Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2012-02-24

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:38 sri damn, looks like Net::SSLeay is broken
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02:07 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/293 # i'm gonna label stuff that can't be done yet with "Future" instead of "Todo"
02:08 sri maybe that will also encourage discussions about future features
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02:15 tempire I'm a dork.  oauth is working just fine with session cookies.
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02:42 mojocasts has logged in from twitter, and looooves ponycorns
02:42 mojocasts :o
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03:09 sri Oo
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07:33 marcus http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2012/02/r​ails-went-off-rails-why-im-rebuilding.html
07:43 marcus Hmm. Wonder how we can make mojolicious even easier to deploy.
07:52 Netfeed man, that was like 3-4 posts in one
07:58 poundyz joined #mojo
07:58 poundyz hi all
08:00 poundyz i'm learning mojolicious here ... now I'm codin with mojo::lite... on the session I use plugin 'session' => { session => {  ... } }; .. how do I can the session handler in i wanna create a session ? $self->session seems taken by mojo's session
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08:01 crab "how do i can the session handler in i wanna create a session"?
08:02 * crab 's head explodes
08:03 poundyz can = call
08:03 poundyz sorry
08:04 poundyz i was trying to create the session .. in the doc it said $session->create; but i have no idea how to refer the $session
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08:09 crab you should not be using $session->create at all.
08:10 crab just use $self->session(var => $value) to set, and $self->session('var') to read it back.
08:16 poundyz crab:  I've tried that ... but somehow it doesn't write to my db
08:16 poundyz i was trying to use plugin::authentication and plugin::session .. so the session of authentication store at db instead of signed cookies
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08:39 crab write to your db?
08:39 crab why don't you want to use signed cookies?
08:39 crab store a key to something in your database, if you want.
08:41 crab i'm not sure even the author of Mojolicious::Plugin::Session would recommend it these days.
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08:47 poundyz crab: okay then I'll go for signed cookie, just that I'm too used to the db session
08:48 poundyz btw, if signed cookies ... can the app force expire session ? like remove from db entries (if db storage)
08:51 crab $self->session(expires => 1)
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09:57 tempire_ poundyz: the default session uses cookies.  it's the hipness these days.
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10:34 olav Howdy guys
10:35 olav Is there an easy way to force decoded json to latin1?
10:35 crab just guys? what about mojo beasts?
10:35 olav Oh, oh :)
10:35 olav sorry
10:35 crab olav: use Encode
10:35 olav Howdy all Mojo creatures
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10:36 olav Yeah, well, I can do that
10:36 crab Encode::encode("iso-8859-1", $str)
10:36 crab olav: if you try to take shortcuts somehow, it'll come back to bite you hard in future. believe me, it's not worth it.
10:37 olav I was hoping you could tell Mojo::JSON: "give me latin1 - dude"
10:37 olav and then just make it happen :)
10:38 olav you = you, me, all Mojo creatures - big and small
10:40 crab you could inherit (or monkeypatch) mojo::json to (try to) re-encode and return your string values in a particular encoding.
10:49 olav I think Ill put that on my "someday" list of hobby-projects. My data structures are shallow, so a simple loop through the keys, encoding (like u showed) both keys and values are just a couple of lines of code
10:52 olav crab: Oh, yes. Character encoding grief seems to be like a rainbow of unimaginable hues of blues.
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10:54 judofyr olav: isn't JSON supposed to always be UTF-8?
10:54 crab yes, but that doesn't mean you can't use it to encode data that could also be encoded in latin-1
10:54 olav jodufyr: yes. But when ... exactly
10:55 judofyr ah, I see
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11:47 poundyz about Mojo::Plugin::Authentication .. if I added ( authenticated => 1) to the sub (e.g., get '/blah' => ( authenticated => 1 ) => sub { .... } ), it will throw 404 (not_found) to both user that never login or expired session, how do I tell if it's an expired session?
11:47 poundyz I don't think it's nice to serve a 404 to expired session
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11:51 marcus latin1 is dead to me.
11:51 Netfeed latin2 then?
11:53 marcus 💟 unicode
11:53 Netfeed i bet you like latin9!
12:09 ZadYree huhu
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12:32 marcus sri: $r->get('/foo' => 'foo#index') # this is illegal syntax now?
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12:40 marcus og doh, it's parsed as name.
12:42 omf_ Are there any gotchas when deploying multiple mojo apps on Apache
12:45 * sri declares marcus illegal
12:46 marcus sri: $r->get('/','index')->to('main#index') is fine.
12:48 marcus sri: I wonder why $r->websocket shows up as GET in the 404
12:48 sri because websocker handshakes *are* GET?
12:48 sri websocket
12:48 marcus I guess
12:48 * marcus & # squash
12:50 sri maybe we should rename send_message() to send()
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13:00 sri and unify send_frame/send_message to send
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13:03 poundyz does ladder sub { .. } = under sub { .. } ?
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13:28 Kharec joined #mojo
13:28 Kharec hi there
13:28 purl bonjour, Kharec.
13:28 Kharec Oh, on peut parler français? :)
13:30 ZadYree Only if the Hypno Toad permits it.
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13:31 GitHub12 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/VKqEWw
13:31 GitHub12 [mojo/master] renamed send_message methods to send in multiple classes - Sebastian Riedel
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13:31 sri rather big api change
13:31 sri but i think it's much better
13:31 Kharec okay.
13:32 Kharec So guys I have a simple, probably the most easy question on Mojolicious for you, on one code: http://paste.debian.net/157414/
13:32 sri also a lot closer to the browser api
13:32 Kharec The title of the page isn't print :/
13:33 Kharec And I'm trying to understand why. Yes, I'm a beginner with mojo :)
13:35 sri marcus/tempire/crab: i think a soonish release might be appropriate :)
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13:39 Kharec Sorry for the deconnexion.
13:43 Kharec maybe there's not $self->render(title => "blablabla");?
13:44 Kharec arf, i've to go. sorry guys
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13:54 crab sri: you can have a release soonish or a releasish soon
13:57 crab 2.fiftysomething!
14:05 ZadYree I can keep the answer for Kharec when he'll back. Feel free to brainstorm for free ^^
14:21 marcus crab: that's very preciseish
14:27 sri \o/
14:33 sri any thoughts about ->send()?
14:33 * sri vaguely remembers marcus even asking for that
14:34 marcus o/' $return->sender o/'
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14:34 crab sri: don't care, seems ok
14:35 marcus sri: can't remember asking for it, I'm fine with it tho.
14:35 marcus (short method names)++
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14:40 crab mojo cpanify always gives me a connect timeout
14:41 sri pause down?
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14:44 trone mojolicious++ # set httponly by default
15:00 crab doesn't seem to be
15:00 sri doesn't time out for me
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15:02 GitHub133 [mojo] amenonsen pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/qzXb0A
15:02 GitHub133 [mojo/master] Bump VERSION after release - Abhijit Menon-Sen
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15:09 sri crab++
15:16 stephan48 crabs do releases now?
15:16 stephan48 why?
15:18 crab sometimes they get an itch in their carapace
15:19 Quai_ 0promille
15:20 Quai_ fun friday
15:21 Quai_ (yes, wrong window)
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15:25 GitHub69 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/AB430w
15:25 GitHub69 [mojo/master] added a few WebSocket examples - Sebastian Riedel
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15:45 crab hum. i suppose it's a bit obsessive to worry about the fact that hidden_field generates <input ... />
15:46 judofyr crab: why worry about that?
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16:12 diegok Hi!, is there some command or something that will create static version from mojo app? (of course just routes and not much besides templating)
16:14 judofyr diegok: wget --recursive?
16:15 diegok judofyr: yeah. That'll work when all is linked :)
16:15 judofyr diegok: ./script/app routes + wget? :)
16:15 diegok judofyr: right
16:15 diegok that and doing what --recursive does.
16:27 sri marcus: don't you think tempires heroku commands will make mojolicious easy enough to deploy?
16:28 sri re "marcus: Hmm. Wonder how we can make mojolicious even easier to deploy."
16:29 sri it's even free for small apps
16:31 sri kinda funny i never heard anyone ever complain about node.js being hard to deploy
16:31 sri perhaps we should just drop CGI support :D
16:32 inokenty =)
16:34 * crab ponders apache 2.6
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16:51 crab i want to see some nice diagrams
16:51 sri about?
16:53 crab anything :-) i'm bored.
17:12 xaka joined #mojo
17:15 sri heh
17:16 sri the spdy spec is a good read if you're that bored :)
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18:42 sri anyone using filevault2?
18:43 * sri considers enabling it but is worried about performance
18:48 tempire I don't think it's a good idea to drop cgi support.
18:48 tempire though maybe someone should take the time to use it so we could give real help to people.
18:48 * tempire hides
18:49 tempire I've hesitated on filefault for the same reason.
18:49 sri WELL VOLUNTEERED!
18:49 purl you the /(wo)?man/!
18:50 tempire I have a ssd with 8G ram and quad i7, so it probably should concern me.  but still...the WHOLE disk?
18:50 * sri wonders if marcus uses filevault2... he tends to be quick with enabling new stuff
18:50 tempire http://osxdaily.com/2011/08/10/filevault-2-ben​chmarks-disk-encryption-faster-mac-os-x-lion/
18:51 sri yea, it look slike it doesn't matter
18:51 tempire it looks like the filevault is a little bit faster
18:52 sri you mean slower
18:52 tempire oh wait.
18:52 sri just a little
18:52 tempire In comparison to old normal, I guess.
18:52 sri *a lot* faster than the old one
18:53 tempire I don't know that those numbers/bars mean, though.
18:53 sri crab: here are your diagrams :D
18:53 sri http://osxdaily.com/wp-content/uploa​ds/2011/08/filevault-2-benchmark.png
18:53 sri these make a lot of sense
18:54 tempire hmm.  so open apps like 1.5 seconds on my computer, so these differences in time shouldn't even be noticable.
18:54 sri "Impressively, overall read and write performance is barely effected despite the drive being completely encrypted. Your data is truly safe, without much performance sacrifice."
18:56 tempire ah, built-in AES instructions.  that's why.
18:59 tempire chrome is the only websocket supporter at the moment, right?
19:04 sri firefox too
19:04 sri and safari in the next release
19:05 tempire hmm.
19:06 sri http://my.opera.com/cstrep/blog/2012/02/​24/using-hypnotoad-in-production-anyone # wtf?
19:06 sri since when is hypnotoad a psgi server? where is the ticket?
19:06 sri cosimo: wtf?
19:08 sri and that's the second time you spew fud and refuse to talk to us
19:08 cosimo ticket?
19:08 purl https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/newticket
19:08 sri i for one am done running after you
19:08 cosimo what are you talking about?
19:09 cosimo running after me? i'm surprised
19:09 sheriff_ watches calmly
19:09 sri yea, i'll be silent now before it gets ugly :)
19:11 ZadYree this guy should maybe get back to php and xampp
19:11 tempire cosimo: I don't believe anyone has even hinted at the sort of problems you've indicated in the article
19:12 cosimo well, it's problems i have had since trying to use hypnotoad
19:12 tempire gotta let someone know
19:12 cosimo for example, h. --stop /script/something will not stop the server
19:13 tempire I've never had a problem.  what's the command output that you get?
19:14 tempire for future reference, it would be great if you notified the channel, or a github issue before posting that sort of article.
19:15 cosimo i'm looking for other people that run it in production, that's the point of the article
19:15 sri "How can you use hypnotoad at all? It's unstable, doesn't stop correctly, doesn't realize when you're using symlinks for PSGI apps... I mean, it's a total fail for me."
19:17 cosimo if you're offended by that, i can change it, but it still fails to work properly for me
19:17 sri where is the report?
19:17 purl well, the report is pretty thin, actually
19:17 sri when did you give us a chance to fix the bug if it was in fact a bug?
19:18 cosimo sri: i'm not inclinged to report any more bugs since you removed all github tickets people had filed, including mines
19:18 sri umm... no
19:18 sri that's not true
19:19 cosimo maybe i don't remember well then. didn't you just remove all github issues from the project?
19:19 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues?sort=create​d&amp;direction=desc&amp;state=closed&amp;page=1 # all 300 issues are still there
19:20 sri i deactivated issues for a short time, but never deleted any
19:20 cosimo i see
19:21 cosimo that's good, didn't know that. I apologize.
19:22 cosimo I usually didn't get very helpful replies though. I have to admit that it made me reluctant to continue filing stuff.
19:28 sri what makes that blog post offending to me is the lack of information, you did not open a ticket, did not send a mail to the list, did not say anything here, and did not include any details in the blog post itself
19:28 sri it's textbook FUD i'm afraid
19:29 sri last time you did that for "too many irrelevant tests in mojolicious" in your slides i tried to contact you many times, but was ignored
19:30 xaka how can i get access to log from controller?
19:35 cosimo sri: how did you try to contact me?
19:35 sri here and by mail
19:35 cosimo yes, i'm referring to the cookie test cases :)
19:37 cosimo fair enough, i'm adding some information to the blog post, and removing the "fud" parts, must have been my frustration
19:37 tempire xaka: app->log->*
19:38 sri cosimo: or delete the blog post and open an actual ticket that will allow our core devs to fix the problem
19:38 cosimo again, i didn't want to spread any fud, i apologize if it was seen as that
19:38 marcus Sri, tempire: tshirt for you! http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-media/prod​uct-gallery/B0037TPED4/ref=cm_cmu_pg_setImg?​ie=UTF8&amp;totalImages=18&amp;pageSize=10&a​mp;sort=rating&amp;currentImagePage=0&amp;cu​rrentImagePageOffset=0&amp;currentImageID=mo​VNKO8QOF9BY&amp;action=setImg&amp;page=0
19:38 sri \o/
19:38 tempire I will purchase it only if it's a picture of that guy on the shirt.
19:39 xaka tempire: thx, didn't find it in docs. i checked http://mojolicio.us/perldoc​/Mojolicious/Controller#app first, then http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious. Don't see "log" attribute there, probably need to update that part
19:39 tempire I prefer the robocop variety: http://muffinlabs.com/sites/default/fil​es/images/robocop-unicorn-01.small.jpg
19:41 marcus Cosmio: we have a customer using hypntoad in production, and startsiden has it in testing atm. I also use it for some nordaaker production apps.
19:42 marcus But i don't quite understand the PSGI references in your post.
19:43 crab i also use hypnotoad in production on mul;tiple sites, and don't have any sort of problem with it
19:44 crab it sure would be nice if i didn't have to restart it when i changed something, but i understand why i can't expect that from it, and i live with it just fine.
19:48 cosimo marcus: do you run anything special when pushing new code out? just hypnotoad myapp.pl?
19:48 marcus Yes, just that.
19:48 marcus Earlier i used kill.
19:49 marcus Before sri added the easy syntax.
19:49 cosimo i tried to explain a bit more what i'm doing and the problems i'm having. maybe it's that i'm using symlinks that always point to different versions, so i'm forced to kill + restart, i don't know
19:49 marcus Cosimo: made a github issue yet?
19:50 marcus Cosimo: with regards to the development of sri, it's worth mentioning that we've moved to a core developer team solution, so sri is not alone any more.
19:50 marcus Hahaha
19:50 marcus I meant the development of mojolicious.
19:50 * tempire consoles sri
19:50 marcus Fraudian slip?
19:51 * sri crashes
19:51 marcus It's also worth mentioning I've had a couple of drinks :-D
19:52 sri it's also worth mentioning i did not have enough drinks yet
19:52 * marcus puts on gang fight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GaKaGwch0U
19:53 crab and i haven't had anything to drink at all
19:53 marcus Cosimo: the sym links might be the issue, I have none.
19:55 sri cosimo: just don't complain if you're not getting any answers, blog posts on personal blogs are not a supported channel for reporting issues
19:57 marcus Crab: do you drink?
19:58 marcus (yes,yes, I am on the ipad, sri)
19:59 sri marcus: you're on an ipad again!
20:00 marcus That was *too* fast, you were already typing that.
20:00 marcus We're watching tintin.
20:00 crab marcus: yep.
20:00 * sri wants to watch tintin
20:01 marcus It is in 720p now.
20:01 crab does tintin drink?
20:01 sri omg... they made another ghost rider movie
20:01 marcus Crab: the captain drinks.
20:01 sri they canceled firefly... but make another ghost rider... WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:02 marcus Capitalism.
20:02 purl i guess capitalism is Schizophrenia.
20:02 sri http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/orig​inal/000/126/314/3cd8a33a.png?1306264975
20:03 * marcus has read this tintin comic when he was a kid!
20:03 inokenty Ghost Rider 2 is a piece of crap. The first movie was much better
20:03 marcus Hahaha
20:03 marcus The first one was a piece of crap.
20:04 sri :S
20:05 marcus Imdb agrees, 5.2
20:05 sri oh, instead of yelling i'm gonna use this meme from now on http://socialpie.files.word​press.com/2011/03/upset.jpg
20:06 marcus I am a little teapot.
20:06 sri canadians sure know how to protest
20:06 sri sudo make me some tea
20:07 * marcus tips over.
20:07 sri purl: i am a little upset is http://socialpie.files.word​press.com/2011/03/upset.jpg
20:07 purl ...but sri is A PONIE!!1! and a  or no more a javascript noob or evil or a spelling guerilla or the temporary channelclown or a snob now or the perl guerilla or a small mouse with a big head aiming for world domination or the evil sith or has no clue about fuzzy logic or no longer a real hacker :/ or a copycat or pimp to many children or a holy man or looks a lot like pitr or puny or making Mojolicious delicious...
20:07 sri ops
20:08 marcus Almost nerfed your factoid.
20:08 sri phew
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20:11 marcus Annoyed that limechat for ipad haz no image preview.
20:14 sri well, sometimes that's a good thing
20:15 marcus Also, that i can't use my theme :) considering buying mango irc hd.
20:22 tempire I'm confused by Caleb Cushing's request.
20:30 tempire huh.  where does app->log get linked with Mojo::Log?
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21:00 sri tempire: maybe he wants Mojo::UserAgent::Transactor
21:01 tempire It sounds to me like he wants Test::Mojo, but I'm assuming I'm missing his intent, since I would presume he already knows about that.
21:01 * sri shrugs
21:02 sri btw. if --stop causes so much trouble perhaps we should remove the whole flag
21:02 tempire ack
21:02 tempire I use it.  marcus uses it.  crab uses it.
21:02 sri let them just use the signal
21:02 marcus Lets see an issue first.
21:02 tempire yes.  issue first.  otherwise it's giving in to fud
21:02 * sri shrugs
21:03 sri i think we all know there won't be an issue :S
21:03 tempire I love the flag.  Hated the manual kill signal.
21:03 marcus Sri: cosimo is a member of oslo.pm =]
21:09 marcus cosimo: one thing that was unclear to me from your blog post, do you specify the location of the pid file im your hypnotoad config?
21:10 marcus Cosimo: also, are you using app->config->{hypnotoad} or the deprecated hypnotoad.conf?
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21:24 xdg howdy.  Any mojo experts in the New York area?  NY.pm is interested in someone giving a presentation about it.
21:24 marcus Hey xdg.
21:24 xdg o/
21:24 tempire I went to new york once.
21:24 marcus Me too.
21:25 sri i've seen NY on tv
21:25 marcus It was about 9 hours by plane. Not that fun with a toddler :)
21:25 xdg Anyone passing through in the future would be welcome to give a talk, too.  :-)
21:25 tempire me too!
21:25 marcus Xdg: say hi to jester from us :)
21:25 tempire xdg: would there be cookies?
21:25 xdg I did the toddler airplane thing a couple times.  I don't want to do that again for a while.
21:25 * tempire doesn't work for free, damnit!
21:26 xdg tempire, I think pizza is more traditional for "meetups", not that we have any sponsors to pay for it
21:26 tempire no sponsors in ny?
21:26 xdg marcus, remind me who jester is IRL?
21:27 tempire shuttershock and buzzfeed alone have the $$$ to pay for thousands of pizzas.
21:27 marcus Xdg: jesse sheidlower.
21:27 xdg tempire, we're working on it
21:27 xdg ah. yes.  Jesse -- haven't seen him in *years*
21:28 marcus I met him in nyc last easter :) sri and me knows him from catalyst.
21:28 xdg if we get NY.pm tech meetings a bit more regularly with a bit more turnout, then yeah, I'd hope we coudl get some companies to splurge on pizza
21:28 xdg what's catalyst?  <kidding>
21:28 * marcus refrains from an answer to avoid offense. :p
21:29 marcus Where is alnewkirk geographically?
21:29 marcus I know he in the us.
21:29 * chansen also remembers jester, the man with knowledge of the English language =)
21:30 tempire oh, I'm pretty sure he's in ny
21:30 tempire elb0w__: is in ny as well
21:31 marcus I guess jzawodn is on the west coast.
21:33 sri soo, do we have to change all mentions of REST to Hypermedia API in the docs?
21:33 sri or do we wait until it's called HAPI?
21:33 tempire ?
21:33 xdg I've got to run, but if anyone wants to promote mojo in NYC, have them msg me or send an email to dagolden at cpan
21:33 xdg ttfn
21:33 sri http://blog.steveklabnik.com/​posts/2012-02-23-rest-is-over
21:34 xdg left #mojo
21:34 marcus Sri: hateoas?
21:34 sri :D
21:35 tempire I have a HAPI system.
21:35 tempire My architecture is inherently HAPI
21:35 tempire your architecture doesn't demonstrate true HAPIness
21:36 sri HAPI people
21:36 tempire is that a hackernews article?
21:36 tempire comment!  COIN it!
21:36 * marcus is a believer in SHiNI people.
21:36 sri shiny HAPI people
21:54 sri tempire: i think he'll be HAPI with http://mojolicio.us/perldo​c/Mojo/UserAgent#build_tx
22:30 sri hmm
22:31 * sri wonders if HYPNOTOAD_DEBUG should be replaced with default logging to the application log
22:31 tempire I feel like a lot of people would like that.
22:31 sri stuff like "[Fri Feb 24 23:30:36 2012] [info] Loading application "/Users/sri/repo/mojo/examples/websocket.pl"." during restarts seems rather useful
22:32 * sri investigates
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23:01 GitHub40 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/2_lTIQ
23:01 GitHub40 [mojo/master] improved Hypnotoad with many info level log messages - Sebastian Riedel
23:01 GitHub40 left #mojo
23:02 sri please test
23:02 * sri pokes tempire
23:03 sri not entirely sure about the log level
23:03 sri info seems appropriate, but that means it will be enabled by default
23:05 sri can be tested easily with "./script/hypnotoad -f examples/hello.pl"
23:05 sri depending on number of workers it can be a bit spammy with the start/stop worker messages
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23:18 xaka would be cool to see in docs which one attributes and methods are inherited from base class without surfing between links. just figured out that Mojolicious based on Mojo so "log" attribute comes from it
23:28 tempire xaka: it's in ::lite and the cookbook
23:29 marcus Sri: i like this idea in general, but I am not sure about the worker start/stop messages.
23:29 tempire that would also deviate from the whole expected pod format.
23:35 vervain Is there a way to 'reuse' things from exception.development.html.ep?
23:35 vervain I can copy the code... but e.g. <div class="box infobox" id="request"> as a helper would be shweeeet.
23:39 sri you're not supposed to reuse the built in templates, they will change
23:39 sri marcus: feel free to tweak
23:40 marcus Vervain: use bootstrap instead.
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23:41 GitHub94 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/WIa1Ag
23:41 GitHub94 [mojo/master] improved Hypnotoad logging a little - Sebastian Riedel
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23:41 vervain I want to reuse the 'debug' info... in my 'debug info'... not for my general site.
23:41 vervain The fact that this will change is part of the beauty of re-using it.
23:42 vervain Most specifically the div I referred to earlier.
23:42 vervain marcus: and yes... I'm already boostrapped
23:44 marcus Sri: maybe up the log level for those to 'debug'?
23:44 vervain Even div#routes would be a good one to be able to re-use.
23:46 sri oh, i think some log messages are actually even a little wrong :)
23:46 marcus Vervain: due to our deprecation policies exposing those would limit our options, for little gain.
23:46 sri i get upgrade failed for a successful upgrade
23:46 sri bit tired now though, maybe one of you can take a look ;p
23:47 * marcus is walking towards bed with ipad.
23:48 vervain marcus: <shrug> I guess I'm confused why exposing them as a helper like '%= request_debug_info' could interfere with deprecation... it could be clear that they are development only and mutable.
23:48 vervain But I'll take the point that I should hack my own and keep the pieces. :-)
23:53 marcus :-)
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