Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2012-02-07

| Channels | #mojo index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:53 bird joined #mojo
00:55 ki0 joined #mojo
01:02 d4rkie joined #mojo
01:05 scott joined #mojo
02:21 hshong joined #mojo
02:29 * tempire channels marcus
02:29 tempire what do we want done for google summer of code?
02:33 sri i'm warming up to the idea of having spdy support
02:35 SmokeMachine joined #mojo
02:35 sri not sure gsoc students could help with the preparations though
02:37 sri which would be NPN support in IO::Socket::SSL/Net::SSLeay and redesigning Mojo::UserAgent/Mojo::Server::Daemon internals to make switching protocols easier
02:40 tempire NPN?
02:40 purl rumour has it NPN is OK rght
02:40 sri next protocol negotiation
02:40 tempire damnit
02:40 tempire I was just typing that
02:40 tempire was going to sound educated
02:41 sri ;p
02:41 sri it's pretty simple, but perl tls modules are a mess… no idea if we'll ever get it :S
02:41 tempire why the spdy love?
02:42 tempire by this point, I thought it was the channel rule to hate spdy
02:42 sri google is pushing pretty hard to get spdy blessed as http/2.0
02:44 sri even if http/2.0 ends up being somethig slightly different, would be nice to have a pluggable protocol layer to be prepared for the future
02:44 tempire I've been thinking of some way to disable the html error message when using Test::Mojo
02:44 tempire or, thinking of it
02:45 sri $t->app->hook(after_dispatch => sub {...});
02:46 sri or actually $t->ua->app->...
02:46 sri ah no, $t->app->… :)
02:48 sri or make it a plugin that only runs if TEST_HARNESS is set
02:48 tempire that's a decent idea
02:49 tempire and just emit the error
02:55 sri re gsoc… up to date example apps are always nice
03:02 tempire true enough
03:03 tempire I'm putting together an example app with a blog, photos, tests, and dbic to show folks
03:03 sri could even search the mailing list for most commonly asked questions and make module use a requirement
03:04 sri like "build a small blog app using Mojolicious::Lite and DBIx::Class"
03:04 tempire I'm thinking "build the same app with lite and full" so people can see the comparison
03:04 tempire people get confused with startup and such all the time
03:04 sri that would be nice
03:05 sri in fact, that would be awesome
03:06 sri just the most basic features and both variations, that will be extremely useful for beginners
03:08 ki0 joined #mojo
03:08 sven^ joined #mojo
03:19 kitt_vl joined #mojo
03:30 * crab sighs
03:49 omf_ I got a mojolicious question but I need to explain a little context first. The last time I wrote a web app in Perl was in 2007. I did both cgi and mod_perl apps. Looking through the mojo docs it is all about these new web server options. My question is what server + mojo do I use to get the advantages I had with mod_perl in 2007?
03:50 crab i run nginx proxying to hypnotoad.
03:50 omf_ crab, do you use plack in the middle?
03:52 crab no. (a) you can use plack middleware from mojo directly, (b) i figured out how to do it and then realised i didn't need it.
04:01 tempire omf_: place isn't really necessary with mojolicious, because it provides its own high performance daemon
04:01 omf_ ugh I am going to have to run some benchmarks. Nothing is comprehensive enough
04:01 tempire *plack
04:03 crab what do you want to benchmark?
04:04 omf_ requests per second
04:04 tempire do you have your application already set up?
04:04 tempire db access, external daemons, etc
04:05 omf_ yes. I have 2 versions of the app. I wrote cgi version then a mojo version
04:06 tempire ok.  some folks try to benchmark without considering the full stack.
04:06 tempire which is an exercise in futility
04:07 omf_ I went database free on this app because of performance concerns. The little data the app needs to run is cached in ram
04:09 crab if you don't insert sleep(10)s in your code, then, i can't imagine it'll be too slow for anything.
04:10 omf_ There is some serious eval stuff going on
04:10 omf_ it chews up resources
04:10 omf_ and it is not something I can work around
04:17 ki0 joined #mojo
04:52 ki0 joined #mojo
04:52 migo joined #mojo
04:53 migo_ joined #mojo
05:17 ki0 joined #mojo
05:26 federated_life joined #mojo
05:28 mire joined #mojo
06:01 federated_life joined #mojo
06:17 koban joined #mojo
06:27 sri rps benchmarks can be wrong even if your app is sensible
06:28 paul joined #mojo
06:28 maluco_ joined #mojo
06:28 sri you have to consider transfer rate too, since different servers send different additional headers
06:29 sri and then you might want to compare resource usage for those rps, memory and cpu can vary a lot
06:29 sri especially memory is often a limiting factor when scaling out
07:04 Vandal joined #mojo
07:09 Foxcool joined #mojo
07:14 hshong joined #mojo
07:15 dpetrov_ joined #mojo
07:19 hide joined #mojo
07:25 marcus omglolz
07:28 olav joined #mojo
07:40 tempire srsly?
07:40 purl totally srsly.
07:41 crab ktchx
07:41 crab hm. where did that c come from? i'm so un-hip.
07:51 sri oh my, there's a comedy movie about bird watching, if that wasn't made for crab :)
07:51 sri the big year
07:57 bird joined #mojo
08:06 mire joined #mojo
08:22 black joined #mojo
08:24 olav Hey guys. All well?
08:24 paul olav: i have to go to work
08:24 paul can you fix that for me?
08:25 olav paul: Nope - Im already at work :)
08:25 paul darn
08:26 olav paul: If I could fix it, you would be out of your job - not so nice :)
08:27 paul olav: at this point, sat drinking and smoking before i head in
08:27 paul i'd possibly accept it
08:28 melmothX joined #mojo
08:28 olav paul: I see what u mean
08:30 paul i'm gonna try and get some websocket tests done today, but it's tricky cause i'm rebuilding 3 machines, deploying a few more and working on configs for the rest
08:31 olav paul: that does not sound like something I could make go away with a script - unless all the machines are virtual.
08:33 olav i'm trying to add a condition to a route. Which does not seem to work the way i expect: https://gist.github.com/1758245
08:33 olav well, a router to be more precise.
08:35 * tempire rewrites *everything* in one reduce function
08:37 olav tempire: sounds like you have re-implemented: http://make-everything-ok.com/
08:38 berov joined #mojo
08:39 tempire the continuous usage of "of" in the resulting statement temporarily satisfies my functional desire.
08:40 ver joined #mojo
08:58 cosmincx joined #mojo
09:05 melmothX some newbie questions (pointing to doc is totally fine): 1) the web app is persistent. So if I chdir in one function, the global app changes directory. So how can I safely change directory? 2) If the app is persistent, if I put a "die" it's supposed to die all the application (but from some testing with morbo, this doesn't seem the case). Anyway, I assume it's not safe to put a "die" in case of error, à la CGI.pm. Is it correct?
09:06 tempire best solution: don't change directory
09:06 tempire side-effects are bad
09:07 tempire a die should trigger the mojolicious debug page
09:07 melmothX it does, indeed
09:08 melmothX so it doesn't really die
09:08 melmothX should the "die" be avoided?
09:08 tempire die isn't something you want to use/depend on in a normal application flow.
09:08 tempire die is for "holy crap the world has ended"
09:09 melmothX I'm new to this kind of apps. I've always "worked" with CGI.pm
09:09 tempire welcome to the new world.
09:09 tempire death is no longer a problem here.
09:09 melmothX :-)
09:09 melmothX so no die, no chdir. Something else I should know coming from the cgi environment?
09:10 tempire mojolicious is made of rainbows and unicorns
09:10 melmothX or better, some doc for this persistent stuff?
09:10 tempire that's about it.
09:10 melmothX what about forking? is it safe?
09:11 tempire that's more an issue of how you deploy.
09:11 tempire if you watch the mojocasts, and then read the docs listed on mojolicio.us/perldoc, you'll be ahead of most people.
09:12 melmothX i'm doing that, thanks a bunch
09:13 ver joined #mojo
09:14 lukep joined #mojo
09:15 rihegher joined #mojo
09:17 melmothX oh, another question. Are the parameters "tainted" as in perl -T ?
09:19 memowe tempire: retweeted! :D #death
09:20 tempire :)
09:20 tempire old twitter handle though
09:24 sri perl -T is pretty much pointless in mojolicious, since we parse everything
09:24 memowe tempire: whoops! s/(@tempire)tech/$1/ ?
09:24 tempire yep
09:25 melmothX ok, thanks people for your answers, much appreciated
09:25 memowe done.
09:25 melmothX need i to log in into github to add some notes here? https://github.com/kraih/mojo/wiki/Newbie-notes
09:25 sri yes
09:26 melmothX that's annoying, but I'll survive
09:26 tempire github is another part of the new world.
09:27 melmothX yeah, I use(d) it, even if i keep the current stuff on gitorious
09:27 sri on the plus side, if you log in you can "watch" mojolicious too :)
09:27 memowe "watching" mojolicious is awesome.
09:29 GitHub191 joined #mojo
09:29 GitHub191 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/qLYS4w
09:29 GitHub191 [mojo/master] rescued futurama quote from the simpsons side - Sebastian Riedel
09:29 GitHub191 left #mojo
09:32 rihegher left #mojo
09:34 memowe Wow, first time I hear there's another "github".
09:34 cosmincx joined #mojo
09:34 memowe Hi, this is memowe. The moon's backside is pretty dark atm.
09:42 daxim joined #mojo
09:52 black joined #mojo
10:08 scott joined #mojo
10:36 melmothX joined #mojo
11:30 cosmincx joined #mojo
11:39 sri america is funny
11:40 paul america really is hilarious
11:41 sri obama single-handedly ratified ACTA with an executive order, how is that democratic?
11:44 paul he ratified it? when?
11:44 sri from what i gathered he signed an executive order behind closed doors
11:45 sri which automatically ratifies it
11:46 paul that sounds rather dubious, i'm not seeing much evidence of it
11:49 sri so many articles, hard to get to the facts...
11:49 * sri keeps searching
11:50 paul yeah, i wouldn't be surprised though, the US is screwed in more than one way
12:05 sjn *sigh*
12:05 * sjn hopes that the rest of the world eventually gets it
12:06 dpetrov_ gets what
12:06 purl gets is ANSI standard. or *WRONG*
12:07 memowe :D
12:10 dpetrov_ oh he signed it?
12:10 dpetrov_ son of . .....
12:11 sri i have not found a conclusive article yet, just rumors
12:12 diegok Wow, I went to FOSDEM and came back and 2.47 is there with a lot of changes... I should look at the hypnotoad config change before breaking something here :)
12:12 sri should be 100% backcompat (with deprecation) if i didn't screw up
12:15 dpetrov_ well yeah just rumors.. but most of the EU countries did the same
12:15 diegok sri: <3 :-)
12:15 ruz is there a plugin that comes with static files (css/js/...)?
12:16 briang joined #mojo
12:26 crab gah. javascript frameworks are depressing.
12:27 ruz crab: too easy to use? no challenge?
12:29 crab i was thinking more like: poorly documented, poorly written, full of bugs, surrounded by abandonware plugins
12:33 crab stack overflow is not documentation. twitter is not documentation.
12:38 marcus :D
12:42 diegok crab: which frameworks are you referring?... I'm mostly happy with backbone.js and jquery docs
12:43 crab diegok: in this case, backbone plus the modelbinding, validation, and relational plugins.
12:43 diegok crab: oh!, I should look at those plugins... so, should I expect suffering? :-(
12:44 crab yes.
12:44 ruz jquery's core is necely documented, but plugins lack consistency and culture
12:45 crab also, i'm not so in love with twitter bootstrap any more. it looks nice, works well, but it's full of batshit insanity.
12:45 paul crab: reading the code is the new documentation
12:46 crab paul: that's where the "poorly written" part comes in.
12:46 paul crab: i feel your pain
12:47 crab backbone itself is ok, though the documentation is annoyingly imprecise sometimes. but when you have multiple plugins interacting, you have a hell of a time figuring stuff out.
12:50 marcus crab: what kind of insanity? We're standardizing on bootstrap 2.0 as a basis for our projects.
12:52 sri it's easy to get spoiled by documentation standards in the perl world
12:52 * ruz right now hacking on M::P::Bootstrapped
12:52 crab marcus: esp. with forms, there is zero documentation of the structure expected, and it needs a lot of markup. if you do something slightly different, you get all sorts of inconsistent spacing etc.
12:52 marcus ah
12:52 marcus forms are hard :)
12:52 crab <label class=checkbox><input type=checkbox>... works, but if you put a text input inside a label, your padding is wrong.
12:53 crab (also, wtf do you need to set class=checkbox on the label?)
12:53 marcus crab: probably because the label needs to be on the oposite side of other labels?
12:53 marcus [ ] label vs label [ ---- ]
12:54 crab marcus: <label><input type=checkbox> Blah</label> should work fine
12:54 marcus crab: maybe so. patches welcome? ;)
12:55 marcus I see your friend iaw has sent a revised growing guide as an attachment on the ML.
12:55 crab i'm not sure if they are.
12:55 marcus crab: https://github.com/twitter/bootstr​ap/wiki/Contributing-to-Bootstrap
12:55 marcus crab: they seem to encourage pull requests
12:56 sri grrr…. i hate it when twitter mangles my tweets
12:56 paul a lot of those words are redundant, you could have gotten by with just 'i hate... twitter'
12:56 sri how would i tweet "MOJO_CA_FILE=1 mojo get -r https://cacert.org"?
12:57 sri stupid twitter turns it into "MOJO_CA_FILE=1 mojo get -r cacert.org" or some t.co shortened url...
12:57 marcus hmm, seems I can't "fork and edit" a repo I have write permissions too
12:57 marcus suckage
12:58 sri the https part is kind of essential for the hack
12:58 marcus wanted to turn iaw's patch into a pull request so I could see what it does.
12:58 crab also, with a JSON+REST interface, you have to be careful in multiple places about xss all over again.
12:58 sri just don't make me look at it...
12:58 * crab hands marcus diff -u
12:59 marcus crab: what? The terminal? Are we barbarians?
12:59 sri the part with "YEA SO I MADE SOME BROAD ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT EVERYBODY READING THIS DOCUMENTATION AND JUST DELETED THE FIRST HALF" kinda turns me off...
13:02 sri (if we are talking about the same change) ;p
13:03 marcus sri: seems he moved it?
13:04 sri "So I deleted most of it."
13:06 sri i didn't diff or read it though
13:11 marcus http://i.qkme.me/25mw.jpg
13:19 sri http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tyosh​ino-hybi-websocket-perframe-deflate-05 # interesting, might be worth supporting at some point too
13:20 marcus yea
13:24 sri btw. webkit apparently already has rfc 6455 support, it's just deactivated in safari
13:24 sri so much for apple cares about html5 ;p
13:25 marcus even in the latest?
13:25 sri yea, i check nightly regularly
13:25 marcus safari only cares about the cute parts of html5
13:25 marcus apple even
13:26 sri i don't get it, makes no sense, the old protocol is pretty much useless and has no advantages
13:32 melmothX joined #mojo
13:38 andrefs joined #mojo
13:43 judofyr joined #mojo
13:45 andrefs joined #mojo
13:45 abra joined #mojo
14:09 inokenty joined #mojo
14:13 herrclark joined #mojo
14:19 jnap joined #mojo
14:37 olav Hum, is there a way to set a defaul content_type across a controller fx?
14:37 olav or do i have to define it and render with a format?
14:41 amoore joined #mojo
14:46 SmokeMachine_ joined #mojo
14:58 koban left #mojo
15:01 olav It seems that an after_dispatch hook is the way to go
15:30 hshong joined #mojo
15:39 jwang joined #mojo
15:40 dlyke joined #mojo
15:44 andrefs joined #mojo
15:50 Foxcool joined #mojo
15:54 melmothX is Mojolicious::Static safe to use heavily?
15:56 melmothX something like this, basically http://laltromondo.dynalias​.net/~nopaste/view/74824796
15:58 d4rkie joined #mojo
15:59 marcus sri: "Blocking request in progress" would it be possible to say which url it's processing?
15:59 sri marcus: nope
15:59 marcus :-/
16:01 inokenty melmothX: I don't think that absolute path is allowed
16:01 melmothX inokenty: it works in Lite. The point is: am I doing it wrong?
16:03 inokenty melmothX: app->static->serve($self, "/tmp/prova.html") doesn't work
16:03 melmothX $static is Mojolicious::Static->new;
16:05 inokenty Ok, that's works )
16:08 inokenty melmothX: But safety is under your control
16:09 inokenty melmothX: Mojolicious::Static->new->serve($self, $self->param('file'));
16:09 inokenty Dangerous
16:09 melmothX sure, I'm not doing harakiri
16:09 melmothX i'm just asking if am I abusing the method or not
16:11 inokenty I don't see anything abnormal in it
16:11 melmothX ok, thanks
16:12 melmothX i was asking because i recall a conversation here with some warnings about not making mojo serving static files
16:14 sri mojolicious is for dynamic content, for static files there are way better servers
16:14 sri and you are abusing the method
16:17 melmothX i had that feeling, hence I asked :-\
16:17 inokenty melmothX: I lied to you. I've made a great mistake >_<
16:18 sri you told him it's dangerous, that's pretty much spot on
16:21 inokenty sri: Is there a way to get full source code of perl program after all 'use' and 'require' directives are processed, but before compiling?
16:22 melmothX_ joined #mojo
16:23 melmothX_ the point is not the absolute path, that was just an example
16:23 melmothX_ the point is to hide the complicate directory tree behind
16:25 melmothX_ which requires some computing. I know there's mod_rewrite, but then I guess the deployment would become a pain (or not?)
16:28 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojo​licious/Controller#render_static
16:30 melmothX_ wasn't that what i was doing from Lite?
16:30 melmothX_ taken directly from http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Static
16:32 sri none of the code you showed used render_static
16:33 * sri can't read minds
16:35 melmothX_ ok, let me rewrite the question. Is the heavy use of Mojolicious::Static discouraged?
16:35 black joined #mojo
16:36 melmothX_ i need mojo to create the routing before the serving, it's not "plain serving"
16:36 melmothX_ and not from public
16:36 sri i better vanish and let someone more qualified answer
16:37 melmothX_ thanks anyway
17:09 kaare joined #mojo
17:37 xaka joined #mojo
17:44 melmothX joined #mojo
18:05 noganex_ joined #mojo
18:31 melmothX joined #mojo
18:34 noganex joined #mojo
18:38 GitHub32 joined #mojo
18:38 GitHub32 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Pmok2g
18:38 GitHub32 [mojo/master] fixed small MIME::Base64 and MIME::QuotedPrint related bugs in Mojo::Util - Sebastian Riedel
18:38 GitHub32 left #mojo
18:42 GitHub14 joined #mojo
18:42 GitHub14 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/TX_dkQ
18:42 GitHub14 [mojo/master] updated Changes - Sebastian Riedel
18:42 GitHub14 left #mojo
18:51 federated_life joined #mojo
18:53 tempire sri: In the past 10 years, the US executive branch has made a habit of blatantly breaking the law
18:53 tempire it's congress' job to reign it in, but they've given up and just gone for power grabs
18:53 tempire and the media doesn't report it, since they're owned by the lobbyists that push for their own agenda
18:54 tempire so the general public doesn't know about it
18:54 tempire it's a screwed up situation
18:55 tempire the only hope is ron paul.  but the media is doing everything they can to discredit him.
18:55 tempire it's possible he could get elected…though 4 four years would guarantee it.  unfortunately, he's 76 years old.
18:55 tempire :(
18:58 paul i disagree
18:58 paul only about the ron paul bit pretty much
18:58 paul but yeah, believing he is any sort of solution is frankly just silly
18:59 paul he's not a strict constitutionalist, he's as bad as the rest of them, and his power as president would quickly be eroded into nothing
18:59 paul well
18:59 paul saying 'as bad as' is unfair
18:59 paul he shares some attributes
18:59 tempire I believe you are misinformed.  he's nowhere near the rest of them.
19:00 tempire but this is not the forum for the impending discussion, I don't think.
19:00 paul well a good benchmark in my eyes is the whole 'church + state' thing
19:00 paul i'm not an american so my contextual knowledge is not as good
19:02 judofyr joined #mojo
19:04 sri even i have heard of ron paul :)
19:04 * marty voted for Ron Paul in 2008 and will again in 2012
19:04 * tempire too
19:04 ki0 joined #mojo
19:04 sri that's the guy who has the balls to vote for the right things even if he doesn't get payed for it, right?
19:04 tempire yes
19:04 * marty nods
19:05 marty If he had more charisma he would be elected in a second.  After all, the is America.
19:05 tempire indeed.
19:05 paul well
19:05 paul if anything
19:05 paul superpacs have shown
19:05 paul that it's not charisma that matters
19:05 paul it's basically being a corporate whore
19:05 paul which is all important
19:06 tempire superpacs have nothing to do with the candidate.  they are separate organizations formed without any interference.
19:07 paul tempire: have you not been watching colbert?
19:08 tempire they can be a joke, but legally, there is no interference.  there have been accusations, but it all comes down to proof.
19:08 tempire colbert points out the fine line.  and indeed, a fine line it is.
19:08 paul a line so fine that i don't think it's worthy of being called a line
19:08 tempire indeed.  but a separation is there.
19:08 paul you can't 'collaborate' but as gingrich has shown, you can explicitly tell them what to do on national television
19:08 paul and face no repercussions whatsoever
19:08 paul there really is no viable line
19:09 paul anyway i do agree this isn't #politics
19:09 paul so if anyone wants to talk mojo stuff please tlel me to fo :D
19:09 tempire the discussion is fine as long as it's informative and civil, and doesn't edge out any other conversations
19:10 tempire so says the sherrif
19:10 paul tempire: i accuse you of being in cahoots!
19:10 paul etc :)
19:10 paul anyway i can appreciate your point of view
19:10 paul and i do like ron paul's style
19:10 paul but i'm not a libertarian
19:10 paul and i don't agree with libertarianism in all circumstances
19:10 * sri has to google "cahoots"
19:10 paul and the whole 'church + state' thing of his terrifies me
19:10 paul sri: 'collaborating'
19:11 sri google actually has a nice dictionary explanation
19:11 tempire that's the problem.  pretty much every candidate believes in enforcing their morality by law.  bigotry is the new freedom.
19:11 sri didn't know it does that now
19:11 tempire except for…drum roll...
19:11 tempire \o/
19:11 paul tempire: except for who?
19:11 sri the doctor?
19:11 purl well, the doctor is Doctor Who? I'll go summon the tardis...
19:12 paul damn you purl :D
19:12 tempire yep, the doctor.
19:12 paul i'm confused now
19:13 paul maybe i'm misinformed, but didn't ron paul say he didn't believe in separation of church and state?
19:13 paul that is more terrifying to me as a brit than most other things
19:13 tempire he did not
19:13 tempire he believes the govt should stay out of personal decisions.
19:14 tempire which is consistent with the us constitution.
19:14 tempire everyone else wants to do whatever they think is a good idea, whereas he sticks to the rules, regardless of his own personal feeling.
19:14 sri but he's anti public healthcare, no?
19:14 paul he's anti quite a lot of good things
19:15 paul but in general his attitude is good
19:15 tempire yes.  public healthcare is not a good idea in the us.
19:15 * marty nods
19:15 paul wait
19:15 paul is this a joke now?
19:15 tempire it can work for other countries, but not here.
19:15 paul or are you seriously making that point?
19:15 sri unbelievable for us europeans
19:15 paul tempire: america is not exceptional
19:15 paul and i'm sorry, but you're wholly wrong
19:15 tempire it's different.  the culture is completely different.
19:15 paul the diseases are not
19:15 paul tempire: i am a brit, and therefore benefit from the NHS
19:16 paul i already pay proportionately less for my healthcare than you pay in tax
19:16 paul so you've got a huge argument to try and convince me it is unsuitable
19:16 marty The preamble to the U.S. Constitution specifically says “promote the general welfare”  it does not say “provide for”.
19:17 tempire indeed.  the job of the us government is not to support the people.
19:17 paul it is trivially provable that national healthcare promotes the general welfare
19:17 tempire it's the basic law of the land.
19:17 paul point 1. I pay less than you do, and get practically unlimited healthcare for no additional cost
19:17 tempire you can disagree with it, but it's built into our culture.
19:17 paul tempire: the differences of opinion over the wording of the constitution are irrelevant
19:18 paul i've never heard someone argue that a national healthcare system is unconstitutional with any convincing argument
19:18 tempire they are absolutely relevant.
19:18 paul and the reality is that endless demonstrations show it is a more efficient and fair system
19:18 marty It may. But why not provide healthcare at the state level?  Or the county? or the city?  Why is it just ok for the Federal government to provide healthcare?
19:18 paul marty: that is why i call it irrelevant
19:18 paul because it's the concept of universal healthcare
19:18 paul rather than federal healthcare
19:18 paul that i am supporting
19:18 tempire marty: you can't appeal to someone with a different frame of reference unless you establish that foundation.
19:19 tempire that's more effort than I'm willing to put forth at the moment.
19:19 paul i can appreciate the argument that states have devolved rights, we do a similar thing over here with our constituent countries
19:19 paul but i find it hard to believe it could be efficient without federal backing
19:20 mattastrophe joined #mojo
19:20 tempire I will say this…essentially, the us is too diverse.  it's too large.  federal support programs do not have the intended effect.
19:21 paul in what manner are you using 'diverse'?
19:21 tempire the population and their opinions and what 'should' be.
19:21 paul that's definitely not limited to the USA
19:21 paul i think it's a reasonable assumption about any population
19:22 marty There is no evidence that a public healthcare system in the US would not be anything but corrupted by big money and therefore a bad thing.
19:23 paul what evidence could be presented other than studying the healthcare systems of other first world nations?
19:23 paul marty: do you consider those studies to be valid evidence?
19:23 marty Are you implying that the US government is not controlled by big money?
19:24 sri canada is kinda large too :)
19:24 paul nope
19:24 paul i'm pointing out that corporate interests in government exist everywhere
19:24 tempire the US has 9x the amount of people than canada
19:25 paul how is that relevant?
19:25 tempire because of the diverseness of opinion.
19:25 paul oh i'm pretty sure within 30 million people you can get a full range of opinions
19:25 sri germany, uk, norway, sweden… agree with canada
19:25 paul the UK has around 70 million people
19:25 tempire yes.  and more with 300 million.
19:25 paul and our national healthcare is the most efficient in europe
19:26 paul tempire: there are many thousands, perhaps tens of thousands in the UK who support abolishing the NHS
19:26 paul the diversity of opinion is there
19:26 paul but the statistics speak for themselves
19:27 marty Paul: it's great that universal healthcare works well in your country.  So it's evidence that your government is working to some degree.  Howver, that does not suggest it will work here.  Any more than democracy will work in Afghanistan.
19:27 paul marty: so you do not consider studies of other nations to be acceptable evidence?
19:27 paul marty: what could be done to demonstrate it would work in your country?
19:27 paul as it seems to me you're excluding all potential evidence and then arguing from a position of opinion
19:28 sri you basically have two political parties, that doesn't seem very diverse to me
19:28 paul who? the US or the UK?
19:28 sri us
19:28 paul ah, yes
19:28 paul they in fact have in some places mandated two party voteoffs
19:28 paul which is just weird
19:28 sri germany for example has many strong parties
19:29 paul and is currently one of the most healthy countries (economically and physically) in europe
19:29 tempire the diverseness isn't about the parties.  the parties are pretty much the same as it is.
19:29 paul tempire: i'm just struggling to understand the evidence that's convinced you
19:29 sri heck, our green party is one of the big players
19:29 paul when most of the rest of the first world have efficient and well thought of universal healthcare
19:29 paul you must have some pretty strong evidence to convince you that it couldn't possibly work in the US
19:30 marty The U.S is a strange place these days.  I think we are witnessing the fall of Rome and things get funky when that happens.
19:30 paul marty: no argument there
19:30 tempire at any rate, my diverseness point is not a point of argument.  it's an opinion based on observation.  I have no proof of it.
19:31 tempire I also no nothing of the intricacies of european health care.
19:31 paul well to compare, i would say that given the number and depth of studies of healthcare in europe and canada and australia
19:31 paul that we have very strong evidence of its superiority as a system
19:31 paul we do also have private healthcare here, but it complements rather than replaces public healthcare
19:32 paul it's a bonus in higher paying positions, and often a sound investment for hypochondriacs
19:32 atrodo so private heathcare is a scam when public healthcare exists?
19:33 paul to some extent it can be
19:33 paul you're likely to get faster service for non emergency appointments
19:33 sri same here
19:33 paul they might use therapies that haven't been fully approved for the NHS yet
19:33 paul the great thing is essentially that they have to work for their customers
19:33 paul they need to be better than the NHS
19:33 paul and so they compete
19:33 paul which is after all the basis of the free market
19:35 marty Paul: Our constitution only allows the government to protect “rights” that we are born with.  “inalienable rights”.  Therefore, it reasons that if universal healthcare is a “right” and the government “gives” it to you, then the government can take it away.  So, we prefer to think of healthcare as a universal privilege with entities competing for our dollars.
19:36 paul marty: while that may be public opinion, the reality is quite different, so i assume you're not advancing that as an argument against universal healthcare, just as a reason it won't be implemented?
19:37 marty Yes I am.
19:38 paul i see, well i've long ago given up trying to understand the mentality of americans :D
19:39 marty It's unnerving to think that all your healthcare comes from a single source.  What if that source fails?  I'd prefer to have lots of options competing for my attention and supplying redundancy for failover protection.
19:39 tempire paul: that's exactly my point.  it's a different priority set.  the culture isn't easily explained, because the foundations of discussion are different.
19:39 paul marty: the reality is that our healthcare is managed by a number of Primary Care Trusts, which are responsible for an area, and it's not like we are assigned a single doctor and told that's all we can have
19:39 marty Don't get me wrong, I do not dislike universal healthcare and I think it works well in other countries.
19:40 paul marty: for an example, go to http://nhs.uk .. hit 'services near you' and put in 'm16 8nt', which is not a particularly nice area of a major city
19:40 paul tempire: well i can appreciate a cultural argument for why it won't pass. my argument is simply that it is almost undoubtedly a superior system in every way
19:40 marty I disagree
19:40 judofyr joined #mojo
19:41 paul marty: in what way do you believe it to be inferior?
19:41 marty Universal healthcare is a relatively new entity in the cultural history of mankind.  We have done quite will in in its absence.  (hence this discussion)  :)
19:42 paul marty: on the contrary, public healthcare in the UK was introduced as living standards went up considerably
19:42 paul and my argument was its superiority to your existing system
19:42 paul not to any potential system :)
19:43 sri marty: doctors and hospitals still very much compete
19:43 tempire that's fine.  I don't mind the opinion.  Whether it's superior/inferior is not an interest of mine.  I do mind saying that it would work in the us.
19:43 sri it's just payments and coverage of different therapies that multiple trusts take care of
19:44 sri they often even cover different collections of therapies
19:44 sri so there's competition too
19:44 paul tempire: oh i have no doubt it would work, and i would argue that directly too, but i will agree that it may well not be implementable due to opinion
19:45 marty I've heard and read good things on the German healthcare system.  I think it's a fine example of how to do some things right.
19:45 paul marty: what potential pitfalls do you see?
19:45 paul i find that most americans fail to appreciate the peace of mind that is available especially
19:45 * marty think the EU guys do not fully "get" the American mindset.  :)
19:46 paul for example, i ride a downhill bike
19:46 paul and over this next year a fracture or break is likely
19:46 tempire rhaen: ?
19:46 paul minor or major accidents almost certain
19:46 paul but healthcare is not a concern that even begins to enter my mind
19:46 paul airlifts, ambulances, transplants, surgeries, it's all completely free and no obligation
19:46 paul it's an incredible feeling of security
19:47 judofyr_ joined #mojo
19:48 marty Paul:  That's great that you are taken care of.  In America, the question is asked, "if paul chooses to ride his bike down a steep hill, why should society pay for his bad biking skill?" :)
19:48 paul marty: indeed, but that argument is shown to be invalid by the very studies i mention
19:49 paul we in fact pay less tax than you do (proportionately too) to support the NHS
19:49 paul and your tax funds medicare/medicaid, which in many circumstances you are not entitled to
19:49 paul you will also take a salary cut for the cost of your employer provided healthcare
19:49 paul AND copays and similar on top
19:49 marty You can not "prove" that argument wrong.  It's a philosophical position.
19:49 paul marty: not at all, the argument is "why should society pay"
19:49 paul that is an empirically determinable question
19:50 paul and the result of extended study of hundreds of millions of people
19:50 paul is that society saves money with universal healthcare
19:50 mire joined #mojo
19:50 mercutioviz joined #mojo
19:50 sri most people actually don't like breaking their bones
19:50 paul hah, i pretty much intend to this year
19:51 sri "if public healthcare is free everybody will get sick!"
19:51 paul in that i am using it as a benchmark of whether i'm being aggressive enough with my riding
19:51 marty heheheh
19:51 paul but yeah, i don't deny you the philosophical position marty
19:52 paul just the question of pay is an answerable one, that i feel i can answer with extremely strong evidence
19:53 marty Well, lets just say, that healthcare is a tricky subject and having different approaches can only help spur more ideas.
19:53 paul i agree, but the feeling over here is essentially that providing healthcare to everyone is a basic right
19:53 paul and i find it extremely hard to disagree with that
19:54 marty If someone has to perform a service (provide healthcare) is cannot, by definition, be a right.
19:54 sri every now and then i read that going broke because of illness is a common fear in the us
19:54 marty sri: yes it is
19:55 paul marty: you are using a different definition, the ECHR guarantees many provideable rights
19:55 jnap joined #mojo
19:55 melmothX joined #mojo
19:58 marty If the ECHR defines it as a right, then technically they can renege that right.  My point is, "inalienable rights" as defined in the U.S. constitution are rights you are born with.  Therefore, nobody (not even government) can take them away.  That is one of the foundations of the US.
19:58 paul marty: but practise has shown that this is not the case, and in fact the US has deprived citizens of their rights on a number of occasions
19:59 paul and over here, the ECHR is above the country government
19:59 paul so i would argue that we have a pretty good grasp on human rights ;)
20:01 marty I totally agree, the US does not resemble what it should and has a terrible human rights record.  However, my point remains.  If you get your rights from an entity (any entity) then technically those rights can be taken away.
20:02 paul but that point doesn't really favour any system that i can see?
20:03 marty The early United States to a limited degree, but that's subjective.
20:17 mire joined #mojo
20:34 lukep joined #mojo
20:37 marty btw, good discussion you guys.  Thank you.  paul++ , sri++ , tempire++
20:37 paul you too :)
20:37 paul i enjoy a good debate from time to time
20:38 GitHub188 joined #mojo
20:38 GitHub188 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/brrLfQ
20:38 GitHub188 [mojo/master] added tests for common status codes - Sebastian Riedel
20:38 GitHub188 left #mojo
20:50 perlite_ joined #mojo
21:17 sri mr tempire… where are the tweets?
21:18 tempire tweeted and posted
21:18 sri tempire++
21:21 sri http://groups.google.com/group/mojolicio​us/browse_thread/thread/e7a45f61e40c1c52
21:22 sri for the lazy
21:22 mire joined #mojo
21:32 * marty lazily clicks on the link
21:33 marty tempire++
21:36 marty I'm surprised you used DBIx::Class with the super awesome mojolicous mongodb driver thats just about to be released.
21:36 * marty ducks
21:43 tempire wait a second
21:43 tempire List::Util is core?
21:43 tempire when did that happen?
21:44 sri 5.7.3
21:44 tempire lulz.
22:20 mire joined #mojo
22:38 tempire hmm
22:38 tempire looks like you can't specify an inline template and a layout at the same time.
22:38 tempire layout is ignored
23:51 andrefs joined #mojo

| Channels | #mojo index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary