Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2012-02-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:45 tempire has anyone gotten the judofyr heroku example working?
02:51 vervain No... but since you are awake... how about a Makefile.PL or other method of dependency acknowledgment for MojoExample
02:54 vervain README.md is ok... but only ish
02:56 tempire what would be the purpose?  the target is transparency.
02:56 tempire it's just another thing.
02:56 vervain Fair
02:57 vervain You may want to mention DateTime::Format::SQLite
02:57 tempire I already wonder if the dbic tests are too much.
02:59 tempire I don't that's required...
02:59 tempire oh.
02:59 tempire yes of course.
02:59 purl Indubitably.
03:06 vervain Cheers
03:07 tempire done
03:08 vervain tempire: I do believe that you have promoted twitter bootstrap before
03:08 vervain Do you have any references to a 'getting started' entry point?
03:08 tempire I do enjoy the bootstrap
03:09 vervain I know it was done... hence the 'Cheers' :-)
03:09 vervain Do you have any references to a 'getting started' entry point? ;-)
03:09 tempire I updated the index pages as well - the generated markdown has the read me content on it
03:09 tempire the old bootstrap docs were a little more accessible
03:10 tempire but the current ones are fine.
03:10 tempire there's not much too it, really.  include the css file and then read through the top links
03:10 tempire "Scaffolding, Base CSS, etc"
03:10 tempire it's fairly self-explanatory
03:11 tempire or you can just view-source the examples and customize from there
03:13 crab it's very much not self-explanatory
03:13 crab but looking at the source is ok
03:14 crab in particular if you do exactly what the code examples say, you might not get the same results, because the actual markup contains some extra details.
03:15 tempire hmm.
03:15 tempire that is troublesome.
03:15 tempire I haven't used 2.0 yet.
03:15 vervain Fair... I have to provide shoulder or reference shoulders to stand on... in this case I think some authoring is need to provide shoulders... so far it seems pretty impenetrable in HOWTO kind of way.
03:15 tempire I like the new drop down menu look, though
03:16 tempire could be.  I probably wouldn't have been drawn to it had 1.4 docs been in this format.
03:16 tempire or as drawn
03:18 crab vervain: that said, much of the barrier to entry is notional. once i actually stopped thinking and just included the css and started using it, i encountered no real difficult
03:18 crab y
03:18 crab i can't remember, how were the 1.4 docs any different?
03:18 tempire one long document, with examples for layout immediately viewable.
03:19 tempire I didn't experience any difference between docs and display on them either
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03:23 vervain You go to http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap and try and figure you what you are supposed to include in you site as step 1 == fail.
03:24 vervain I have to try and train newbies how to pull themselves up on their own.
03:24 tempire huh.  that is true.  the last one included the css file right at the top.
03:25 crab yeah, that part i remember.
03:26 vervain and to add insult to injury google for 'tutorial' or 'getting started' == garbage.
03:26 vervain Makes me want to to a MJ + Bootstrap tutorial
03:27 vervain s/to to/to do/
03:28 crab MJ?
03:28 purl MJ is probably BLACK?! or WHITE?! or rjbs's daughter
03:29 crab rjbs's daughter seems to have been bootstrapped successfully without a guide.
03:29 vervain FFS... is there a better way to not type out Mojolicious?
03:30 crab oh.
03:30 crab you could call it "M", like iaw4 does.
03:30 crab but it makes me want to smash things.
03:30 vervain I can live with that... M it is ;-)
03:30 vervain You're not in my house!
03:31 vervain :-)
03:31 * crab draws small black skull-and-crossbones next to vervain's name in his book
03:31 vervain You jest.... like I was in your damn book to begin with. ;-)
03:42 tempire \o/
03:42 tempire ok, mojoexample runs on heroku
03:42 tempire this is pretty derned neat.
03:42 vervain WOOT!
03:51 crab vervain: anyway, i'm also thinking about writing an exhaustive bootstrap reference. partly to decide if i want to continue using it as-is, or just take the source and hack on it until i like it better.
03:52 vervain Let me know if I can help
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03:54 vervain I'm dissecting it myself at the moment.
03:57 crab problem is, i care too little about many things that bootstrap does need to care about
03:57 vervain My personal barrier of entry requirements are quite small... typically because I need to be able to provide pointer and let young minds work creative magic. So I have to filter such things pretty carefully
03:59 crab what sort of young minds?
04:01 vervain The less developed personalities in my own head. ;-)
04:01 vervain ls
04:02 tempire heroku is amazing
04:03 crab er, ok
04:05 vervain So I guess you didn't _really_ give up then :-)
04:05 tempire truth
04:05 tempire it's pretty simple, really.  I just misunderstood judofyr's readme
04:06 vervain We all know the sweet sound of head against technology wall. :-)
04:06 vervain The wall _always_ loses :-)
04:09 vervain tempire: what tz are you in?
04:09 tempire pacific
04:10 vervain Why did I think you were living in Europe at the moment?
04:11 vervain Have you ever lived outside the US?
04:11 tempire not for more than a month.
04:11 vervain Where was that month?
04:11 tempire sweden
04:13 vervain Oh ok... were you perhaps there when I started to come around here?
04:13 tempire no
04:15 vervain OK.
04:16 vervain Hey... anyone want to join me and my son at E-Fest tomorrow?
04:16 vervain :-)
04:22 crab what is e-fest?
04:25 vervain Why does everyone ask when the Googles first hit on E-Fest is correct? ;-)
04:26 vervain Seriously though... this is somewhere around the 20th time someone has had to ask ;-)
04:28 vervain Sorry... I'm being an ass... E-Fest is a big indoor electric RC air event... Some say the worlds biggest... and it's in my town.
04:29 vervain http://www.hobbico-efest.com
04:37 crab actually, google tells me it's a national level annual talent competition.
04:37 crab but anyway. much though i like rc flying machines, i will not be attending.
04:40 vervain Where are you crab?
04:53 crab new delhi, india.
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05:13 tempire HYPNOTOAD_DEBUG=1 makes my life so much easier.
05:13 tempire wish I had thought to look for that last week.
05:30 crab what does it do?
05:35 tempire keeps initial process in foreground and shows worker spawning
05:39 crab ah.
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05:53 tempire bam
05:53 tempire hypnotoad on heroku
05:53 tempire http://mojoexample.herokuapp.com/
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07:00 tempire example should be a lot more accessible now.  the live example links directly to each source file.  no need to run things locally to see diffs.
07:01 tempire accessibility FTW!
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07:43 sri tempire++
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07:47 crab accessibility does indeed help to feed the wolves.
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08:43 * xantus[] bows
08:43 xantus[] mooooo
08:47 federated_life moooooooooooooo
08:48 xantus[] mooo + infinity!
08:48 xantus[] how is everyone today?
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08:57 tempire I remain acceptable
09:00 * sri is getting hungry
09:01 * xantus[] uploads sri a sandwich
09:01 xantus[] sammich
09:03 sri *102 Processing*
09:05 xantus[] PUT request success, 100 continue
09:12 tempire what was that ssl proxy from the other day?
09:13 crab mitmproxy iirc
09:17 tempire neat
09:17 tempire now if I could install it
09:17 tempire what's the cpanm for python?
09:18 tempire ah, pip
09:19 federated_life is that better than easy_install ?
09:19 tempire no idea
09:20 federated_life easy_install sucks
09:20 federated_life but I always compile from source the modules, do you use cpan
09:21 tempire cpanm
09:21 tempire cpan is for old people
09:21 tempire the command itself, I mean
09:22 federated_life hows it do for resolving dependencies?
09:22 tempire it works.
09:23 * sri likes "cpan-outdated | cpanm"
09:24 tempire also pm-uninstall
09:24 sri yea, and all running in a perlbrew
09:24 * tempire is reminded to run cpan-outdated
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09:52 crab i don't seem to have a cpan-outdated.
09:55 crab i propose to make M::Command::version print some stuff before checking for the latest version
09:55 crab because as it is, it takes several seconds for me before printing anything
09:55 crab any thoughts?
09:55 purl any thoughts are welcome =)
09:56 xantus[] thanks purl
09:57 crab most of the time, i don't care about the up-to-dateness anyway, because i *know* the latest version already. and i can ^C instead of waiting if i make the change.
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09:59 tempire crab: http://search.cpan.org/dist/App-cpanoutdated/
09:59 tempire the japanese have all the best stuff
10:07 crab i've committed the version change, but not pushed. it's not clear to me if something like this needs to be voted on, so i'll err on the side of caution.
10:07 crab but i'll be travelling for the next several days, so i may not see comments until sometime next week.
10:10 crab bye.
10:13 sri crab: if in doubt, make a branch and let us vote
10:16 sri we could have applied it even while you're away :S
10:21 sri btw. i vote for the change
10:24 sri i'd argue that every behavior change needs to be voted on
10:25 * sri assumes tempire voted yay too
10:25 tempire what are we talking about?
10:25 sri mojo version not waiting for the remote version check before showing something
10:26 sri a branch would have made this *a lot* easier -.-
10:26 sri but i'm assuming he moved the user agent code below the version printing stuff
10:27 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/maste​r/lib/Mojolicious/Command/version.pm#L16
10:31 sri in fact, we all should be using more branches
10:32 sri basically, "mojo version" would print the version overview before checking search.cpan if you have the latest version installed
10:35 * sri pokes tempire
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10:35 tempire sounds reasonable
10:35 * sri pokes yko, just because
10:35 * yko waves
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10:36 GitHub170 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FzlkQA
10:36 GitHub170 [mojo/master] improved version command to be more responsive - Sebastian Riedel
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10:36 sri crab: i think that's your change, right? :)
10:40 sri the younger generation seems to mostly vote on features in github issues these days
10:41 sri with "+1" comments
10:42 sri i actually wouldn't mind +1/-1 comments as reassurance when discussing something
10:45 tempire those kids
10:45 purl those kids are an annoying pair of bonobos!!!
10:45 tempire with their +1s and their twitters
10:45 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/pull/284 # please somebody say "-1" :)
10:45 tempire I don't know what TTIN is
10:45 sri SIGTTIN
10:46 tempire and BFU?
10:46 sri you can make hypnotoad spawn another worker with the TTIN signal
10:46 sri no idea what BFU is
10:47 tempire I'm really excited about heroku
10:47 sri it's so simple
10:47 tempire it's about to get simpler
10:47 tempire :o
10:48 sri just wish they wouldn't filter out websockets
10:48 tempire they do?  that's disappointing.
10:48 sri yea, at leat that's what judofyrs test hinted at
10:49 sri but it sure wouldn't hurt to try again
10:49 sri long polling is also not so great, since they cut off connections after 30 seconds
10:49 purl okay, sri.
10:50 sri but not like reconnecting is hard
10:50 sri even reconnecting websockets every 30 seconds wouldn't be *that* bad
10:51 sri you're screencasting a heroku deployment, aren't you? :D
10:51 tempire nope.
10:52 sri Oo
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11:12 * sri waits for tempire to elaborate on "it's about to get simpler"
11:12 * sri shakes tempire
11:15 tempire it's a surprise!
11:17 sri NOOO
11:17 xantus[] o/` I need a dollar - dollar - dollar is what I need o/`
11:20 * tempire welcomes the return of xantus
11:30 sri xantus[]: btw. i had to ban the websocket irc client
11:31 sri the From messages got too spammy
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12:14 sri hmm, open pull requests scare me a little
12:15 sri so easy to misclick on the green button
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12:37 xantus[] sri: k, just too much, or real spam related
12:37 sri too much
12:37 purl rumour has it too much is better than nothing
12:37 xantus[] k
12:37 sri most were endlessly long google links
12:39 xantus[] yeah, using referer can be a nightmare
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13:01 vervain tempire: MojoExample wants File::Slurp also
13:01 vervain tempire: Would your prefer these as github issues?
13:01 sri github issues are never wrong
13:02 vervain If there were >0 already I wouldn't hesitate ;-)
13:02 vervain But there's just something about taking virginity that makes a guy more polite. ;-)
13:05 vervain I'm wondering if MojoExample should just bit the bullet and shoot for CPAN distribution... then we'd get hundreds of guys finding the bumps that I am.
13:05 vervain s/guys/people computers robots dogs cats gerbils etc/
13:08 xantus[] take mojo's github issue virginity, just be easy ;)
13:09 xantus[] oh, there's already 3
13:09 sri and 280 or so closed ones
13:10 xantus[] wow, quite a bit
13:11 vervain MojoExample https://github.com/tempire/MojoExample
13:11 sri even though i closed github issues for a few months :)
13:11 vervain We already know Mojo has issues :)
13:11 vervain But MojoExample is so shiney, and new, and sweet, and tweetable :-)
13:12 * mojo punches vervain on the nose
13:12 vervain And I've banged it with two issues now...  :-)
13:12 vervain :-)
13:15 xantus[] It would be nice to adapt MojoExample to be a front end to data from sickbeard
13:23 xantus[] I have something to do tomorrow
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13:31 xantus[] hah, sweet, ~/.cache/notify-osd.log has the notification log that I can tail for my little example
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14:16 redr0bin hi
14:17 redr0bin just a few quick questions before I'll start to create my first mojo app :)
14:17 redr0bin what is the best orm to use with mojo ?
14:21 xantus[] depends
14:22 redr0bin i'm searching for something simple like ORLite but not for sqlite
14:23 vervain I don't think that there is a 'best' one... especially with regards to Mojo specifically... You'll not go far wrong wtih DBIx::Class though.
14:23 xantus[] you can learn from MojoExample: https://github.com/tempire/MojoExample
14:23 vervain I like simple too... that's why I don't bother with any ORM at all.
14:24 vervain That's not strictly true... I do have DBIx::Class and Rose both in production :-)
14:24 redr0bin vervain, you mean DBIx::Simple ?
14:25 vervain Not tried that yet... is it worth a look?
14:26 vervain What I meant by simple... is I typically don't use ORM modules.
14:26 vervain Or at least I try not to until the benefit is obvious.  I try to be conservative like that.
14:27 redr0bin before I moved from perl to ruby I've used to use plain DBI
14:27 redr0bin now thought to move back to perl :)
14:28 redr0bin and give a try to mojo and dancer
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14:32 xantus[] I use mojo and couchdb a lot
14:32 sri so much drama around couchdb recently
14:34 vervain references?
14:34 purl i think references is not myisam, only innodb, eh?
14:35 xantus[] sri: oh yeah? I haven't heard
14:36 sri xantus[]: http://damienkatz.net/2012/0​1/the_future_of_couchdb.html
14:36 sri there's a fight between apache couchdb and couchbase
14:37 vervain LOL... reminds me of a certain departure from Catalyst :-)
14:38 xantus[] oh jezus
14:39 vervain Couchbase is the shit though... I really hope it solidifies.
14:40 sri it has the same weakness as couchdb
14:40 sri which is that you have to plan your queries in advance
14:42 sri going memcached protocol only is also quite a big step backwards
14:42 vervain What get's me wet about couchbase though is 'offline apps' that act as if they are online... then sync up when there connected... that's the shit!
14:43 xantus[] at least that couchbase single, blah blah nonsense is over
14:43 sri websockets with json queries would be nice for a database
14:44 xantus[] I suggested it 2 years ago
14:47 marcus I'll likely be doing a websocket project in march
14:47 marcus with a native ios client.
14:49 marcus I'm thinking redis+mojolicious for the web service.
14:49 sri pubsub?
14:49 purl somebody said pubsub was what got me hacking on PCJ in the first place :)
14:50 marcus mm, it's for real time commenting
14:50 sri ah
14:51 xantus[] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COUCHDB-841
14:51 xantus[] thats the websocket ticket
14:51 xantus[] and here's the event-source one
14:51 xantus[] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COUCHDB-986
14:53 marcus xantus[]: neither feature actually made it into the product?
14:53 xantus[] no
14:54 marcus seems like apache model is doing a lot of good for couchdb :p
14:54 xantus[] they aren't forward thinking
14:54 xantus[] imho
14:55 marcus The Humble Guy
14:56 xantus[] I built my event system using eventsource/xhr with a fallback to websocket, and longpoll/xhr
14:57 xantus[] I just debounce the send calls when using xhr
14:58 xantus[] a single mojo useragent watcher on the _changes feed does the work
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15:35 sri hmm, linkedin doesn't respect my mail settings…. great
15:35 * sri wonders if he has to delete his account again
15:42 marcus YOU WILL RESPECT MAH AUTHORITY!
15:55 sri !
16:15 memowe tempire: it's still in my todo tab list! :) will do something with contenticious first. #screencast
16:27 marcus https://github.com/radamant/analdiffist mot gay ruby module I've ever seen.
16:30 DaTa PILE OF POO
16:30 purl somebody said PILE OF POO was U+1F4A9
16:33 vervain joined #mojo
16:45 marcus I am the Great Cornholio! I need TP for my bunghole!
16:59 rhaen joined #mojo
17:05 crab hi.
17:10 vervain MojoExample: /js/main.js not found.
17:12 vervain tempire:  Do you want pull requests for MojoExample?
17:14 crab on github == wants pull requests
17:14 sri crab: please fix my last commit if it's different from yours
17:15 crab identical.
17:15 sri \o/
17:16 * sri can read minds after all
17:16 crab i'll make sure to have very simple, one-dimensional thoughts, then you can do it all the time!
17:16 * sri senses tempire is thinking about ponycorns right now!
17:17 vervain @crab: good point :-)
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17:20 crab btw, in india, people tend to read "@" as "at the rate"
17:20 crab even in email addresses.
17:21 vervain Ah... I was using twittereze
17:21 vervain It's a bad habit I should probably nip in the bud in irc anyhow. :-)
17:21 crab i know. it was a random observation.
17:22 crab @vervain before you know it you'll drop the ":" and start adding hash tags #horrors
17:22 vervain That interesting though.
17:22 vervain :-)
17:22 vervain Very often things in India seem to have a synonym in Britain... but that one I've not heard of before.
17:23 sri it's true. #perl #mojolicious
17:25 sri oh, github has changed the project layout again
17:25 sri now they show the languages used
17:27 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo # 0.1% JavaScript
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17:35 vervain Anyone know where I may find a static HTML page with examples of the most common (if not every) elements?
17:35 vervain I thought a quick google would solve that in seconds... but na. :-/
17:35 sri what for?
17:35 purl for fun.
17:36 vervain So that I can fiddle around with styling... and demo.
17:36 mire joined #mojo
17:36 sri oh… boring ;p
17:37 vervain Of course... that's why I'm looking and not busy writing. :-)
17:40 vervain And I'm trying to put together three levels of web development classes.
17:40 vervain This would be needed around about day 1. :-)
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17:50 vervain Is there something like a Test::Mojo spider... that confirms links?
17:50 crab http://learn.shayhowe.com/html​-css/terminology-syntax-intro/
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18:15 tempire vervain: issues first, pull requests after discussion
18:16 vervain Cool... I've posted a few issues.
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18:17 GitHub128 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/0gdMEA
18:17 GitHub128 [mojo/master] fixed a few comments in Mojo::DOM::CSS - Sebastian Riedel
18:17 GitHub128 left #mojo
18:18 sri really happy with how easy to follow the Mojo::DOM::CSS code now is
18:24 vervain How would I go about extending M to serve a index.html file if it looks like the right thing to do.
18:28 tempire ->render_status
18:28 tempire er
18:28 tempire ->render_static
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18:30 GitHub93 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/pQvMgg
18:30 GitHub93 [mojo/master] simplify sibling combinator implementation - Sebastian Riedel
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18:31 sri removing code \o/
18:34 sri tempire: haha, you hate pull requests out of the blue too?
18:35 tempire I've learned from watching your experience
18:35 sri ;p
18:37 tempire perlbrew --notest ftw
18:39 tempire I don't think I would mind them for mojoexample, actually.  but it makes sense to discuss first, to make sure nothing is missed.
18:41 sri yea, same reason i generally prefer to vote on a feature, more eyes to catch flaws
18:44 tempire oops
18:45 tempire use Modern::Perl +2012 requires 5.14
18:45 * sri wants 5.14 to go mainstream
18:46 sri push $foo, … and so on
18:47 tempire I want for ($arrayref)
18:47 sri hell no
18:48 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/bl​ob/master/lib/Mojo/Util.pm#L611
18:48 tempire oh that's true.
18:48 tempire I've been testing out "map {} shift" lately
18:49 tempire to avoid a separate $self = shift line
18:51 sri crab: btw. here's a less ambitious but way more useful xs hacking project for you :) https://code.launchpad.net/~mye​rs-1/pyopenssl/npn/+merge/92416
18:52 sri that's the python patch for NPN support
18:57 marcus why is NPN useful?
18:57 sri you can't have SPDY without it
18:58 sri SPDY is always TLS + NPN
18:59 sri that's why python folks are in a rush to get it working
19:00 sri ruby and node.js already have it
19:26 marcus go crab, go
19:46 tempire vervain++
20:15 rhaen oh boy.
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20:28 GitHub155 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/X3wC-g
20:28 GitHub155 [mojo/master] made sibling combinator slightly faster - Sebastian Riedel
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22:01 rhaen hej, folks
22:01 rhaen I need some sort of system to build quick presentations - like S3. Any recommendations?
22:12 tempire a storage service for presentations?
22:19 rhaen nah, more a presentation system which is capable of hacking together presentations in a quick way
22:20 rhaen possibly without network access. There is S5 - there is XUL
22:20 rhaen a browser is everywhere, however, using XUL it has to be Mozilla. *ugh*
22:21 rhaen there are some plugins for inkscape - but, hm. That's not a quick way - using LibreOffice impress might be easier then.
22:33 tempire google docs
22:33 purl google docs is one of the google apps.. its the word proc, spreadsheet, etc or a good choice though or rather annoying imo
22:33 tempire impress.js
22:33 purl impress.js is really quite shiny.
22:34 tempire google docs has a presentations component
22:35 rhaen hm, just found it. I am using the spreadsheet and the docs components. Never used the presentation thing.
22:35 rhaen Now I am :)
22:36 rhaen wow. impress.js looks nice :)
22:37 stephan48 yap

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