness, which there may be.
22:41 sri ok, it's allright not to get something, but being hostile about it is not acceptable
22:42 tempire stderr: sarcasm is not going to get you anywhere without developing a positive relationship first.
22:43 stderr I'm not being hostile. I asked nicely but was basically told I'm an idiot for doing so. Then, surprise surprise, the case I asked about vanishes from the docs. The one that supposedly was clear to everyone.
22:43 tempire stderr: he was trying to be accommodating to you.
22:43 tempire everyone you've interacted with has been.
22:44 sri the examplei changed is exactly the same before and after my last commit, changes only highlight the arbitrayness
22:44 tempire stderr: I recommend you drop the issue, for the purpose of retaining good will.
22:44 * tempire hugs stderr
22:44 marty group hug!!!!
22:44 purl Cannonball!
22:45 * sri hugs purl
22:45 purl sri: get off me, you botvert!
22:45 * marty pats purl
22:45 purl how condescending
22:45 * tempire sprinkles glitter on everyone
22:45 tempire even purl
22:45 purl i guess even i am terrible
22:45 marty Purl: you rock!
22:45 purl thanks marty :)
22:45 sri botsnack!
22:45 purl :)
22:46 marty oooo, I see a relationship possibility with purl.  Kewl
22:46 marty Purl: Marry me?
22:46 purl marty: bugger all, i dunno
22:46 marty ahhh, turned down again
22:47 stderr Yeah, guys, thanks for your efforts. Time to check out which router to use with Plack...
22:54 stderr left #mojo
23:02 sri purl: karma sri
23:02 purl sri has karma of 219
23:23 * tempire is waiting for an odm before he bothers with mongodb
23:23 * sri hides
23:35 sri hope they add fulltext search soonish to mongodb
23:35 sri seems to be on the list for 2.2
23:42 marty I imagine the mongodb support in Mojo is probably pretty tricky.
23:42 marty It works ok with the current perl driver but a lot of overhead.
23:52 perlrocks Twitter: "Oh, sweet!, @activestate has packed and updated my one night experiment with the webcam and #mojolicious for #stackato: http://t.co/z7xWx9ll" --freekey http://twitter.com/freekey​/status/114849211861839872

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