Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2012-01-16

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Time Nick Message
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01:49 tempire echo echo echo
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02:39 crab hmm.
02:39 crab i wonder if i should implement database setup etc. as a command.
02:39 crab that might be neat.
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03:05 tempire what would it cover?
03:05 tempire looks like schwern laid it down.
03:05 tempire his points are reasonable.
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04:20 crab what would what cover?
04:20 crab what did schwern lay down?
04:32 tempire what would your database setup command cover
04:33 tempire crab: ^
04:33 tempire and, regarding schwern: https://github.com/perl-doc-cats/perlfaq/pull/24
04:36 crab tempire: i was thinking that i could implement the (app-specific) scripts i currently put in utils/ as subcommands
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07:24 marcus so how the hell are you supposed to answer schwern's question in an objective fashion?
07:25 marcus how well does dancer scale in performance vs catalyst, web-simple, mojolicious?
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07:25 marcus They all use PSGI, so what's the difference in getting it running against a web server?
07:25 marcus they all work on all the major operating systems ,afaik?
07:34 tempire if those questions are adhered to, does it need to be objective?
07:35 tempire doesn't seem like objectivity needs to be a standard if there's already a prevailing standard.
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07:45 crab i thought schwern's post was (a) mostly blather, and (b) somewhat rude.
07:45 crab as if deciding on a web framework can be boiled down to reading one answer in perlfaq. bah.
07:48 marcus I've tried to answer the questions for Mojolicious, regardless of agreeing with crab - http://paste.scsys.co.uk/175635
07:48 marcus any factual errors you guys can spot before I post it on the thread?
07:49 marcus with regards to commercial support, Nordaaker can provide it, but I didn't want to list us as I assume other consulting companies can as well.
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08:01 tempire Might want to say "Mojolicious is event-driven, and was the first web framework…"
08:01 tempire since event-driven is schnazzle
08:09 crab i wonder if anyone wants commercial support for mojolicious.
08:11 marcus crab: Well, we have at least two commercial customers with deployed mojolicious solutions, and we do provide them with support, on a perl-hour basis.
08:12 marcus per-hour!#$%!# freudian slip
08:15 * marcus puts on his Freudian slippers.
08:16 crab sweet.
08:17 sri marcus: the generate line is wrong
08:17 sri lite_app Foo
08:18 sri there are no classes, you just generate a script
08:18 marcus sri: well, it works on osx ;-)
08:18 sri lite_app foo.pl; morbo foo.pl
08:18 sri -.-
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08:18 marcus sri: https://gist.github.com/1619720
08:19 sri that works everywhere :)
08:20 sri marcus: typos too?
08:20 marcus sri: it's on a gist, feel free to fix them directly?
08:21 sri i can only fork or comment
08:21 marcus oh
08:21 marcus fork it? :)
08:21 marcus sounds fun
08:23 sri anyway, "real-time", "WebSockets", and HTML5 is not mentioned
08:23 crab sigh. bootstrap 2.0 looks a lot nicer than 1.x.
08:24 sri gotta mention Mojo::DOM somehow
08:24 sri mentioning a number for plugins is not very future proof
08:24 crab yes, the fact that mojo's vision of a web framework includes a client is quite distinctive
08:24 marcus sri: mentioned web sockets under latest web schnazzle
08:24 sri it's WebSockets
08:25 sri not "web sockets"
08:25 marcus -.-
08:25 sri ;p
08:26 crab it's "The WebSocket Protocol", not "WebSockets" ;-p
08:26 sri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebSocket
08:27 crab ok, WebSocket then.
08:28 marcus WebSprockets
08:28 * marcus stabs Opera for zealous caching
08:28 sri WetSocks
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08:32 sri besides mentioning numbers that quickly change it looks good otherwise
08:36 * cosimo points marcus to Opera preferences
08:37 marcus cosimo: the problem is, I'm uploading a new avatar, and Opera keeps caching it. can't make users update their preferences.
08:48 sri oh, already the last episode of sherlock :(
08:59 cosimo marcus: i feel your pain
08:59 cosimo i guess you've already checked max-age, expires: and all that stuff
09:00 cosimo marcus: is your avatar served by a redirect, by any chance?
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11:10 sri marcus: don't forget to post your answers
11:11 sri should "hot upgrades" be "hot deployment"?
11:12 sri i usually just say "zero downtime software upgrades" or "hot deployment"
11:12 marcus sri: already posted :)
11:13 sri marcus++
11:22 * crab ponders ivo welch
11:23 marcus http://www.ivo-welch.info/ ?
11:23 crab marcus: yes. or a number of recent mojo list posts.
11:24 marcus crab: iaw?
11:26 crab yes.
11:28 marcus I kind of agree with him on the unboxing page, it can be confusing for a newbie.
11:29 sri crab: render_static is only relative to public though
11:29 marcus maybe we could get some numbers or something there to indicate more content.
11:30 crab sri: i'll clarify in a followup.
11:32 sri crab: the documentation for it is also very specific though, shouldn't be hard to figure out
11:35 sri crab: you actually can render files outside the public directory, but the path needs to be relative xD
11:35 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojo​licious/Controller#render_static
11:38 crab yes, i know. i use it that way myself.
11:38 marcus there's also a render  bug in chrome for the brand new page - http://nordaaker.com/docs/skitch/P​age_Not_Found-20120116-123736.jpg
11:38 crab but "meant to be used with files in the public directory" is ok.
11:38 * sri nods
11:39 marcus actually, it renders like that in safari as well.
11:39 sri not here
11:39 purl not here is probably Europe
11:40 marcus weird
11:41 crab oh, i guess iaw wants /welcome to be /
11:42 crab i think that would be fairly sensible, actually.
11:42 sri then we could just as well get rid of the dev 404
11:44 sri i'm ok with that, as long as there's a pretty replacement that makes more sense in its place
11:44 crab i think it would be ok to make the dev 404 be just the "would you like to add a route for it?" bit.
11:44 crab so going to / shows you the templated stuff, and going to anything else tells you exactly how to proceed.
11:44 * sri disagrees
11:44 sri on its own it is ugly
11:45 crab oh.
11:45 sri we would need something new imo
11:45 marcus I think there's room for improvement, but I agree with sri.
11:46 marcus any other frameworks we can "borrow" some inspiration from? :)
11:46 crab marcus: you think leaving the current dev 404 page and changing /welcome to / is bad?
11:46 crab or you think taking only the middle part of the dev 404 page is bad?
11:47 marcus crab: only taking the middle part.
11:47 crab ok
11:48 marcus play's root page - http://nordaaker.com/docs/skitch/Play​_framework_-_Home-20120116-124753.jpg
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11:48 sri one thing i will not allow is stealing designs from another framework
11:49 sri i know dancer does it, but i think that's below our standards
11:50 sri that said, a less artsy and more informative approach sure makes sense
11:53 sri something closer to the dev 500 page
11:53 marcus sri: didn't mean to steal their design, more to look at their ideas.
11:53 sri maybe even reusing the mojobar
11:53 marcus I actually think your designs are better.
11:54 sri marcus: sure, just wanted to make that point clear :)
11:54 crab i shall design a super-informative and super-ugly page!
11:55 marcus "design" :)
11:55 marcus crab: I hope you will use traditional indian colors.
11:56 * marcus loves him some pastel colors.
11:56 crab yes, black... and white!
11:56 sri if you start with the perldoc browser design it should be pretty hard to mess up
12:03 sri hmm
12:03 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc # would a page like this with instructions make sense as a dev 404?
12:03 crab sri: btw, i just saw in my lastlog your question about using bootstrap.
12:04 crab i like bootstrap already at 1.4.0, and the sneak peek of 2.0 just makes me like it more.
12:04 marcus I agree, I think Nordaaker will standardize on bootstrap as a basis for our stuff.
12:05 marcus it has a lot of momentum now.
12:07 sri crab: well, for mojolicious core it doesn't make that much sense atm though
12:07 crab fair enough. i was just making a general observation on bootstrap.
12:08 sri i think we all agree on that observation :)
12:11 sri crab: did i understand you right and you're now preparing a more informative 404 dev page?
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12:15 sri i'm not really in the right mindset for design, but i can prepare an empty sekelton resembling a perldoc page if you need it
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12:22 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/263
12:23 marcus I would like something more similar to the production 500 page.
12:23 marcus :D
12:24 sri the old marcus switcheroo ;p
12:25 marcus was kidding.
12:25 sri i know.
12:25 * marcus redesigns startsiden ws client to use callbacks instead of horrific ioloop in ioloop
12:28 crab sri: yes, you understood me right, and yes, that would be very useful
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12:38 sri crab: i'll create a branch with the skeleton
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13:35 GitHub169 [mojo] kraih created not_found (+1 new commit): http://git.io/UKPpmQ
13:35 GitHub169 [mojo/not_found] added skeleton for new development mode not_found page - Sebastian Riedel
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13:35 sri crab: now it's your turn :)
13:38 sri i left the exception tests failing, so you don't forget to update them
13:44 ZadYree hi comrades
13:45 ZadYree let's kill every humans
13:45 crab i think not.
13:46 crab who will worship us then? cockroaches?
13:47 ZadYree not on my life, I hate this commutiny
13:47 sri COMMUTINY!
13:48 marcus tiny commies?
13:51 sri https://github.com/perl-doc-cats/perlfaq/pull/24 # and it goes even further off the rails
13:51 sri why link to pretty framework websites when you can also link to an ugly wiki!
13:51 memowe urgs
13:53 ZadYree tiny commits
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14:11 crab now, why did i think there was a "req" helper?
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14:24 sri marcus: maybe not a bad idea if you posted more screenshots of welcome pages now :)
14:25 memowe AOL
14:25 sri not AOL
14:25 memowe ?
14:25 memowe Sure!
14:25 memowe AOL eq 'add me'
14:26 crab "add me"? i always thought it meant "me too"
14:27 memowe crab: I think, it means "me too" too, but AFAIR the original translation was something like "add me".
14:28 memowe But "me too" eq "add me" in this context.
14:28 sri AOL = America Online
14:28 * crab adds up memowe, and gets one (1) memowe.
14:28 memowe sri: and AOL users were famous for their "add me".
14:28 crab sri: AOL users were famous for saying "me too"
14:30 crab memowe: both the jargon file and wikipedia mention me too but not add me
14:30 memowe really? Then it's true.
14:31 memowe I thought it was originally something like "add me to your friend list".
14:31 crab no no. this was back in the usenet days, when they would reply to posts with just "me too"
14:31 crab there were no friend lists on usenet (only enemy lists :-)
14:32 memowe AOL users used the usenet?
14:32 crab suddenly i feel very old.
14:32 memowe I mean, yes, usenet is where I know AOL from. But never thought it came from AOL users INSIDE the usenet.
14:33 memowe I actually felt very young when I saw usenet for the first time.
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14:55 sri http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/op​ensource/library/os-django/fig01.jpg
14:56 sri https://support.eapps.com/eapps_im​ages/ror_img/ror_riding_rails.png
14:57 memowe "Get to work"--
14:57 crab aol
14:57 crab i find that very rude.
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14:58 memowe I'm thinking about writing a command to generate a bootylite skeleton. What do you think is better?
14:58 memowe bootylite.pl generate
14:58 memowe or
14:58 memowe mojo generate bootylite
14:59 crab bootylite.pl generate, i think
14:59 crab the other is a bit too confusing potentially
14:59 memowe Maybe. But less polluting.
15:00 memowe And I have often issues with morbo bootylite.pl not using ./bootylite.pl
15:02 memowe bbl
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15:06 crab hm.
15:06 crab not_found.development.html.ep isn't the right place for a welcome-to-mojolicious message.
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15:07 crab and maybe what /welcome serves isn't right for a new / either, judging by what ror/django/etc. serve.
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15:23 sri crab: what should a not_found.development say?
15:25 sri if you're suggesting to include a welcome page into the generated skeletons then i'm very much aggainst that
15:25 sri it only makes them messy and we would have to maintain them in two places
15:27 sri also, i couldn't care less what other frameworks serve, all that matters is what's best for *our* users
15:29 sri nobody else has lite and normal apps, we are in a unique position
15:30 sri please don't try to copy what the others have, just make something better
15:33 crab i am not suggesting that. i don't like that idea at all either.
15:33 sri http://acko.net/blog/making-love-to-webkit/ # instead take a look at this :)
15:35 crab i did already, but my browser doesn't do 3d transforms :-(
15:35 sri aww
15:35 crab stupid ATI video card isn't supported.
15:38 sri crab/marcus/tempire: what should the development not_found page say?
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15:39 crab i'm writing what i think it should say now. will finish it tomorrow morning (must sleep now).
15:40 crab anything said between now and then on channel will be taken into consideration before i commit.
15:40 sri ok
15:40 sri it's a branch, just commit
15:40 sri will get squashed before merge anyway
15:41 crab i hate squashing
15:41 crab but ok
15:41 sri i hate countless unsquashed mini commits for one change :)
15:42 sri nobody really cares how a feature evolved, all that matters is the final version
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15:49 Netfeed i hate when your looking for the person that "owns" the change and it's drowned in a "super commit"
15:50 Netfeed you're
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15:54 sri and the alternative is to have people delay commits to feature branches because they are not certain yet
15:55 sri which in turn delays the work of everyone else
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16:20 GitHub65 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to not_found: http://git.io/DIj12g
16:20 GitHub65 [mojo/not_found] removed some more legacy code - Sebastian Riedel
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17:14 xaka can we have direct ref to current connection's stream instead of Mojo::IOLoop->stream($self->tx->connection)? like $c->tx->stream. That could prevent from import and using global Mojo::IOLoop.
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18:07 ccushing outside of  'has' are there any known issues with using Moose in a Mojo object?
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18:07 ccushing and would anything be lost by not importing has?
18:32 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/263 # these questions need to be discussed
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18:50 diegok sri: not_found in devel mode shouldn't list defined routes?
18:50 sri diegok: i don't know, make a proposal in the discussion
18:52 diegok ok, I'm also not sure.. but it's the only thing I can think about it right now. Will comment on the issue.
18:52 sri diegok: and most importantly, how can routes be displayed on a html page?
19:00 diegok sri: I see bridges list depending routes with a + on a list... which can of routes also has special display using command 'routes'?
19:00 diegok s/can/kind/
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19:20 sri diegok: it would actually work
19:20 sri just wrote it in like 10 lines
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19:38 sri http://twitpic.com/88452a/full # this works too
19:49 sri more of a development tool
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20:17 marcus Sri: I like that..
20:18 marcus Very useful development 404.
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22:05 ccushing is there any way to compoles Role's with Mojo?
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22:50 GitHub107 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to not_found: http://git.io/fCU1kA
22:50 GitHub107 [mojo/not_found] added list of routes to not_found template - Sebastian Riedel
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22:50 sri marcus: you're welcome to help with polishing :)
22:55 sri i've also added the mojobar for dev exceptions, not 100% sure about that yet
22:58 diegok sri: I doubt also on the bar. Perhaps just a little example like the current one and links pointing to the right docs on how to create that missing route.
22:59 sri diegok: i think you're misunderstanding
22:59 diegok probably :)
23:00 sri for not_found i'm quite certain about the mojobar
23:00 sri just exception not 100%
23:00 diegok ok :)
23:00 sri not_found would be lost without the bar
23:01 sri also no idea how what crab is writing will fit in there
23:02 sri too much additional text could have a negative impact
23:03 diegok current one isn't so helpful but I really like how it looks :)
23:03 sri http://twitpic.com/886ash/full
23:04 diegok I would just replace the box for the reutes and keep de current one :p
23:04 tempire_ I dig the twitpic
23:04 tempire_ ack
23:05 sri exception template got tuned a bit, same dimensions as all other templates and the bar
23:08 diegok I'm not a big fan of the mojobar on dev I think... :-p
23:12 sri diegok: you're welcome to design something better
23:13 sri that's what the discussion and branch are for
23:14 * ccushing trying to figure out how to override the default not_found and where :/ tried subclassing Controller but that didn't work
23:14 diegok sri: :)
23:17 ccushing either that or at least figure out how to make it so that it actually requests .json when requesting .json
23:17 ccushing instead of always defaulting to .html
23:17 ccushing ugh
23:18 ccushing also tried subclassing Mojolicious and using that
23:20 xaka ccushing: take a look at "after_dispatch" hook, the only usable way i've found some time ago
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23:50 tempire ccushing: you can also just place an appropriately named file in templates

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