Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-10-31

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Time Nick Message
00:18 alnewkirk FYI, https://github.com/alnewkirk/WAF-Input-Validation
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02:38 metaperl I'm curious what happens here ( https://github.com/alnewkirk/WAF-Inpu​t-Validation/blob/master/mojolite.pl ) if validation fails, but not curious enough to d/l and try :)
02:38 metaperl you also had the Oogly validation framework
02:39 metaperl for passwords, I have a password_again field and I use jQuery for all my validation
02:40 metaperl "waf" is a python build system, an evolved make :)
02:40 alnewkirk metaperl, http://goo.gl/m8p0s
02:40 alnewkirk metaperl, also WAF is a common acronym for web app framework
02:41 metaperl oh, I had never seen it before your github repo
02:41 alnewkirk jquery for validation is fine, but you still need to do it on the back end
02:41 alnewkirk Validation::Class is flexible enough to be used both in the M and the C
02:42 alnewkirk as for your passwords, field password_again => { matches => 'password' }; should do it
02:43 alnewkirk not curious enough to d/l and try >> copy and paste and try it, takes two secs
02:43 metaperl :) it's late
02:45 metaperl Validation::Class does look quite nice though. Modern look. I tend to post to a different action than the one that rendered the login... e..g action="/post_eval"
02:45 metaperl ah, must install V::C first
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02:46 alnewkirk yup ... :}
02:46 alnewkirk post to whatever you like, thats just a demo
02:49 metaperl i still havent gotten to Moose traits (waitching this build prereqs)
02:50 metaperl Can't locate Validation/Class/Plugin/FormFields.pm in @INC (@INC contains: c:\Users\thequietcenter\prg\​biotrackthc\trunk\Local\lib C:/strawberry/perl/lib C:/strawberry/perl/site/lib C:\strawberry\perl\vendor\lib .) at C:/strawberry/perl/site/lib​/Validation/Class/Sugar.pm line 117.
02:50 alnewkirk Good stuff, I'm gaining a deeper repect for Moose as I learn more
02:50 metaperl i never use all those Moose shortcut modules
02:50 alnewkirk metaperl, that plugin is not bundled with VC
02:50 alnewkirk mainly because it has prereqs irrelevent to core VC
02:51 alnewkirk metaperl, Moose is more than OO shortcutting
02:51 metaperl you should link to this on the mojo wiki
02:51 metaperl alnewkirk: i dont see your pont.. I'm just saying I dont use M, Mo, Moo, Mouse, etc
02:52 alnewkirk wheres the wiki?
02:52 purl somebody said the wiki was http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/wiki/
02:52 alnewkirk [22:50] <metaperl> i never use all those Moose shortcut modules
02:52 alnewkirk ^^ define shortcut module?
02:52 metaperl those modules I listed
02:52 metaperl hmm some nice javascript feedback
02:52 alnewkirk oh, i misunderstood
02:52 metaperl how did that happen
02:52 alnewkirk sorry
02:53 alnewkirk ?
02:53 metaperl this example has validatoin feedback that appears to be javascript
02:55 alnewkirk no, it just uses html tags that modern browser support
02:55 alnewkirk like <input required="required" />
02:55 alnewkirk I know chrome and firefox support that
02:56 alnewkirk cool huh?
02:56 metaperl yes it is quite nice
02:56 metaperl and I guess you are saying it validates form data before committing to database
02:56 metaperl or that it is possible
02:56 metaperl I didnt know about modern tags like that --- jQuery's stock validation module does something similar
02:56 alnewkirk it doesnt do anything with a database
02:57 alnewkirk but my $params = $vc->params; gets you the filtered parameters and you can do what you want with them
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03:38 GitHub126 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/uLB5Dg
03:38 GitHub126 [mojo/master] started new cookbook section about the real-time web - Sebastian Riedel
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03:42 GitHub151 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/XqO6Mg
03:42 GitHub151 [mojo/master] include application loading in example - Sebastian Riedel
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03:44 perlrocks Twitter: "Started a new section in the #mojolicious cookbook, and am taking requests for new recipes. ;) http://t.co/aNUBu4EU #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/130852618259013633
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04:47 GitHub12 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/wz2l3w
04:47 GitHub12 [mojo/master] added HTML5 EventSource recipe to cookbook - Sebastian Riedel
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04:47 sri this is a really cool one
06:03 crab hi
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06:22 MojoGuest445 From: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1277067 (64 hits)
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06:59 GitHub97 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/qF1alQ
06:59 GitHub97 [mojo/master] renamed a few recipes - Sebastian Riedel
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07:41 perlrocks Twitter: "@thespite a Perl/Mojolicious websocket relayer runs on the LAN, a master app sends basic state data which controls the slaves." --alfski_says http://twitter.com/alfski_sa​ys/status/130912332825104384
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07:54 GitHub113 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/O05W8w
07:54 GitHub113 [mojo/master] improved a few event descriptions - Sebastian Riedel
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07:54 sri ok, that should be enough event examples to at least get people started
08:01 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolic​ious/Guides/Cookbook#REAL2DTIME_WEB
08:01 sri at some point those will be moved into their own guide
08:02 sri but i have no clue yet how to explain the gory details of non-blocking io and event loops
08:03 sri some user agent recipers also qualify for the guide
08:03 sri *-r
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08:08 sri perhaps events shouldn't have their own guide, and just be something that's present everywhere
08:10 sri only problem i see is that someone could assume hooks, events and callbacks to be competing concepts without a proper introduction
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08:24 MojoGuest343 From: http://www.google.com.hk/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&​amp;q=websocket%2Bdemo&amp;source=web&amp;cd​=9&amp;ved=0CGUQFjAI&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fde​v.xantus.org%2F&amp;ei=DVuuTqybDciSiAfR-tzOD​w&amp;usg=AFQjCNGw6nZv0wO42uzUnHhWcD0vcKNULg (1 hits)
08:25 MojoGuest343 hg
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09:03 GitHub100 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/aGh_kA
09:03 GitHub100 [mojo/master] reuse Mojo::EventEmitter in Mojolicious::Plugins - Sebastian Riedel
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09:14 GitHub23 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/XRuRXg
09:14 GitHub23 [mojo/master] better hook descriptions - Sebastian Riedel
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09:18 perlrocks Twitter: "Really like this new #html5 #eventsource recipe in the #mojolicious cookbook. http://t.co/YCJSi97C #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/130936716927303680
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09:46 crab that is wacky
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09:49 sri crab: ?
09:52 crab sri: the eventsource recipe. very neat.
09:52 sri ah :)
09:53 crab $self->app->log->on(message => sub { ... }) <- what exactly does this do?
09:53 crab every time something else calls $self->app->log->info($blah), it'll call the sub?
09:53 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojo/Log#message
09:54 sri yes
09:54 crab super.
09:54 sri event stderr/file logging is now just a default subscriber to the message event
09:54 sri s/t//
09:55 crab clearly many things have happened while i was on holiday :-)
09:56 sri oh, i guess you missed the whole moving to events thing :o
09:57 sri there are events all over the place
09:58 sri some of them are really wacky :) http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mo​jo/Transaction/WebSocket#frame
10:02 crab nice.
10:06 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojo/IOLoop#stream # also a little wacky
10:07 sri you could do stuff like my $handle = Mojo::IOLoop->stream($self->t​x->connection)->steal_handle;
10:07 sri or Mojo::IOLoop->stream($self​->tx->connection)->on(read => sub {…}) to log what's going over the wire
10:09 sri heh, you could use that like the log event and stream raw protocol data into a browser window :)
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10:10 crab i wonder if i could significantly improve the streaming part of my http://toroid.org/ams/etc/​mojolicious-http-streaming code now.
10:11 sri ->on_finish is deprecated
10:11 sri $self->on() now passes everything through to $self->tx->on()
10:12 sri i don't quite get why you insist in dropping the connection yourself
10:13 sri you're writing chunks, so the connection could be reused without problems
10:13 sri oh wait, $id is just a timer
10:13 crab i'm just dropping the timer that calls me back every... yes
10:14 crab ->on_finish to ->on(finish => ... is just a mechanical change, right?
10:14 sri i'm sure it can be cleaned up a little, but the logic seems sensible still
10:14 sri yes, just mechanical
10:15 sri and you get new powers
10:15 sri since it allows all transaction events
10:15 sri which are actually not much more ;p
10:15 sri but maybe in the future
10:17 sri some stuff like the request and resume events are mostly for intrnal use, but who knows what use cases people can come up with
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10:50 marcus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFLw-MMiGL8 best mojolicious demo so far.
10:53 marcus best looking at least
10:55 perlrocks Twitter: "The prettiest Mojolicious web sockets demonstration so far, by @alfski_says http://t.co/elEEeDtC" --marcusramberg http://twitter.com/marcusramb​erg/status/130960982842417152
10:56 marcus I feel the need to repepeat this example with 5 ipad 2s
10:56 marcus repepepeat
10:57 marcus damnit, I will have to do it as an iAd then :-o
10:58 marty wow, that is really an impressive bit of code.
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11:31 crab where's the code?
11:31 purl well, the code is farly clear for me :)
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12:20 Vandal how can I check that ua->get() has no errors?
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13:17 foomator $tx->success?
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13:46 hpg301 Hi All.... since mojo has gone > 2 I've been getting error: Feature bundle "5.10.1" is not supported by Perl 5.10.1. Please help.
13:48 ruz works fine on 5.14
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13:52 ruz hpg301: It should be use feature ':5.10';, not 5.10.1
13:53 ruz latest mojo has proper string
13:54 hpg301 ruz: I just tried 2.19 with same error.
13:55 ruz heh
13:56 mattastrophe Is there a "preferred" version of Perl for mojo 2?
13:56 ruz 5.10+
13:57 mattastrophe that'll work :)  thnx
13:57 ruz hpg301: wild guesses: do you have "use 5.10..." if your code?
13:59 ruz s/if/in/
14:00 ruz heh, anyway, bridge on / with callback stoped working after switching to custom namespace
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14:05 judofyr hey #mojo
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14:07 hpg301 ruz: I wasn't clear. The error comes at installation, immediately after 'perl Makefile.PL'. For fun changed line 3 to 'use 5.010000;', now generates Makefile, but 'make test' spews 'Use of uninitialized value $feature_bundle{"5.10"}' errors
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15:13 perlrocks Twitter: "Methods had changed over the surrounding WebSocket [MCPC] Also in Mojolicious 2: In Tokyo servers Amazon EC2 (and I like words ... http://t.co/eSYQOyzY ← Zegapain" (ja) --yorozu_yaji http://twitter.com/yorozu_ya​ji/status/131025988032274432
15:23 metaperl alnewkirk: ping?
15:24 alnewkirk ehlo
15:24 metaperl hey ... how would you say a radio button must be selected for valid form submission?
15:24 metaperl using Validation::Class
15:24 alnewkirk metaperl, you dont ... let me explain
15:25 metaperl ok
15:25 alnewkirk in VC, the field is an input rule, ... the html form field rendering is seperate and irrelevent
15:25 alnewkirk ^^ just for clarity
15:26 alnewkirk the better way to say and understand it is ..
15:26 alnewkirk should the rule require a value or should it be optional
15:27 alnewkirk if the rule is *always* required, the just do - field foobar => { required => 1 }
15:27 alnewkirk else omit the required directive
15:28 alnewkirk if the field is optional but you want to force requirement, see toggling in the POD
15:28 alnewkirk basically $form->validate(qw/foo bar +radio/);
15:28 metaperl ok let's be concrete. Here is a form with a set of radio buttons - http://pastie.org/2788531
15:29 metaperl How would you prevent form submission unless a button is selected?
15:29 metaperl ok let me read what you said above ...
15:30 metaperl oh so it would be just field 'pizzasize' => { required => 1 } ;
15:33 alnewkirk metaperl, yes
15:33 metaperl but what about render_field
15:33 metaperl will it render the set of radio buttons?
15:33 alnewkirk yes provided you specify the options properly
15:34 metaperl wow, that's powerful
15:34 alnewkirk $form->render_field('pizzasize', 'radio', { options => [{ text => '...', value => '...' }] })
15:35 alnewkirk $form->render_field('pizzasize', 'radio', { options => [{ text => '...', value => '...' }], default => 'S' })
15:35 alnewkirk metaperl, thanx, its been months in the making
15:37 metaperl when rendering the form fields, what if the field needs css annotations, like class or id or something?
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15:39 alnewkirk metaperl, I'd use jquery to alter the css, etc, but you could also copy the templates and alter them as you see fit
15:39 alnewkirk the templates are TT so it pretty straightforward
15:39 perlrocks Twitter: "http://t.co/7XW65D33 Mojolicious 2.0: Modern Perl For the Web" --rachadou http://twitter.com/rachadou​/status/131032613560385536
15:42 alnewkirk metaperl, FYI, sorry but you forked the wrong project on GitHub
15:42 alnewkirk you want Validation-Class-Moose
15:42 metaperl oh
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15:57 Vandal is it possible to create anchor tag by link_to or other helper without href?
15:57 judofyr Vandal: <a> without href doesn't behave like a link…
15:58 Vandal so?
15:58 purl or stack overflow (dot com, it's .NET!)
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16:25 Grauwolf how to tell mojolicious::lite not to translate <,>,... to html-codes in the templates?
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16:26 tempire needed: a popular event in the futurama universe
16:28 tempire Grauwolf: <%==
16:28 Grauwolf tempire, thanks
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16:57 ruz $r = $r->bridge('/')->to(cb => ...);
16:57 ruz is it really required to do $r = $r->...?
17:02 ruz it was unexepcted, I thought that bridge changes invocant
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17:03 tempire The $r = $r->bridge() is necessary if you want all future routes to use the bridge.
17:04 tempire The more common usage is: my $authenticated = $r->bridge(…); $authenticated->get('/protected-url')->to(…);
17:16 perlrocks Twitter: ""Mojolicious 2.0 released: Perl real-time web framework - Sebastian Riedel about Perl and the Web" http://t.co/Ka5lEK6M" (ja) --yusukebe http://twitter.com/yusukebe​/status/131056845111566336
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18:05 ruz tempire: understood, re-read guide once again
18:11 ruz strange that with custom namespace defined it's not possible to use empty controller name to mean action in the class
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18:43 marcus tempire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fut​urama_Holiday_Spectacular#Robanukah ?
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18:46 tempire excellent!
18:46 purl EGG-see-lent!
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18:57 xaka where is my "un", huh? )
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19:25 xaka why url_escape does inplace escape instead of returning the new (or original) value? the same for b64_encode and so on. it's so unexpectable and ugly to use. i can't write: print url_escape("hello") because it returns nothing
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19:32 tempire xaka: because it's an object.  b('hello')->url_escape
19:32 xaka tempire: i'm talking about Mojo::Util (sorry for confusing)
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19:33 xaka it exports functions, there is no deal with an object
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19:43 perlrocks Twitter: "And the price for prettiest #mojolicious demo so far goes to @alfski_says, wow. http://t.co/TdfytzRs #perl" --kraih http://twitter.com/kraih/status/131094077700718592
19:46 sri xaka: do not use that module, it is experimental
19:47 xaka sri: i really need that url_escape )
19:47 sri well, it will break at some point
19:47 ruz oops
19:47 xaka oh :( the module is really helpful, but it works in some uncommon way )
19:48 sri experimental means experimental
19:48 xaka i'd use URL instead but it doesn't support auto-url-escaping for query string values
19:49 xaka and i can't pass hash to UserAgent::get so url_escape is the only guy who helps me a lot
19:50 sri Mojo::ByteStream is stable
19:50 perlrocks Twitter: "“@kraih: And the price for prettiest #mojolicious demo so far goes to @alfski_says, wow. http://t.co/jpApg02G #perl”" --sharifulin http://twitter.com/sharifuli​n/status/131095775974400000
19:51 xaka hm, do you really think us->get("url" . [tons of ByteStream calls to escape every value]) will look mojo-way? :-p
19:51 sri what's your point?
19:53 xaka make Mojo::Util stable or extend Mojo::URL to support query-string somehow or ... I'm just trying to find easy way to convert hash into query string
19:53 ruz sri: what if convert functions in Util to dual behaviour and drop experimental mark?
19:54 * ruz also doesn't likes two or more function calls for camelization
19:54 sri i don't know yet what to do with Mojo::Util, that's why it stays experimental, but i will consider your feedback
19:54 ruz inplace++
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19:54 ruz some people don't like inplace or it doesn't look good in particular context
19:54 xaka i like MOjo::Util. As i said the only problem - it works in un-common way, it shouldn't not change value inplace, it has to return a new value instead
19:55 ruz so I advocate for dual context controlled behviour
19:55 xaka all those functions like a filter - input - output
19:56 ruz xaka: if function in void context does inplace conversion and in other contexts returns result, are you ok with that?
19:57 sri dual is not an options
19:57 xaka nope, because inplace means "hidden from user" :)
19:57 sri *-s
19:57 sri it's one or the other
19:57 xaka +1 for return a new value
19:57 xaka at least because i was expecting it till i opened the source code )
19:57 ruz sri: :(
19:59 sri i wonder what the performance loss would be
19:59 ruz sri: for?
19:59 purl for fun.
19:59 xaka ))
20:00 sri returning values is slower than in-place modification in many cases
20:00 xaka i dont think so because it's still needed to allocate a new memory to swap values
20:01 ruz sri: current/inplace-dual or current/return?
20:01 xaka it allocates and frees memory in any case
20:01 ruz xaka: it's slower 2-3 times probably
20:01 ruz I checked a few years ago
20:03 perlrocks Twitter: "Mojolicious - Perl real-time web framework http://t.co/oYpuZAOu A next generation web framework for the Perl programming language." (ja) --garterblue http://twitter.com/garterblu​e/status/131099064216469504
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20:06 sri yes it is slightly slower
20:07 sri for 100000 url_escape it jumps from "1,398 total" to "1,598 total"
20:08 xaka i'd say "nothing" )
20:10 ruz sri: implementation of url and html escapes are slow so difference is small
20:11 sri well, escaping is the most performance relevant function
20:11 ruz in url escape pattern compiled every time even if custom pattern is not provided
20:12 sri good point
20:12 purl nice and sharp
20:14 ruz also, I'm not sure that "substr $_[0], 0, 1, '';" in html escape moves pointer instead of copying whole thing
20:15 sri hmm, now the new url_escape is 4 times faster
20:15 xaka ruz: because it's still C code inside, it'll copy it in any case, the same for inplace vs return logic. In return case it just keeps +1 variable
20:18 ruz xaka: it's possible that substr, that called for every character in the string, moves tail every time it's called
20:19 ruz so it's n(1+n)/2 characters moved
20:19 ruz depends on how substr implemented in perl
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20:24 sri hmm, i've been looking through the code, and i don't think changing Mojo::Util would make any of our own code more pretty
20:28 sri for internal use we get more benefits from in-place
20:45 sri hmm, nope, i can't seem to make url_escape any faster, even by handling the regex differently
20:50 ruz checked substr in perl core, it moves string window, no data moves
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20:59 xaka sri: i don't care about internals, Mojo::Util is usefull, but need some minor changes to make it completed
20:59 sri well, i do care
21:00 ruz sri: why do you object duals?
21:02 sri ruz: what would be the point?
21:02 xaka does it mean that Mojo code should be wonderful and user's code should be like a peace of sht? :)
21:03 sri Mojo::Util contains utilities for internal use
21:03 sri it is not meant for you
21:04 ruz sri: make people happy, those who don't like inplace converting function
21:04 sri if you want its utilities that's another story
21:04 sri ruz: it's a lot more code, twice the amount of tests, slower...
21:04 ruz sri: I'm in this discussion as recently started new project and quickly ended up in need for html_escape
21:05 xaka i believe i'm not the onle one who wants it
21:05 sri xaka: you want it for all the wrong reasons though
21:05 ruz sri: not that much slower and code is +1 line per function probably, let me try
21:05 sri Mojo::URL has all you want
21:06 sri ruz: twice the amount of tests
21:06 ruz yes
21:06 ruz :)
21:06 sri i'm very much opposed to dual
21:06 sri magical stuff for such low level functions is not nice
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21:09 Akron Oh ... I now have to rename all my "on"-hooks as "->on('on_" is ugly. :(
21:10 sri Akron: it's not!
21:10 * sri loves ->on
21:10 Akron Hm ... "->on(before_" is ugly as well.
21:11 sri you're doing it all wrong
21:11 xaka sri: so where is that amazing "un" as an opposite to "on" ;)
21:11 Akron Am I?
21:11 sri xaka: it's not gonna happen
21:12 sri the discussion about the Mojo::EventEmitter api ended a few days ago, now it stays the way it is
21:12 xaka sure it isn't, people like to type unsubscribe every time
21:12 sri we'll collect feedback for a few months and see
21:12 xaka do you realy need feedbacks for "un"?
21:13 sri that's what i just said
21:13 sri and nobody beyond you has any strong feelings about unsubscribe
21:13 sri s/beyond/besides/
21:14 xaka how many of 104 have even said something to this channel? 1%
21:14 xaka most people are not so public, they like to listen and be quite. dunno why
21:14 Akron Nobody likes the 1%!
21:15 xaka sri: but still i'm not talking about me. i'm talking about extjs, jquery, ... - they all have "un" and it's fantastic. it' not about "xaka wants", it's about - "world expects it and knows it"
21:17 xaka Akron ruz - what do you guys think about unsubscribe vs un?
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21:18 MojoGuest6 test
21:19 xaka MojoGuest6: what about you?
21:19 Akron In fact I like unsubscribe better. "un" is just a negation particle without any self contained meaning.
21:20 Akron But I am now struggling with "on" for hooks ... :-/
21:23 Akron Ah - "hook" will stay there to jump to "->plugins->on"?
21:25 Akron Okay - in that case I am fine with renaming.
21:32 xaka sri: is it safe to upgrade from 1.84-1 to the latest release?
21:38 ruz xaka: nothing stops you from aliasing any method, i like long names
21:39 xaka ruz: i like aliasing, but i have no right to commit into Mojo repo :)
21:39 ruz in your own project
21:40 ruz just inject it into mojo class
21:40 ruz or create Mojo...::Plugin::Xaka
21:41 xaka to do it all my objects have to be inherited from my own emitemitter which is based on mojo. i dont like write wrappers around almost compeleted frameworks
21:42 ruz inject it into mojo space, dont subclass
21:42 ruz evil, but does the job without many chnages
21:46 tempire xaka: the way to get sri to implement something he's not sure about is to 1) have a bunch of people agree with you, 2) fork an implementation, and start using it yourself, and 3) contribute over time in some other way, so you have a positive rep.
21:46 tempire do all those things, and you'll be the bees knees
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21:46 tempire maybe even a ponycorn
21:47 xaka tempire: contributing something while an author doesn't agree with you is a bad idea. and what about people - i said already - almost quite as a silence
21:48 tempire I mean fork and clone on github, not fork the project under another name.
21:50 ruz does order of routes matter?
21:55 sri xaka: it is my job to disagree
21:55 sri if you have a majority behind your suggestion i will gladly change my stance, like i always do
21:57 xaka sure, i have html5 world and modern frameworks behind me, but it doesn't work either :)
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21:57 sri a majority within this community
21:58 sri if you can convince others that it's a good idea you convince me
21:59 sri in fact, so far i've heard more often "i like unsubscribe" rather than "i'd prefer un"
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22:10 tempire ruz: yes, order matters
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22:26 ruz can not find way to do layout inheritance
22:50 ruz br, shit, how to wrap content and pass it further :(
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22:50 ruz % extends 'foo';\n<div class="content"><%= content %></div>
22:51 ruz this doesn't work
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23:44 sri interesting, for real apps there seems to be not much of a difference between in-place and return values
23:57 sri it's a lot less code though in the end
23:57 sri return values might actually win
23:59 xaka "a = function(a)" is as simple as "function(a)", but has more benefits, especially if you need to do concats, sprintf, "return ..." and other logic

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