Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-11-10

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02:52 rsimoes Is it safe to assume that the interface to Mojo::Cache will be stable, if not the guts?
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03:54 ispy_ Hi everyone, I'm sure this is a silly question. But how do I check to see if $self->param('name') is a blank string or not? $self->param('name')  eq '' doesn't seem to work. I'm checking to see if it's empty. Any help would be appreciated...
04:03 ispy_ nevermind, fixed it.. duh...
04:03 ispy_ haha
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06:01 tempire rsimoes: it's experimental, so it could change.  if you use it, speak up and say how you use it.
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08:53 marcus tempire: are you?
08:53 purl i think are you is Seattle?
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09:53 GitHub27 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/UkMBwA
09:53 GitHub27 [mojo/master] fixed small route caching bug - Sebastian Riedel
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09:55 sri rsimoes: Mojo::Cache is very experimental, don't touch it
09:58 sri the route caching fix can be significant if you're running lite apps in production
09:58 sri for a tiny hello world route it's a 100 rps difference on my laptop
09:59 sri and it only gets better the more routes you have
10:01 sri normal apps were not affected btw
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13:01 judofyr sri: here?
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13:23 GitHub22 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/74rQkw
13:23 GitHub22 [mojo/master] improved Mojo::Content::Single and Mojo::Content::MultiPart parsers to reuse events - Sebastian Riedel
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13:26 sri the read event just got a lot more versatile :)
13:27 crab it can read mail?
13:27 sri not yet!
13:27 purl well volunteered!
13:27 * sri hugs purl
13:27 * purl flees!
13:28 sri but plugins can hook into the read event now and do *stuff* with the chunks without affecting the parsers in any way
13:28 sri previously it was a little destructive
13:30 sri i like that all events are now side effect free
13:31 sri you shouldn't have to worry about breaking parsers just by adding some hooks that log diagnostics information
13:34 sri what i don't like about events so far is that a lot of people seem to be using them, but nobody tells me for what -.-
13:35 sri speak up or i break them! :)
13:39 judofyr sri: events? I hook into UserAgent-events and time them
13:39 judofyr sri: although I fear it's not really precise :/
13:39 judofyr but at least I see what runs in parallel vs serial
13:39 sri that totally sounds like something i will break at some point
13:41 judofyr :(
13:45 judofyr sri: I'm going to hold a lighting talk at a Ruby meetup about "What can we learn from Perl (and Mojolicious)?" do you have any good points? what do miss in Ruby?
13:46 sri WHERE IS THE LOVE?
13:46 purl It's a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun.
13:47 sri show them perldoc and the quality of perl documentation in general?
13:47 sri mix in some oneliners
13:48 judofyr sri: meh, Ruby people don't care about oneliners, they have irb
13:48 sri meh, i don't care about REPLs
13:48 sri i have oneliners!
13:48 judofyr exactly
13:50 judofyr sri: I think I'm going to mention Mojolicious more than Perl. many of the good things in Perl (e.g. "use") can't easily be implemented in Ruby
13:50 judofyr but Mojolicious is simply a library
13:52 sri did you read some of crazier perl shit yet?
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13:52 sri higher order perl for example?
13:52 judofyr higher order perl? nope?
13:52 sri http://hop.perl.plover.com
13:53 judofyr and I haven't really grokked globs…
13:53 sri there is soooo much to know about perl
13:53 judofyr true
13:53 judofyr but globs turns up everywhere in "funky hacks"
13:54 sri they are rather boring once you grok them
13:54 judofyr I guess so
13:56 judofyr sri: I guess I'm going to mention use + backward-compatibility in the Perl-section
13:57 * sri nods
13:57 judofyr I think that's something we could learn in the Ruby world
13:57 judofyr sri: and that "Mojolicious is more like a library than a framework"
13:57 judofyr which I think is very useful
13:57 sri that's CPAN tradition
13:57 judofyr e.g. you can always "require YourApp"
13:57 judofyr yeah
13:58 judofyr sri: btw, how does `use MyLiteApp` work? does it mess up?
13:58 sri might as well mention http://metacpan.org
13:59 judofyr sri: I'm mostly "meh" about CPAN actually. yes, it's a nice library of packages, but they're not all optimal. and you easily end up with the "OMG I'm downloading the internet"-feeling
13:59 judofyr it's good, but not breathtaking
13:59 judofyr but I really like module/package-handling in Perl
14:00 judofyr and that you can e.g. import methods into one file
14:00 sri use MyLiteApp, mostly works, it's complicated though
14:00 judofyr I really like the "every file lives in its own scope" that Perl and Python does
14:03 judofyr sri: also, I love how Mojolicious don't try too hard to work together with Plack/other-standard but really embraces event-driven architecture
14:05 judofyr sri: I feel many Ruby frameworks are stuck with Rack
14:06 judofyr so people have started writing non-blocking frameworks which are intended to be used *only* where you need it (e.g. parallel stuff, websockets)
14:07 judofyr I love how Mojolicious works intuitive with both parallel and non-parallel requests
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14:07 GitHub172 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/vp00iA
14:07 GitHub172 [mojo/master] added experimental upgrade event to Mojo::Transaction::HTTP - Sebastian Riedel
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14:08 sri making both blocking and non-blocking work is hard though, not sure we have the right solution yet
14:10 judofyr sri: maybe. do you have more ideas? :)
14:10 sri it's kinda funny, perl folks are just starting to adopt Plack (perl port of rack), and we are working on the next thing already
14:11 judofyr heh, people in the Ruby community has been annoyed by the limitations of Rack for a looooong time
14:12 judofyr but it doesn't really matter in most CRUD apps
14:12 judofyr so most people don't care about it
14:12 sri true
14:12 judofyr but I agree that we've kinda stopped innovating (err, I mean, copying from Python) since Rack
14:12 sri it solves the portable crud app problem very well
14:13 judofyr Webmachine is the only thing I've seen that tries to innovate: https://github.com/seancribbs/webmachine-ruby
14:13 sri i actually like Goliath.rb
14:14 judofyr with Webmachine you specify resources. so they respond to e.g. #last_modified
14:14 sri it lacks syntax sugar, but the acrchitecture is quite neat
14:14 judofyr or #encodings_provided
14:15 sri webmachine is from erlang though ;p
14:15 judofyr sure
14:15 judofyr Sean Cribbs is a Rubyist though :P
14:15 judofyr but yeah, I see your point
14:16 judofyr sri: I never liked the "welcome; everything is async here" approach to Goliath.rb
14:16 judofyr or maybe it has changed lately…
14:17 judofyr ugh, it still uses the ugly Rack-async hacks though
14:17 judofyr I'd love to see something that dares to say "goodbye" to Rack
14:22 judofyr sri: also, why does it seem like you have a rather … bad? reputation in the Perl world?
14:23 judofyr not code-wise, but rather behaviour-wise? or am I completely wrong?
14:23 sri it's true, not sure why exactly
14:24 sri prolly a mix of multiple factors
14:27 sri not much i can do about it though, so i embrace my outlaw status :)
14:27 judofyr :)
14:33 Patterner "(in cleanup) Can't call method "FILENO" on an undefined value at blib/lib/Mojo/IOWatcher.pm line 36 during global destruction." is harmless?
14:33 sri it is, but PLEASE FIX IT! :)
14:34 sri it's from the tls tests right?
14:35 Patterner think so. let me check
14:35 Patterner t/mojo/ioloop_tls.t
14:35 sri IO::Socket::SSL seems to lose the actual file descriptor too early sometimes
14:36 sri (during global destruction)
14:36 sri which makes fileno $handle not work
14:37 sri you're like the 3rd person this week asking about it btw -.-
14:37 Patterner what happens when you call "poll->remove(undef)" ?
14:37 judofyr sri: fix it! fix it!
14:38 * judofyr cheers for sri
14:38 sri judofyr: couldn't think of something portable
14:38 Patterner I'd probably use "return unless $handle;" before the "delete …" line
14:38 Patterner unless remove() is really needed later
14:38 sri it has to work for all kinds of handles, not just IO::Socket::SSL
14:39 sri Patterner: but $handle is true
14:39 sri just the nested handle in IO::Socket::SSL is gone
14:40 sri it's a "fileno $handle" call that doesn't work
14:40 Patterner so the message is misleading...
14:40 sri because the IO::Socket::SSL instance has lost it's nested handle
14:40 sri ($handle *is* the IO::Socket::SSL instance)
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14:41 sri file $handle prolly works like $handle->FILENO internally or so
14:41 sri s/file/fileno/
14:44 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob​/master/lib/Mojo/IOWatcher.pm#L36
14:44 sri that's the line btw
14:45 sri the fileno goes wrong because $handle is true but already half dead
14:48 crab it's a walking tls-zombie
14:48 sri it is
14:49 judofyr it is known
14:49 Patterner "shoot it in the head."
15:06 crab "before it reaches you"
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15:59 GitHub93 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/CNt0ow
15:59 GitHub93 [mojo/master] fixed body method in Mojo::Message - Sebastian Riedel
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16:48 GitHub66 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Pa7FJw
16:48 GitHub66 [mojo/master] added experimental auto_upgrade attribute to Mojo::Asset::Memory - Sebastian Riedel
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17:52 tempire Can the session expiration only be set from within an action?
17:52 tempire app->session(expires => …) doesn't seem to register
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17:53 GitHub42 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/bA7wWQ
17:53 GitHub42 [mojo/master] use body method for streaming recipe - Sebastian Riedel
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17:54 sri tempire: that makes no sense
17:54 purl Chewbacca!
17:54 * sri pats purl
17:54 * purl bites!
17:54 * sri bites purl back!
17:54 * purl stabs sri in the face
17:54 * sri stabs purl back!
17:54 tempire which part?
17:55 sri app->session
17:55 tempire I was expecting app->session to set the default for the life of the app
17:55 sri yea, makes absolutely no sense
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17:56 * tempire doesn't follow
17:56 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious#HELPERS
17:57 tempire makes sense to me.  I don't care enough to argue the point, though.
17:57 sri i challenge you to try and implement it :)
17:57 * tempire defaults
17:57 purl defaults is easier to read later
17:59 sri rule of thumb, just don't call helpers on app
18:00 sri it's one of those things you should only do when you know exactly why
18:00 tempire I wasn't thinking of it as a helper, so much as a hard-coded way to set the session expiration time.
18:00 tempire as a helper, you're right, it wouldn't make any sense.
18:00 sri did you mean app->sessions?
18:01 sri app->sessions->default_expiration or so
18:01 tempire ah.  yeah, that's what I was looking for.
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18:28 sri wonder if we should just deprecate the ability to call helpers on app
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18:30 sri i kinda liked it for oneliners and tests
18:30 sri but it seems to cause a lot of confusion, and if even tempire gets it wrong :/
18:31 tempire the only time it's used for one-liners is with ojo, right?
18:32 sri i also use it with eval
18:32 sri ./myapp.pl eval -v 'app->some_helper'
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18:39 sri on the other hand, helpers like dumper and config are rather useful
18:39 sri $app->log->debug($app->dumper({foo => 'bar'}));
18:40 sri ./myapp.pl eval -v 'app->text_field(foo => "bar")'
18:41 sri not to mention database helpers and the like
18:44 sri hmm
18:44 * sri pokes tempire
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18:51 tempire seems like an awful lot of flexibility to kill just for session confusion.
18:52 tempire can you detect whether the helper is being called from app within the helper?
18:52 elb0w_ Speaking of sessions, are there any more docs then what ive found on them?
18:52 sri tempire: nope
18:52 tempire elb0w_: that depends, have you found all of them?
18:53 elb0w_ I dunno,http://search.cpan.org/~sri/Mojolici​ous-2.26/lib/Mojolicious/Sessions.pm
18:53 tempire crab wrote a good overview of sessions
18:53 tempire http://toroid.org/ams/etc/m​ojolicious-session-cookies
18:53 elb0w_ yeah just literally found that
18:53 sri the growing guide
18:53 purl the growing guide is probably the continuation
18:53 elb0w_ I am using mojo as a backend for this mobile app
18:54 elb0w_ its working pretty well. Sessions just get a bit annoying
18:54 elb0w_ calling db to validate everytime
18:54 elb0w_ guess I cant really avoid that
18:57 tempire sri: I lean toward only having regular helpers available in the action.  App helpers should be a different thing.
18:58 sri tempire: i can't think of a single helper that i would want to only be available for the app
18:58 sri just controller and controller/app
19:00 tempire I think it's probably fine to just add a comment/link to default_expiration in the docs where session(expires =>) is mentioned.
19:03 tempire http://git.io/ls2JtQ
19:09 sri tempire: sounds sensible
19:14 sri tempire: oh… i think i'm supposed to say "well volunteered!" :)
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19:49 GitHub29 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FkyxmQ
19:49 GitHub29 [mojo/master] improved streaming recipe slightly - Sebastian Riedel
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20:02 sri perl -Mojo -E'my $ua = Mojo::UserAgent->new; $ua->on(start => sub { pop->res->content->on(read => sub { say "Chunk:", length(pop), " bytes" }) }); say $ua->get("mojolicio.us")->res->body'
20:02 sri some fun new possibilities with the read event
20:03 sri since it has no more side effects
20:05 sri perl -Mojo -E'my $ua = Mojo::UserAgent->new; $ua->on(start => sub { pop->res->content->on(read => sub { say "Chunk: ", length(pop), " bytes" }) }); say "All: ", length($ua->get("mojolicio.us")->res->body), " bytes"'
20:05 sri a little simpler ;p
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20:07 sri the content parser is now a default read event
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21:05 gizzlon I'm trying to do this: https://metacpan.org/module/Mojoliciou​s::Guides::Cookbook#Streaming-response
21:05 gizzlon but read only fires once .. tips?
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21:09 sri gizzlon: try a bigger file ;p
21:10 sri it fires 7 times here
21:11 sri see also my oneliner above
21:11 sri it's almost the same, just keeps the normal parser active to process the content twice
21:12 gizzlon ah, it's an mp3 stream ..
21:12 gizzlon k
21:16 gizzlon ^ get the same, fires once
21:16 sri force smaller chunks, MOJO_CHUNK_SIZE=10
21:17 sri it happily eats like 150k at once by default
21:17 gizzlon still one, but 10 bytes this time
21:18 sri which version?
21:18 purl it has been said that which version is that?
21:19 gizzlon 2.19 , no EV
21:19 sri read event got a lot of fixes recently, better try 2.26
21:20 gizzlon k
21:21 gizzlon would hav upgraded, but did'nt think it was a bug
21:21 sri i've just rewritten most of the read event code
21:22 sri also make sure tests pass
21:22 sri no EV is good, unit tests run with the poll backend by default
21:24 gizzlon ok, installed it to test.. still no luck
21:25 sri that stuff is rather well tested, so i would rule out a mojolicious bug
21:25 sri what platform anyway?
21:26 sri or actually, nopaste "mojo version"
21:27 gizzlon installed EV to test, can I forece the mojo loop?
21:28 sri MOJO_IOWATCHER=Mojo::IOWatcher
21:28 sri MOJO_IOLOOP_DEBUG=1 will tell you which one is used
21:30 gizzlon http://pastebin.com/PPk0kjKv
21:40 gizzlon actually, it happens on ubuntu as well
21:40 sri gizzlon: what the hell, perl 5.13? Oo
21:41 gizzlon ;)
21:42 gizzlon code + output: http://pastebin.com/z8PG3quW
21:42 gizzlon maybe I do something stupid ;)  I don't understand what that code does ^
21:43 sri just tested on a fresh ubuntu box
21:43 sri works flawless
21:43 sri i've just tweeted an example
21:43 gizzlon well, acutally, that one is not so bad, but the one in the cookbook, with the "unsubscibe" ..
21:43 sri test with it
21:43 gizzlon k
21:44 sri MOJO_CHUNK_SIZE=50 perl -Ilib read.pl
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21:44 sri i had to enforce small chunks, but it works
21:44 tempire what are the most common problems people have with sessions?
21:44 * tempire pokes everyone
21:45 sri calling app->session and app->sessions
21:45 sri -.-
21:45 tempire yeah.  other than that :)
21:45 sri that's pretty much the only complaints i remember ;p
21:45 sri i fucking love events
21:46 tempire me too
21:48 sri but i'm starting to use unsubscribe more often now, we might consider a shorter name
21:48 tempire lulz
21:49 sri now that the content parsers are just default events… $tx->res->content->unsubscribe('read') will be common
21:49 sri it disables the default parser that puts all content in asset files or multipart parses
21:50 tempire wait, so unsubscribing disables the default behavior?
21:50 sri it can
21:50 tempire huh
21:50 tempire interesting
21:51 sri because default behavior is just a read event registered by default since 2.26 :)
21:51 sri you can now really have parallel content parsers
21:52 sri that get equal rights
21:52 sri collect diagnostics information live during streaming multipart uploads
21:52 sri registered via plugin
21:53 sri without interfering with anything
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21:54 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/m​aster/lib/Mojo/Content/Single.pm#L12
21:54 sri the default (single) read event
21:54 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/mas​ter/lib/Mojo/Content/MultiPart.pm#L10
21:54 sri same for multipart
21:56 sri before when you registered a read event it would disable the parser
21:57 sri but now you can hook into it and process the same information while keeping the parsers working
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21:59 tempire \o/
22:00 tempire time for a new hack of the day!
22:00 sri not this week, gonna hack on mongodb :)
22:01 tempire even better.
22:01 sri if i remember correctly this week was actually your turn
22:01 tempire Going to record the audio tomorrow.
22:01 sri \o/
22:01 tempire video is already done
22:01 * sri jups up and down
22:01 * tempire jups too
22:02 sri at some point i think we need to formalize the early dispatch trick, maybe as a plugin
22:02 tempire They were getting too long, and I started dreading them.
22:02 tempire so this one is shorter.
22:03 tempire going to try to make them short and sweet
22:03 sri neat
22:03 sri what's the topic?
22:03 purl the topic is probably something about debugging emergencies in production.
22:03 tempire stash, flash, sessions
22:03 sri oh, important one
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22:04 tempire next one was supposed to be databases
22:04 * sri hides under desk
22:04 sri just…umm…take your time with this one… don't rush it!
22:06 sri i'm running out of ideas for examples too though… need the mongodb driver
22:07 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/​t/mojolicious/upload_stream_lite_app.t#L26
22:07 sri explaining that one will be really scary
22:09 tempire http://memegenerator.net/cache/ins​tances/400x/10/11077/11343263.jpg
22:09 sri BOTH!
22:09 tempire I'll just skip that one.
22:10 tempire the next one after that is testing.
22:10 tempire that will be super easy, I think.
22:12 tempire Then maybe templates
22:13 tempire or client-side tools like ::JSON, :DOM, and ::UserAgent
22:14 tempire then database, then full mojo apps.
22:14 sri maybe some ajax with jquery or websockets mixed in? :o
22:14 tempire after those basics are done, then on to websockets and events
22:15 tempire which hopefully by that time will be settled.
22:15 tempire It will be neat to say, "want to learn mojolicious?  watch 40 minutes of video.  done"
22:16 sri indeed
22:16 tempire I'm actually excited about the events.
22:16 tempire that mojocast could serve as a solid intro to events as a whole.
22:16 tempire more people need to understand them.
22:17 sri hard to explain, looking forward to it :)
22:18 sri fitting it into a 10 minute cast seems crazy
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23:05 MojoGuest242 From: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&​amp;q=irc%20html5&source=web&cd=5&a​mp;ved=0CD0QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.x​antus.org%2F&ei=jVi8TvmlEpHQsgacwu2XAw&​amp;usg=AFQjCNGw6nZv0wO42uzUnHhWcD0vcKNULg&​amp;sig2=0Q8N8Js4nIOqRA97h1i45w&cad=rja (1 hits)
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23:15 xaka how to run <script> test <test> in verbose mode to see application error and the reason of HTTP 500?
23:18 xaka h e l p
23:24 rsimoes speak you sense
23:24 xaka rsimoes: ah?
23:28 marty xaka:  your question is hard to understand.  Can you ask a different way?
23:29 xaka marty: mojo has "test" command which you can use to run tests. When i run tests and some requests return http 500 (internal exception happens) i want to know what exactly happened
23:30 bonzairob does mojo have a python backend?
23:30 bonzairob heh, lets you send blank messages
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23:31 xaka marty: nope? still hard? :)
23:32 marty xaka:  There should be something in the log file.
23:33 marty Using morbo?  Running in development mode?
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23:36 xaka it's empty even if MOJO_LOG_LEVEL is "debug"
23:36 xaka yes, it's morbo + dev mode
23:37 xaka what i see is only "500 Internal Server Error"
23:37 marty Oppps sorry.  brain freeze.  You're running test so are you running something like 'mojo test t/test.t'
23:37 xaka correct
23:38 xaka "script/my-application test <file>"
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23:39 tempire mojo test --verbose
23:39 xaka doesn't work :(
23:39 tempire does prove work?
23:39 tempire prove -v, I mean
23:40 xaka prove even less helpful
23:41 tempire prove -v ?
23:41 purl prove -v is basic perl knowledge
23:41 xaka yes, nothing, just "got 500, expected 200"
23:42 xaka when i use morbo + --verbose i see the same in stdout as in log file, but still without stack trace or whatever
23:45 marty Hmm, not sure.  I think I'd find the failing test and run it against morbo to get a stack trace.  I'm sure there must be a better way, but I do not know it.

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