Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2011-12-16

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:20 TrOx mojolicious \o/
01:21 crab hi
01:21 purl hey, crab.
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01:46 GitHub35 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/NcxUaw
01:46 GitHub35 [mojo/master] updated Changes - Sebastian Riedel
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01:46 sri crab: everything is usually ordered alphabetically, not chronological
01:55 crab ok.
01:55 sri and yea, status is just the CGI hack
01:57 sri i'm not exactly sure why it ever existed, or why that guy noticed it is missing
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02:02 GitHub2 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/_Tl-9g
02:02 GitHub2 [mojo/master] better CGI tests - Sebastian Riedel
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02:03 sri anyway, if it's there we might as well use it everywhere
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02:19 GitHub63 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/tCP8Jg
02:19 GitHub63 [mojo/master] make alphabetical order a rule - Sebastian Riedel
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02:22 sri better explicit than implicit
02:24 TrOx sri yes !
02:25 TrOx sri explicit is better !!
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02:30 GitHub104 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/PDNprw
02:30 GitHub104 [mojo/master] no multiple sentences on the same line - Sebastian Riedel
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02:30 sri i've seen marcus do this, i think it makes POD much less maintainable
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02:35 sri considering single line break has no effect on the generated output
02:36 crab that is weird.
02:36 sri what is?
02:36 crab saying each sentence must be on its own line. (i get the rationale, though.)
02:37 sri feel free to convince me that multiple sentences on one line are good
02:41 sri tempire/marcus: thoughts?
02:41 purl Moonlight shines through the dark night / clouds move overhead, casting shadows / dancing in the firelight
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02:44 tempire I'm not sure I understand the issue.
02:44 sri https://github.com/marcusramberg/Moj​olicious-Plugin-OAuth2/blob/master/l​ib/Mojolicious/Plugin/OAuth2.pm#L129
02:45 sri you get to reformat paragraphs instead of sentences when you make a change
02:46 crab tempire: if you have sentences on separate lines, then your diffs are always smaller and neater when you change the wording in one or two places.
02:46 crab otherwise if you reflow the paragraph, you can get one big --- block and one big +++ block and reviewing what actually changed is a lot harder.
02:47 sri oh, i've not even considered diffs yet
02:49 crab sri: just two sides of the same coin, really.
02:49 crab less effort to edit <=> less effort to review
02:49 sri true
02:49 crab but, more effort to write. just a matter of getting used to it, though.
02:50 sri maybe for native english speakers, i actually change and reformat sentences a lot while writing
02:51 sri (at least in POD)
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02:53 sri damn, those SOPA horror stories are scary
03:00 tempire referencee?
03:00 tempire *reference
03:00 sri http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/c​ompost/post/the-nightmarish-sopa-hear​ings/2011/12/15/gIQA47RUwO_blog.html
03:01 tempire I want to cry today
03:01 sri and of course my favorite https://twitter.com/#!/SteveKi​ngIA/status/147371129177255936
03:01 tempire between the current live debate, the NDAA, and SOPA, I don't know why china hasn't destroyed us all yet.
03:02 sri that congressman just surfs the web while SOPA is being discussed
03:03 tempire at least before their bubble bursts and they collapse
03:06 crab sri: wow
03:06 crab i can imagine being bored in a congressional hearing, but saying you're goofing off on twitter...
03:07 tempire I don't actually mind that tweet
03:07 tempire as long as he knows the issue in and out.
03:07 crab which he does?
03:07 tempire not knowing about that congressman, I can't say
03:08 tempire the republican debate has the google instant message sound whenever the candidate should wrap up.
03:09 tempire it's really disconcerting.
03:09 tempire I've been looking for a chat window for 30 minutes.
03:09 sri heh
03:09 cfedde congress' favorite sport.  Right after "blame the victim"
03:18 sri http://www.salon.com/2011/12/15/obama_to_​sign_indefinite_detention_bill_into_law/ # you americans sure love your freedoms
03:19 tempire indeed.
03:19 purl indubitably
03:19 tempire we're like the uk up in here now.
03:19 cfedde we hate other peoples freedoms more than we love our own.
03:19 tempire it seems to be the nature of comfort-driven societies
03:20 * tempire cries
03:21 crab there there, it'll all be better when michelle bachman is your president.
03:22 sri :)
03:22 * tempire bawls
03:22 cfedde yay! Insane milf wanabe for prez
03:22 tempire I think I'd vote for the hot moderator
03:23 cfedde we should use the voting technology they use on dancing with the stars.
03:25 * tempire turns off debate
03:25 * tempire takes solace in technology
03:28 tempire I'm following the chain of actions, and I'm looking @ IOWatcher->_one_tick, which seems to be the core of everything.
03:28 sri one core, EV has a different one
03:28 tempire right
03:29 tempire $poll is working with the system poll, but I'm curious about the $handles->{fileno $_}->{write} cb
03:29 tempire and ->{read}
03:29 tempire trying to track down exactly what that is
03:29 sri those are the callbacks associated with the read/write events of that file descriptor
03:30 sri they get defined with ->watch i think
03:30 tempire ooooh
03:37 tempire Mojolicious->start, Mojolicious::Commands->start, Mojolicious::Command->start, Mojolicious::Command->run, Mojo::Server::Daemon->prepare_ioloop, ::Server::Daemon->start
03:37 tempire where does ->watch get called?
03:38 tempire IOWatcher->watch, I mean
03:38 sri uch lower level
03:38 sri *+m
03:38 sri in the Mojo::IOLoop::* classes
03:38 sri which get used by Mojo::IOLoop and which then gets used by Mojo::Server::Daemon
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03:41 tempire read/write handle via ->watch are assigned in ->_accept
03:41 tempire which seems to be called by ->resume
03:41 tempire trying to track down where resume is initially called
03:43 tempire ah, probably ->_listening, which is called when the daemon is initially set up, and whenever daemons are reactivated
03:44 sri there are two handles involved
03:44 sri one is the listen socket, the other the accepted one
03:45 sri the _accept code is primarily for TLS, which has its own handshake that needs to be handled non-blocking
03:45 sri for the IOWatcher layer the TLS handshake looks like normal I/O
03:46 sri after that Mojo::IOLoop::Stream is in control of the handle
03:49 sri (accepted one is not reaaly just one, could be a thousand)
03:49 tempire hmm.  this is going to take a while.  I'm not sure how all the layers interact.
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03:49 sri Mojo::IOLoop glues them together
03:50 sri think i would start at the top and follow the layers down
03:51 tempire That's where I started.  thought I had an idea, but then I couldn't account for ::Stream, and realized I missed a bunch.
03:51 sri useragent/daemon -> Mojo::IOloop -> Mojo::IOLoop::* -> Mojo::IOWatcher
03:51 sri the ::Client/::Server classes basically prepare handles for ::Stream to process
04:04 sri btw. if you think i'm going too far with the codingguidelines or you'd like some additions, just say something please
04:05 sri can't help myself, i like everything to be in order, i'm german :/
04:08 crab a friend of mine makes fun of me for being particular for parking exactly parallel to the lines (or failing that, perpendicular to the kerb)
04:08 crab he says i should live in ottobrunn, where everyone is like me
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04:20 MojoGuest944 From: http://blog.kraih.com/perl-is-ready-for-html5 (77 hits)
04:21 MojoGuest944 test chat
04:21 MojoGuest944 this is nice
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04:21 MojoGuest944 hi there
04:21 MojoGuest924 test?
04:21 purl test is not there :-/
04:22 MojoGuest924 e
04:22 MojoGuest944 oh sorry... just found this on the web
04:23 MojoGuest924 if it can go directly into their room then this would work great
04:23 MojoGuest944 yes
04:23 MojoGuest924 its probably able to be coded like that
04:23 MojoGuest924 right
04:23 MojoGuest924 this one is a set room
04:24 * tempire moves full screen macvim to portrait-mode monitor
04:26 traderos hows this?
04:38 sri crab: i can confirm that
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05:26 sri tempire: how long does it take until the voting results are known?
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05:39 sri oh wait
05:39 sri SOPA appears to have passed
05:39 sri :S
05:40 sri if i understand it correctly obama just has to sign it now
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05:42 sri http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57343951/sopa​-tweet-triggers-political-explosion-delays-vote/
05:44 sri confusing
05:44 purl confusing is my know-it-all attitude or the french mac keyboard layout
05:45 sri purl: yes, your know-it-all attitude is very confusing
05:45 purl ...but purl's know-it-all attitude is confusing...
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06:44 crab wtf
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07:06 agus___ From: http://blog.kraih.com/perl-is-ready-for-html5 (79 hits)
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07:19 crab i wish www.perl.org were a bit less ugly.
07:19 crab or, well. maybe it's not so ugly. i wish it were a bit nicer.
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07:25 GitHub103 [mojo] amenonsen pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/evJTjQ
07:25 GitHub103 [mojo/master] Link to learn.perl.org from Guides.pod (closes #244) - Abhijit Menon-Sen
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07:25 sri crab: didn't marcus say he wanted to write it?
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07:26 sri and it looks exactly like what we didn't want i'm afraid
07:26 purl afraid is, like, definitely the wrong word. :P
07:27 sri i thought we were going for links to tutorials and the modern perl book
07:28 crab oh, i didn't see marcus saying anything about it.
07:28 crab sri: the modern perl book is one of the books listed on that page.
07:29 sri i think you should have posted the proposal to the thread first
07:31 crab ok. i'll revert it.
07:31 sri crab: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc#LEARNING_PERL
07:31 sri formatting is not so great yet either
07:32 sri btw. website syncs regularly with master
07:32 sri so all changes will be live quickly
07:33 crab oh, that i didn't know. i'll keep that in mind. should i revert entirely, or link only to szabgab's tutorial (which seems to be the only worthwhile one) and the modern perl book?
07:34 sri don't think reverting is necessary, since it's already friday
07:34 crab i think simon cozens's book isn't bad to point someone to either, fwiw.
07:34 sri but it should be cleaned up during the day
07:34 sri crab: which book?
07:34 crab http://learn.perl.org/books/beginning-perl/
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07:35 sri learning perl section would have been a good feature branch exercise, too bad
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07:36 sri looked good… until i saw introduction to cgi ;p
07:36 sri google docs is also rather annoying imo
07:36 purl okay, sri.
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07:37 crab that's true.
07:37 crab i'll change it.
07:37 crab the problem with the tutorial is that it has holes.
07:37 sri which one?
07:38 crab http://szabgab.com/perl_tutorial.html
07:38 sri ah yea, agreed
07:38 crab it teaches the right things, but isn't finished. but i don't know of any other modern tutorial that's worth linking to
07:38 crab (and i looked, a bit)
07:38 sri like marcus said, at first sight it looks like a pay site where you get more chapters when you buy
07:39 crab yes.
07:39 sri i liked the other tutorial in the thread more
07:39 sri maybe tutorial, book, learn.perl.org
07:39 crab oh damn.
07:40 sri reopening the issue
07:40 crab i'm really sorry. i didn't realise that i only get notifications for the first post to /issues
07:41 crab i didn't realise until now that there was "the thread". i thought nothing had happened.
07:41 sri don't worry, a few screw ups are expected before the whole core team thing works :)
07:42 sri i'd rather have a few reverted commits than devs that are afraid to commit
07:43 sri and may i suggest feature branches again ;p
07:43 crab heh
07:50 sri but you do get a notification on github right?
07:51 sri i think i actually even get emails for all comments
07:51 sri got everything selected in the notification center though
07:52 sri ah
07:52 sri "Comments on Issues after me"
07:52 sri you get them if you comment
07:52 sri lesson, comment more :)
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08:17 crab ah.
08:18 crab indeed, now i got your and tempire's comments. presumably because my commit counted as commenting.
08:26 tempire sri: I don't think sopa has been voted on yet.
08:26 tempire hearings continue tomorrow
08:26 sri i see, the article just said that there have been multiple votings already
08:27 sri and SOPA has passed every time
08:28 tempire It's all the proposed amendments.  apparently any member can propose an amendment during the hearing.
08:29 tempire all in all, it's been a depressing day here in the center of the world
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08:49 sri tempire: watched community yet?
08:49 tempire not yet.  it wasn't on netflix
08:50 sri :S
08:50 sri that show is made for you
08:53 tempire I'm getting to it.
08:53 tempire I promise
09:00 DaTa shouldn't the $class argument of Mojo::Command::get_data default to (caller(1))[0] ? (and also of the get_all_data method)
09:01 sri DaTa: it's not really an enduser api that needs to be convenient
09:05 DaTa sri: ok, i take the risk of using it anyway :)
09:05 sri DaTa: not much of a risk, it has quite good tests
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09:08 tempire Thinking about a service that accepts code snippets, where more experienced developers can revise the snippet to more idiomatic language usage.
09:27 sri marcus: it's friday ;p
09:28 marcus sri: thanks for telling me!
09:28 sri marcus: you're welcome!
09:28 marcus sri: I'm actually at work :)
09:29 sri so you're playing xbox with arne? :)
09:30 * sri cracks the whip
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09:40 marcus Actually I'm at Startsiden, conslutting
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09:41 marcus it's some years since we had home office at my apartment :)
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09:48 sri aww
09:52 marcus since we're 9 people now, they wouldn't really fit in my apartment anymore either :p
09:56 sri oh my, nordaaker has grown quickly
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10:26 sri marcus: btw. any thoughts about the two rules i added earlier?
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10:29 GitHub179 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/01Kthw
10:29 GitHub179 [mojo/master] better learning perl links - Sebastian Riedel
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10:30 sri so the links are at least there until marcus gets around to rewrite it properly
10:30 marcus sure!
10:32 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc#LEARNING_PERL # actually doesn't need to be much more
10:33 sri just some rephrasing
10:33 marcus yeah, it's good to keep it short and sweet
10:34 sri maybe mention that perl knowledge is a requirement for the tutorial
10:35 sri those two links are really good though
10:36 sri the perl tutorial could use a better url though
10:40 marcus should buy learn.pl
10:40 sri :)
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10:46 tempire looks good
10:47 tempire well, to be picky, the second comma should be a semi-colon
10:47 sri marcus: you ok with formatting POD a little differently?
10:48 sri tempire: i'm sure there's a million punctuation errors in mojolicious ;p
10:48 * tempire detains sri indefinitely
10:49 sri :(
10:49 tempire we do that now.  it's a thing
10:49 tempire :s
10:49 * sri delays mongodb driver indefinitely
10:49 tempire backfire!
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10:53 sri that's the american way now
10:56 sri marcus: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/0f​8324792289d05c79a83e1256652c76b98bdc5f
10:57 sri i know you have a thing for putting multiple sentences on the same line :)
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11:35 marcus sri: it's called a paragraph....
11:36 sri marcus: i know
11:37 sri and POD doesn't care about single line breaks, it's still a paragraph
11:38 memowe \o/
11:39 marcus sri: why not present it more like it's rendered?
11:39 marcus I guess it makes diffs easier tho
11:39 sri because it's easier to edit
11:39 sri and diffs yes
11:40 sri i hate reindenting the whole paragraph just because i changed a word in the first sentence
11:40 sri or fixed punctuation :)
11:41 sri which i predict will happen *a lot*
11:42 marcus I'm fine with it, but can't promise not to forget.
11:43 marcus will make an effort tho.
11:43 sri \o/
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12:06 marcus tempire: you've always been detaining foreigners. the new thing is that you can detain americans as well.
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12:07 * sri detains tempire indefinitely
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12:22 crab whatever happened to yko?
12:23 sri he mentioned that he will have less time
12:29 sri hmm, think i'll revert the POD formatting rule again, since nobody really agreed with it
12:30 crab eh? everyone said it was ok
12:30 crab and it has clear maintenance benefits.
12:31 sri maybe i misunderstood then
12:31 crab it's not the kind of thing anyone is going to be wildly enthusiastic about, anyway.
12:31 sri seemed more like everyone was neutral
12:32 marcus sri: I'm happy with it.
12:32 sri but yea, always hard to say with these kind of small things
12:32 marcus \o/ \m/ \o/
12:32 crab i'd say don't change it until enough people object to outweigh the simple edit/diff benefit
12:33 sri ok
12:39 * crab enables password expiry for his client's customers in $app
12:40 crab i expect panic-stricken phone calls any moment now...
12:42 vervain I'm not sure I get the pod editing discussion... but are you suggesting that pod is allowed to violate the 78 char textwidth?
12:43 sri nope
12:43 vervain Oh good.
12:44 sri just that lines like "Foo bar. Baz yada." become "Foo bar.\nBaz yada."
12:44 sri since POD renders both the same
12:45 sri mojolicious documentation actually always did that, i just proposed making it a rule for consistency
12:46 vervain So the start of every sentence is on a new line?
12:46 * sri nods
12:47 vervain Fugly.
12:47 sri only in the source, it gets rendered sharing a line
12:47 rhaen hm. hep everyone.
12:47 * sri waves
12:47 vervain I understand that... but being able to read the source correctly is as important as being able to read the output.
12:48 rhaen what's the best way to "cancel" a render request? Like - there is nothing to render?
12:48 vervain In any case... I'm guessing that you were after opinions... mine is a level 10 Fugly! :-)
12:48 vervain I'm new... but I'd just do text = ''
12:48 rhaen vervain: hm. could be.
12:49 rhaen vervain: that's actually a way :)
12:50 vervain Is markdown a standard perdoc format yet?
12:50 sri vervain: you really consider this that ugly? https://raw.github.com/kraih/mojo/mast​er/lib/Mojolicious/Guides/Routing.pod
12:51 vervain sri: Yes... all of those paragraphs that are poorly justified are misleading... because they will not render that way.
12:51 vervain Also... when I come along and do a vim gqap to 'fix' them you'll get pissed off. :-)
12:52 rhaen sri: ?
12:52 sri rhaen: ?
12:52 rhaen sri: you've made my life enjoyable again
12:53 rhaen sri: thanks for creating mojolicious.
12:53 * rhaen salutes.
12:53 sri my pleasure :)
12:53 sri rhaen: you write for a living, what's your stance on paragraph formatting in POD?
12:54 vervain gqap re-justifies a paragraph in vim... and like perldoc markdown etc it looks for blank lines to interpolate paragraphs.
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13:00 rhaen sri: uh. hm, actually I have no opinion on that.
13:01 vervain sri: have you seen that multi line style anywhere else?
13:01 sri vervain: nope
13:03 vervain I'm trying hard to be open minded... but in thousands of pages both read and written I've never come across that... and my fingers are very much in the habit of re-justifying text based paragraphs.
13:04 rhaen sri: let me think about it (in the meeting I am attending right now :) )
13:06 vervain oh and in case you didn't know already... my opinion is the most important and my views are gospel :-)
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13:07 marcus all praise the savior, vervain!
13:07 sri i find it curious that you feel so strongly about it :)
13:09 vervain In fairness... as long as I don't get chastised for doing it different... I say each to his own on this rule (as long as rules don't get mixed in the same doc section)
13:10 vervain But I do consider it non-standard... but then again Mojo used 2 space indentation too... so screw standards. :-)
13:10 crab vervain: stick your fingers in a vise and teach them better
13:10 vervain s/used/uses/ :-)
13:11 crab thinking back to when i used to review and apply doc fixes to perl, i used to hate it when people arbitrarily reformatted paragraphs, often without making any real changes.
13:11 vervain crab: Not my intention at all.  e.g. I _love_ two-space indents. Just surprised to find a 'mainstream' perl distro using them.
13:12 crab like there'd be a double-space somewhere, so they'd remove that, and reflow everything after it. gr.
13:13 sri <3 two-space
13:13 vervain crab: Maybe even when that two-spaces followed a . and was completely correct? ;-)
13:14 crab vervain: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/dami​anthompson/100072634/why-using-two-spa​ces-after-a-full-stop-is-wrong-period/
13:14 crab oh, that's not the right one. http://www.slate.com/articles/technology​/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html
13:15 marcus HIDE YO WIFE, HIDE YO CHILDREN!
13:18 vervain Ok... so i'll withdraw my 'completely correct' and replace it with completely acceptable... that article is wrong in that regard. :-)
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13:21 crab anyway, no matter what formatting rules we use, someone is going to hate them
13:21 crab (e.g. i don't like two-space indents... but it doesn't stop me from using them for mojo)
13:27 vervain How cna you say that... two-space indents are what makes it better than the other frameworks.
13:27 vervain :-)
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13:58 GitHub161 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/bOOeHg
13:58 GitHub161 [mojo/master] removed POD formatting rule again - Sebastian Riedel
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13:58 sri it's arguable, and that's not good enough imo
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14:10 * marcus adds some big walls of text to the pod
14:10 * sri tears down those walls
14:19 DaTa "Mr. Gorbatschow, tear down this wall"  -- David Hasselhoff
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14:50 crab sri: the others aren't arguable? :-)
14:51 crab everything is arguable!
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14:51 sri crab: but with this one i'm arguing against myself :)
14:51 crab heh
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15:03 marcus crab: it's the only opinion he values higher than his own.
15:07 crab :-)
15:07 sri ;p
15:22 sri or is anyone else convinced?
15:22 sri if in doubt i tend to just go with the conservative option
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16:03 * sri wonders if the SOPA discussion continues today
16:33 Akron Showed a student today how easy it is to grab list items from Wikipedia using ojo. I never used ojo before, but the API of it + DOM + Collection is so well done, I was able to do it blindly. Mojolicious++
16:37 sri Akron++ # you helped make it
16:37 Akron :)
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17:08 MojoGuest962 From: http://blog.kraih.com/perl-is-ready-for-html5 (80 hits)
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17:14 GitHub110 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v8K9Hg
17:14 GitHub110 [mojo/master] changed Mojo::IOLoop->client arguments from ($loop, $stream, $err) to ($loop, $err, $stream) - Sebastian Riedel
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17:14 sri this one is a bit unusual
17:15 sri but while working on the mongodb driver i noticed that we need a convention for errors
17:15 sri i'm just gonna take the node.js one for now, where errors are always the first argument
17:16 sri (right after the invocant)
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18:08 MojoGuest954 From: http://blog.kraih.com/perl-is-ready-for-html5 (81 hits)
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18:40 tempire What's the name of the javascript history manipulation thingy that github does?
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18:49 gabiruh tempire: pushState?
18:49 tempire yes, thanks
18:50 gabiruh tempire: also, check History.js which degrades gracefully to whatever functionality the browser supports
18:50 tempire will do
19:03 cfedde suddenly I get: "pingsweep" is not a valid application. I don't know what i broke.
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19:16 batman marcus: why do you do my($err)=$tx->error; in Plugin::OAuth2 ?
19:17 cfedde apparently putting code after 'app->start;' confuses things.
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21:04 tempire cfedde: indeed, ->start is where the main loop happens
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21:21 yko crab, nothing bad happened to me, I'm just damn busy developing kiev.pm, changing my life and doing all the stuff in the end of year
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22:43 xaka hey core team, i have mojo 2.37 and right now it consumes 100% CPU. i dunno what happened, but somehow socket hasn't been closed gracefuly by a client and i see tons of "write" calls with EPIPE error. i see mojo deals with EPIPE error, but stream still attached to ioloop
22:47 xaka i see IO::Poll returns POLLIN | POLLOUT | POLLHUP for the handle
22:47 xaka https://gist.github.com/6ab94d5d758d20f3fbf2
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23:07 tempire xaka: are you using EV?
23:08 xaka tempire: nope, i don't have it
23:10 xaka tempire: interesting that even default stream timeout can't handle with it, it still trying to write data to invalid handle :)
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