Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2012-03-05

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 tempire sri: two instances of Test::Mojo...two different app instances, or the same one?
00:02 sri mixed i think
00:02 tempire thought so
00:02 tempire I'll have to handle my own forking tests, then
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00:20 * ttyS1 has logged in from twitter, and friggin loves ponycorns!
00:20 ttyS1 o yeah :)
00:20 ttyS1 nice
00:22 cstamas just one hint the msg input has history for me by default which can be worth to disable
00:22 cstamas tempire: is the source up somewhere?
00:22 tempire not currently
00:24 ttyS1 please just tweet it when it is
00:25 cstamas I would use it for my team
00:26 cstamas we have an internal irc :)
00:26 tempire when it's refined enough, I will.
00:26 cstamas thanks
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02:16 * mojocasts has logged in from twitter, and friggin loves ponycorns!
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04:50 cfedde I get
04:50 cfedde qwe
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07:15 * tempire revisits snipmate
07:15 marcus Tempire: you could keep it online, and forward replies and messages to twitter, ;)
07:16 marcus (the irc connection)
07:16 tempire that's an interesting idea
07:17 tempire DMs clutter up the feed, though, don't they?
07:17 marcus I get them in a separate tab.
07:17 tempire send me a dm
07:18 marcus Or on twitter?
07:19 tempire shnikies more sponsors for yapc
07:19 tempire has yapc ever had this many sponsors?
07:19 marcus Yapc::na => daytona?
07:20 * tempire tattoos github on his face
07:21 tempire ok, twitter dms don't clutter up the web feed, that's what I was concerned about
07:21 tempire I separated the irc connection so it could be easily offset to a separate server.
07:22 tempire that's sort of an end goal
07:28 tempire heroku seems to rate limit outgoing connections significantly
07:28 tempire the irc connection wasn't smooth, but that may be a result of how I'm managing the stream.
07:29 tempire I'd like to make it work on heroku and then have it be a deployable app.
07:29 tempire one command, your mojolicious app store1
07:29 * tempire stares into the distance
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08:08 crab hmm, a 5.2 earthquake.
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08:29 amirite \q
08:29 amirite \q
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08:44 amirite how do i tell my team they're doing it wrong ?
08:50 amirite i'm so disgusted by the code i want to puke and find a new job
08:50 amirite and i just left a different job because i was disgusted at their code
08:52 Netfeed heh, you don't want to see my works code, 2k rows of inlined javascript inside cgi-scripts among other things :)
08:53 amirite right
08:54 amirite the lead coder at this job decided it's a good idea to code html tags as sub-routines
08:54 amirite and he wants me to use them
08:54 amirite i want to cry
08:54 amirite i can't get anywhere like this
08:54 amirite i've got a sinking feeling in my gut that i'm doing a bad thing
08:57 amirite and we're not supposed to use git branching, we're just supposed to pull and push to master branch and stomp on each other's code
09:00 amirite i feel seriously fucking stifled
09:02 amirite hmm i wonder why i'm not seeing debug information
09:09 tempire </rant>
09:10 tempire best solution: it's the same as any other programming problem. your team and the stipulations are the inputs.  design your mindset around it.
09:10 tempire since you control the function, you control the output.
09:11 tempire in other words: it's all in your head.
09:11 tempire or just quit.  that's what I've done :)
09:11 amirite what would you do? program with their broken paradigm knowing you're going to have to trash your code once the lead programmer realizes he was doing it wrong?
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09:13 amirite how do i control the log level of a morbo server
09:13 amirite suddenly i'm not seeing debug output, probably because someone turned it off and we're all stomping on each other's code
09:14 tempire double prime is hiring.  they're fully telecommuting.
09:14 tempire they pay pretty well, from what I understand.
09:37 amirite where's the document that explains how to access stash values from templates
09:38 tempire http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojoli​cious/Guides/Rendering#Stash_data
09:38 tempire http://mojocasts.com/e4
09:38 amirite i don't want a mojocast thank you
09:39 amirite suppose i don't like accessing everything as scalar variables and i want to access my stash as a hashref
09:40 amirite is there a way to assign a global $stash variable as $self->stash
09:40 amirite (global inside template scope)
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10:10 tardisx amirite: stash('your_var') ?
10:10 tardisx I guess you want $all_stuff->{some_thing} though
10:10 tardisx I'm not sure why
10:19 crab amirite: challenge the lead programmer to a duel, win, and then fix the development style
10:19 crab if you lose, you were wrong anyway
10:21 sri DUEL!
10:21 Netfeed to the death!
10:26 * tardisx grabs popcorn
10:39 * sri waits
10:39 * amirite stabs eyes
10:40 amirite my own eyes that is
10:40 amirite i don't deal with bad code well
10:40 sri you're doing it wrong!
10:40 sri duel doesn't work that way
10:40 * tardisx throws amirite a rapier
10:41 amirite is there a built in way to pretty-format json
10:44 tardisx just decode it and use Data::Dumper
10:47 cosimo amirite: json_xs < your-file.json
10:48 cosimo nvm
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11:50 amirite how do I encode to json internally i.e. not render
11:50 amirite i could just use JSON::XS but i want to know the built in way to do it
11:51 amirite no point being redundant, i'll leave that to other developers
11:51 amirite partial ?
11:51 * amirite tries
11:51 tardisx umm Mojo::JSON?
11:51 purl Mojo::JSON is probably about 3 times faster than json::pp
11:52 tardisx did you look at the documentation?
11:52 crab render_partial(json => ...)
11:53 amirite yes the problem with the documentation is that it is extremely disparate
11:54 amirite everything is scatterred
11:55 crab pipe it through gzip -9?
11:56 sri snappy if you want to be hip
11:56 vervain I'm thinking that once the reader is dropped off at the end of Guides there should be pointers to module docs that should be read next.
11:56 sri vervain: already there
11:56 purl that was quick.
11:57 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc#HIGHLIGHTS
11:58 vervain Which does't even have Mojolicious::Controller where render_partial is.
11:58 sri Mojolicious::Controller is one of the first links from the tutorial
11:58 sri it's one of the first concepts you should learn
11:59 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldo​c/Mojolicious/Lite#Routes
11:59 vervain Indeed... The docs are perfect.
11:59 sri if someone missed that section he already completely failed
12:00 sri and that's where i stop talking to you...
12:00 * crab sighs
12:00 vervain The same complaints about the docs turn up time and time again... and I never see the core developers get it.
12:01 vervain On one hand they want it to be penetrable... but then they don't listen when people suggest that the docs are not penetrable.
12:03 crab do you have a concrete suggestion to improve the docs?
12:04 judofyr crab: the front page http://mojolicio.us/perldoc should contain links to *everything*
12:04 judofyr at least when there's no clear tree-structure
12:04 judofyr it's not obvious that you need to go to the tutorial of M::Lite to find M::Controller
12:06 crab sounds doable. maybe submit a patch that adds another section below HIGHLIGHTS?
12:06 judofyr this is much more usable than mojolicious.us/perldoc: https://metacpan.org/release/Mojolicious
12:12 amirite here's a suggestion
12:12 amirite document like this http://search.cpan.org/~mstrout/Cata​lyst-Runtime-5.90010/lib/Catalyst.pm -- a core document which lists every method attached to the main application instance, even if it's a helper which really points to something else
12:13 sri perhaps i was completely wrong and we should make it harder to learn mojolicious :)
12:13 amirite and if it's too much to include direct documentation, then atleast under that method point to the right doc
12:13 amirite every method/object
12:13 sri amirite: *all* methods and attributes for every single class in mojolicious *are* documented already
12:13 amirite right, i know that
12:14 amirite but there should be a central doc which points to it
12:14 amirite based on what the user has in their hand, the main application instance
12:15 vervain Or... since guides are supposed to be just that... expand the Patial Rendering section in the guides to include calling Controller->render_partial as well... this demonstrated nicely the flexibility available to the user.
12:15 amirite for example, http://search.cpan.org/~mstrout/Cata​lyst-Runtime-5.90010/lib/Catalyst.pm#$c-%3Eresponse -- there is nothing new here, just something that says "returns a Catalyst::Response object" where the package is linked so the user can inspect the documentation on a tangent
12:15 vervain I'd be more than happy to submit a pull request if you would like.
12:15 amirite guides are more tutorialistic
12:16 vervain Make me work off my insubordination :-)
12:16 amirite i don't want a tutorial i want a quick hard direct reference
12:16 vervain amirite: the quick hard reference should and is in the module docs.
12:16 vervain Maybe it is an index that you are after more than anything?
12:16 crab calling ->render(..., partial => 1) is the same as calling ->render_partial
12:16 amirite yeah gimme an index of things attached to $self->app
12:16 amirite i'll be happy with that
12:17 vervain Yes... yes it is... so highlight that to the reader.
12:17 crab but a couple more examples of partial rendering would be good.
12:17 crab vervain: go on, then. submit a pull request.
12:17 * sri will stay completely out of this... but is looking forward to voting on pull requests
12:18 crab if there's voting, putin will win.
12:18 sri :D
12:19 marcus oh hai
12:26 sri they should make putin the official GOP candidate
12:28 marcus he would crush obama
12:28 marcus in a woodchipper
12:31 sri muhahahahaha
12:32 sri almost 100% for putin in chechnya?
12:32 marcus yes, that's why they keep bombing moscow and stuff. they love putin so much.
12:32 sri i see
12:34 Netfeed it's just some fireworks that gone awry
12:42 sri marcus, tempire, crab: would be nice if we could make voting on pull requests a thing https://github.com/kraih/mojo/pull/296
12:42 sri in fact, everybody could start voting
12:42 sri to give us an idea of what the community wants
12:43 crab sounds kinda painful, it's a two-line patch
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12:43 crab and waiting for people to express opinions about everything doesn't work very well it seems
12:44 sri it seems to work rather well for other projects
12:44 crab i don't like saying Mojolicious::Controller->render_partial(), it sounds like that's directly a permissible call
12:45 sri so comment with "-1"
12:45 vervain I'm switching it over to an issue anyway...
12:46 marcus vervain: why?
12:46 vervain Becuase it seem that the issue is with verbiage... easier to discuss that in an issue... and then prep a commit when it's settled.
12:46 crab vervain: what your comment should say seems to be "Same as above"
12:46 vervain And more 'community'
12:47 vervain I just want to highlight to the read that render_partial is from Mojolicious::Controller since that's what hung up amirite earlier.
12:48 crab i don't think that's something that should be done at each place where there's a call to render or render_partial or one of the other variants.
12:48 crab is there someplace earlier in the rendering guide where you can point out that all the variants of render are controller methods?
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12:49 sri not all are
12:49 sri render_inline() for example does not exist
12:50 crab so?
12:50 purl i guess so is visiting parents, I'm tagging along for moral support
12:51 sri so you can't say *all*
12:51 crab by "variants of render" i mean methods named render_blah() which call render
12:52 sri ah
12:53 * sri likes how you can reference other tickets and links just appear between them
12:53 vervain is render(... partial=>1) ever 'preferable' to render_partial(...)?  I can see where you may have a reasone for $self->stash( partial => 1);.... $self->render(...) but not the one liner.
12:54 crab vervain: i'd say not really. there are some cases where you may build up a hash of things to pass render, but partial usually isn't in one of them since it changes the behaviour completely
12:56 vervain So then is there _ever_ a reason to use render( ..., partial => 1) in preference to render_partial(...)?
12:56 vervain I mean... it was created for a reason... just wondering what it is.
12:56 crab what was created for a reason?
12:57 marcus is there any reason to use render_partial over render(partial=>1 ?
12:58 vervain Semantic clarity
12:59 marcus I don't even know what that means.
12:59 crab semantic clarity was created for a reason?
12:59 crab marcus: the rendering guide uses ->render(blah, partial => 1) in an example in the partial rendering section
13:00 crab marcus: vervain is asking why that shouldn't be ->render_partial() instead
13:00 marcus crab: yes, I'm just asking if there's any reason to use render_partial instead?
13:00 vervain If calling render_partial is the outcome then it's clearer to call it directly...
13:00 marcus I don't even understand why we have two syntaxes for this.
13:00 crab vervain: that's backwards, render_partial is a shortcut for render(partial => 1)
13:00 marcus I would prefer to deprecate render_*
13:00 vervain Oh... well heck...that's even worse :-)
13:01 vervain marcus++
13:01 crab marcus: i would definitely not like to do away with render_partial
13:01 marcus crab: what benefit does it have over render(partial=>1 ?
13:01 vervain render_partial to me is looking more like a helper.
13:01 crab render_partial behaves very differently from the other render_blah, if the call looks like the others then it won't be as easy to find
13:02 crab i can always grep for render_partial, but i can't grep for the other because there are too many ways in which the partial could be hidden (on another line, inside a hash, etc.)
13:02 crab and render_partial in particular may have security implications, so it's good for it to be easily reviewable
13:04 sri i'm ok with deprecating a few of those
13:04 sri but they are rather popular i think
13:05 sri render(partial => 1) is the core implementation, it will never go away, render_partial() is a shortcut added by popular demand
13:06 * vervain forgets all about render_partial... look the rainbow's back!
13:06 sri marcus: if you make a proposal i will support it
13:08 sri render_text, render_data, render_partial and render_json are the aliases
13:09 crab why deprecate them at all? it'll just piss people off for no good reason
13:09 vervain Is it possible to make then default helpers in a way as to minimize the breakage of current usage?
13:09 sri crab: people are obviously already pissed off
13:10 vervain Don't include me in that camp... my rainbow is back.
13:10 crab people are pissed off because render_text, render_partial, etc. exist?
13:18 sri https://github.com/jamadam/mojo-legacy/comm​it/92ddb70b77669430dfb0c9b10b8e87f0998f58a8 # wow
13:20 Netfeed nice
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14:00 memowe marcus: done.:)  #hypnotoad #cookbooklink #contenticious
14:02 crab nice. three tags, and i still have no idea what you're talking about.
14:02 memowe crab: marcus knows. :)
14:02 memowe He suggested adding hypnotoad as a deployment option to the Contenticious website
14:02 memowe And he suggested adding a cookbook link.
14:03 memowe At first I thought Contenticious wouldn't work with hypnotoad because it doesn't with morbo. But it works.
14:04 crab why doesn't it work with morbo?
14:05 memowe I don't really know.
14:06 memowe Maybe the main reason has something to do with the fact, that the Contenticious app is an installed module.
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14:06 memowe I couldn't manage to set the home directory right.
14:06 memowe But I didn't invest that much time since morbo isn't important for Contenticious users.
14:07 memowe It's important for me, but I'm not important.
14:08 memowe The highlighted line doesn't do what I want with morbo: https://github.com/memowe/contenticious/blo​b/master/lib/Contenticious/Generator.pm#L60
14:10 memowe And the error message is something like Can't load application "webapp.pl": Config file "/usr/local/bin/config" missing
14:14 memowe Need to go now. If you have any idea how to fix it, crab, that would make my evening. :)
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14:41 marcus memowe++
14:41 marcus memowe: specify MOJO_HOME env?
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15:16 sri memowe: go and find out!
15:16 sri i really don't see how home detection should be different in morbo and hypnotoad
15:16 sri both use the same application loader
15:17 sri could be a bug
15:17 purl No, it's a feature.
15:17 sri purl: unlikely
15:17 purl sri: huh?
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16:40 amirite suppose i want to 'use Mojo::Base "My::Base::Class" => [qw/with some extra flags/]' -- can I do that?
16:40 * amirite is inspecting Mojo::Base.pm now
16:41 memowe marcus: That's exactly what I'm doing on https://github.com/memowe/contenticious/blo​b/master/lib/Contenticious/Generator.pm#L60
16:42 memowe sri: I'll find out, some day. :)
16:42 sri memowe: now! ;p
16:42 * sri cracks the whip
16:42 memowe Whow.
16:42 * memowe hides behind his lunch
16:43 sri it's too late for lunch anyway
16:43 memowe Yep.
16:44 memowe All I can say is 1) BUT I NEED LUNCH! and 2) the $ENV{MOJO_HOME} doesn't get through to $app->home there.
16:44 sri that's very suspicious
16:45 memowe 1 or 2?
16:45 purl 1 or 2 is the original signal
16:45 memowe purl: k
16:45 purl k is "named capture" or j
16:45 * sri pats purl
16:45 * purl stabs
16:45 * sri stabs purl back
16:45 * memowe salps da purl aruodn a byt wiht al rage truote ???!
16:46 memowe Look! That is hungry memowe! He don't even canning to speak!
16:48 * sri steals memowes lunch
16:48 sri nom nom nom
16:48 purl I eat your head!
16:50 memowe sri: I added print $app->home after MOJO_HOME and app creasun. hypnotoad tells the right dir, morbo says nothing about it.
16:51 memowe What's the best place to read code to find out what happens?
16:51 sri MOJO_HOME is assigned in MyApp->new, doesn't do anything later on
16:52 sri i suppose Mojo::Home is a good start
16:52 sri maybe Mojo::Server->load_app
16:52 memowe I use the home dir to determine the file name for the Config plugin.
16:53 memowe hypnotoad gets it right, morbo looks for /usr/local/bin/config
16:54 sri only difference i see is that hypnotoad loads the app early in the manager process, and morbo as late as possible, in the spawned worker
16:54 sri app is still loaded the same way though
16:54 sri with load_app()
16:58 memowe sri: I used MORBO_DEBUG and he told me that he can't load webapp.pl because the config file is missing. But it's that file that sets MOJO_HOME to be correct (which is used to determine the config location).
16:58 memowe I don't understand the program flow there.
16:59 sri don't think i can help you there, but it smells like a bug in your code i'm afraid
16:59 memowe How can morbo know that he should load a config file?
16:59 sri that error is not from morbo
16:59 sri it's from your app
16:59 memowe Maybe I should go to lunch.
17:00 sri to be more precise, from the config plugin in your app
17:00 memowe Yes, because MOJO_HOME doesn't make i through to $app->home
17:00 memowe s/\bi\b/it/
17:01 memowe That's very strange.
17:02 memowe I read the code of a vanilla script/foo file, which is very similar to my generated webapp.pl code.
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17:05 memowe The difference seems to be nothing. Set MOJO_APP to 'Contenticious' and call M::Commands->start
17:05 memowe I set MOJO_HOME before.
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17:09 memowe OK, I see.
17:09 memowe No, I don't.
17:14 memowe OK.
17:14 memowe FindBin is different with morbo.
17:14 memowe For hypnotoad it's the right thing, for morbo it's just /usr/local/bin
17:16 * sjn had been bitten by the morbo + FindBin thing too
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17:19 memowe sjn, sri: ok. Tried to be too clever.
17:19 memowe s/FindBin/dirname/
17:24 * sri wonders why hypnotoad worked
17:26 sri ah, you might get in trouble with zero downtime restarts
17:28 sri we could imporve that, but i can't think of a good test case
17:29 sri patch is easy... like "+ local $0 = $file;" in Mojo::Server->load_app
17:31 memowe sri: dirname works fine for me now.
17:31 memowe With all three.
17:32 sri good
17:33 sri i'll not hack $0 for now, since most people will use morbo for development anyway
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17:38 tempire Everyone has an issue with the docs, and it will always be, because everyone has different expectations
17:38 tempire Because everyone learns differently, they think it's obvious that it should be done x way
17:39 tempire What we really need are different forms of docs
17:39 tempire Like community members are always putting together new jquery indexes
17:40 * tempire calls on the next person who wants the docs adjusted to make a Mojolicious app for a jquery-like keyword index
17:41 sri we also still need a wiki gardener
17:42 sri there's a lot of useless garbage piling up
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17:58 sri hmm
17:58 sri i have a patch with test that makes FindBin work
17:58 sri worth it?
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18:02 sri it's still a rather stupid idea to use FindBin though
18:02 sri since it breaks as soon as you for example require an app into a test
18:03 sri hmm
18:04 sri http://hastebin.com/raw/laxoqeqeje # here's the patch, i'm not gonna commit it i think
18:04 sri better to fail early with morbo
18:06 vervain FWIW... I to got bit by the FindBin thing... but then realized why and stopped using it... not sure it needs/wants fixing
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18:36 * tempire awaits perl coroutines as a result of all the yapc funding
18:45 sri mst told me recently he was working on something
18:45 tempire he works on the core?
18:46 sri it's a module, but more sane and minimalistic than Coro
18:46 sri but yea, i'm afraid if it doesn't get in core widespread adoption will be tricky
18:47 sri almost everything that requires a compiler is hard to sell
18:48 tempire wonder how he plans on keeping track of the position in the sub
18:48 sri i think EV/AnyEvent works so far because it's only advanced programmers that are using it
18:48 sri tempire: you should play a bit with Coro i think
18:49 tempire I had forgotten about it until you just mentioned it
18:49 sri the around_dispatch hook can be used to hack it into mojolicious
18:57 sri tempire: https://gist.github.com/1980355
18:57 sri something to get you started
18:58 sri the dispatchers run async in a coroutine
19:02 sri tempire: https://gist.github.com/1980385
19:02 sri and a real example to show the advantage :)
19:03 sri when you know what you're doing it's quite fun
19:03 sri it's 60 vs 20 rps here btw.
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19:03 sri of course not a very scientific benchmark ;p
19:10 sri with a little bit of work you might even be able to get $self->ua to "just work"
19:10 sri which would enable plugins
19:20 sri of course there are more problems with blocking looking coro apis
19:21 sri one non-blocking backend request is easy, but what if you need multiple non-blocking database queries?
19:21 sri no-brainer with callbacks
19:35 * marcus doesn't grok the Coro examples.
19:35 marcus think I spent all my iq earlier today :/
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19:38 tempire shopping!
19:38 purl i heard shopping was a drag. or a great time, if it's *barber* shopping! </kitch>
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19:45 sapphire How would one go about matching all URLs with one route in a ::Lite app?
19:53 sapphire Never mind, got it.
20:04 * sri refunds marcus some of his iq
20:05 sri it's easier than it looks though
20:06 sri you have one thread that runs the web server ioloop, async {} creates a second one in which the get '/' => sub {} runs
20:06 sri and the cedes switch between both every 0 seconds (every other tick)
20:07 sri async {} creates a new thread for every incoming request
20:07 sri control stays with the first thread though, until the recurring timer calls cede
20:07 sri only then the async block runs
20:08 sri i'm creating a new useragent for every request because they are currently limited to one request at a time without callbacks
20:09 sri it works because blocking useragent requests are fake and non-blocking internally
20:09 sri which results in cede getting called regularly without blocking
20:11 sri i think if you understand the coro example you unerstand most of the really hard design decisions in mojolicious regarding non-blocking and event loops
20:12 sri http://thechangelog.com/post/18801002263/inductio​n-polyglot-database-client-for-mac-osx-supportin # interesting
20:18 tempire rock on
20:18 tempire visualize scatterplot
20:21 * irs goes under cover for a bit
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20:51 * mojocasts has logged in from twitter, and friggin loves ponycorns!
20:51 mojocasts moi.tempi.re now supports command line history
20:51 mojocasts \o/
20:53 DaTaMUC joined #mojo
20:53 * DaTaMUC has logged in from twitter, and friggin loves ponycorns!
20:53 DaTaMUC neat :)
20:57 irs neat
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22:02 marcus http://www.windley.com/archives/2012/03/a​synchronous_http_requests_in_perl_using_a​nyevent.shtml?utm_source=feedburner&amp;u​tm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+P​erlWeekly+%28Perl+Weekly+newsletter%29 why would you use this if you can do it with Mojo?
22:03 marcusramberg joined #mojo
22:03 * marcusramberg has logged in from twitter, and friggin loves ponycorns!
22:03 marcusramberg moo
22:14 tempire hmm
22:14 tempire seems there's a bug
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23:13 tempire what's the big 5.10.0 bug?
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23:17 * mojocasts has logged in from twitter, and friggin loves ponycorns!
23:17 mojocasts moi.tempi.re has minimal syntax highlighting for nicks
23:18 * mojocasts highlights himself
23:19 vervain I'm not seeing the unprintable+ACTION any more. :-)
23:19 mojocasts I fixed that days ago
23:19 mojocasts DAYS!
23:19 mojocasts :)
23:19 vervain Sorry.. I'm so 45 seconds ago :-)
23:19 * vervain wonders if that's a global add campaign
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