Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2012-03-21

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Time Nick Message
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00:42 GitHub134 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/KC8Vcw
00:42 GitHub134 [mojo/master] improved Mojo::Reactor and Mojo::IOLoop to pass timer id as argument to recurring timers - Sebastian Riedel
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01:10 GitHub146 [mojo] kraih pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/eLPrsw
01:10 GitHub146 [mojo/master] Removed timer id argument from recurring timers again - Sebastian Riedel
01:10 GitHub146 [mojo/master] removed handle argument from io watchers in Mojo::Reactor - Sebastian Riedel
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01:10 sri more minimalistic
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01:41 GitHub9 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/WAaalg
01:41 GitHub9 [mojo/master] slightly better timer example - Sebastian Riedel
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03:04 Cyrus I have a potentially stupid question -- I'm preparing to build a webapp that I don't want to necessarily babysit in terms of keeping it up to date -- I see in the coding guidelines for Mojo that backwards compatibility is taken seriously. In keeping Mojo up to date on an install -- would it be unreasonable to assume that it rarely breaks apps?
03:04 tempire don't use experimental features, and you're fine.
03:04 Cyrus With Rails I notice this is a huge problem. I'll build an app for someone, come back a year later, and now Rails is doing X and Y now and upgrading to the latest version is a pain in the ass.
03:06 sri we will deprecate features and they will disappear in the period of a year, prolly not popular ones, but in that timeframe some stuff will break
03:07 Cyrus I see.
03:07 sri but there is to my knowledge no web framework in existence that will stay 100% backcompat for over a year
03:07 Cyrus Hmm..in that case, and I hate using this term, but would you recommend Mojo for what is typically called "enterprise" software?
03:07 Cyrus Yes that's probably true, but from experience Django seems to be pretty good about it. Rails is not.
03:07 Cyrus And I'm about to jump onto the Mojo train I think. :)
03:07 Cyrus Just wanted to know what I'm in for. :D
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04:27 tempire wow.
04:27 tempire it's true, there really is very little that's experimental anymore
04:33 tempire just a few modules, and some ioloop methods
04:33 tempire https://gist.github.com/2144386
04:41 tempire and one less in master, of course
04:58 Cyrus tempire: When you have to deal with a SQL db, do you prefer to use one of the popular ORMs or go commando and just something like dbi?
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06:22 tempire I don't like ORMs
06:23 tempire They're a failed experiment
06:23 tempire but there's not much else available within perl at the moment.
06:23 tempire I go with DBIx::Class
06:23 tardisx despite it's shortcomings I like Rose::DB::Object
06:23 tardisx *its
06:24 tempire I've never tried rosedb
06:24 tempire I'd like someone to make a perl port for c#'s massive
06:25 tempire It would be easy enough, but there's some aspects to c# that I don't understand, so I haven't taken on the task.
06:25 tempire but I like the direction it takes.
06:25 tempire https://github.com/robconery/massive
06:26 tardisx every new project I consider some form of nosql, then I slap myself and go back to postgresql, or sqlite if it's really small
06:27 tempire I've only used nosql for a worm
06:27 tardisx before it was cool I managed a legacy system tied to a single file NDBM database with a billion records in it
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06:28 tardisx locking was global, records maxed at 128 bytes
06:29 tardisx I should say before nosql was cool; this system was never ever cool
06:32 tempire does rosedb have a schema loader?
06:32 tardisx yep
06:32 tardisx I use it initially
06:32 tardisx then update manually
06:32 tempire that's good.  I wouldn't touch it without a two-way flow.
06:33 tardisx it's a nice timesaver
06:34 tempire Cyrus: if you're new to dbic, there's a mojolicious example with a schema loader, schema deploy, and fixture loading with tests at http://github.com/tempire/mojoexample
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10:18 memowe o/
10:20 tempire \o
11:22 * sri yawns
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12:24 GitHub88 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/WZsSoA
12:24 GitHub88 [mojo/master] added "caching_lite_app.t" test - Sebastian Riedel
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12:25 sri don't see how else to make that test more reliable
12:26 sri it fails on slow machines since the time limit is reached
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13:22 binaryking i've got a hang to mojo
13:22 binaryking but having a basic prob.
13:22 binaryking I have many webpages.
13:22 memowe sounds like a big prob. ;)
13:23 binaryking i have declared a get '/englang' and i wanna keep it in another perl file.
13:23 binaryking how do i do that?
13:23 memowe In early days, we always giggled: "I have a problem. I use windows and ..."
13:23 memowe binaryking: use Mojolicious instead of Mojolicious::Lite
13:23 binaryking and then...........?
13:23 purl NO AND THEN! or correct in that sentence
13:24 Ultali the docs on growing an app are quite good binaryking
13:24 memowe binaryking: use different controllers for different things.
13:24 binaryking memowe: for example.............?
13:25 memowe binaryking: not for example. for code separation.
13:26 binaryking memowe: no.........no.......can u give me an eg, please? :)
13:26 Ulti binaryking: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolici​ous/Guides/Growing#Controller_class
13:26 memowe IIRC, tempire can.
13:26 memowe Yep, and read the growing guide
13:27 memowe binaryking: https://github.com/tempire/MojoExam​ple/blob/master/lib/MojoFull.pm#L29
13:27 Ulti binaryking: if you generate the default Mojolicious full app it has an example to build on
13:27 Ulti you just define routes in the main app file and tell it which controller class#method to look at
13:27 memowe (and https://github.com/tempire/MojoE​xample/tree/master/lib/MojoFull)
13:29 binaryking Ulti: that was really useful. thanks a lot :)
13:29 binaryking memowe: thank u too :)
13:30 Ulti no worries thank whoever wrote the docs ;) probably sri?
13:30 binaryking sri: thanks :)
13:30 binaryking 4 d docs
13:32 Ulti by default binaryking you can see the docs for your version of Mojolicious in a full app by visiting   yourdomain.com:3000/perldoc   if you are using morbo for testing
13:32 binaryking Ulti: alright. :)
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13:33 * Ulti goes back to writing his mojolicious app
13:34 binaryking and yes..............when i specify a script src as src="static/core.js"
13:34 binaryking it thinks it to be another controller or a GET statement
13:34 binaryking should i specify the whol URL, instead?
13:36 memowe binaryking: just use the public directory for static files like javascript.
13:36 memowe place it in $APP_DIRECTORY/public/core.js
13:36 memowe And use src="core.js"
13:36 memowe It should "just work"[tm].
13:36 binaryking ok . thanks
13:36 sri very bad idea
13:36 binaryking :)
13:36 marty https://metacpan.org/module/Mojolic​ious::Plugin::TagHelpers#javascript
13:37 sri "core.js" is relative to the current directory
13:37 memowe That's right.
13:37 sri what marty said
13:37 sri memowe: so it doesn't work if you're in a controller normally
13:38 sri don't specify paths manually, ever
13:38 memowe Yep, that's right. The url should be generated.
13:38 sri or you're tied to your current setup forever
13:38 sri even url_for is better, since it fixes the base path for cgi automatically
13:39 binaryking sri: https://metacpan.org/module/Mojolic​ious::Plugin::TagHelpers#stylesheet is an eg
13:39 binaryking how does it work?
13:39 purl how does it work is, like, http://www.howstuffworks.com
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13:43 GitHub11 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/QzYt3A
13:43 GitHub11 [mojo/master] mention portability of tag generators - Sebastian Riedel
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14:35 Ulti how can I do conditional blocks inside a template? I tried   <%= if ($whatever) { %> <tags>for</true> <%= } else { %> <tags>for</false> <%= } %>
14:36 judofyr Ulti: use <% %> instead of <%= %>
14:36 judofyr <%= is for output
14:37 Ulti thanks
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14:57 * sri wonders if anyone is actually using bonjour support
15:06 Ulti how about stopping <%= print '"' %>  outputting &quot; ?
15:07 inokenty Ulti: <%== ... %>
15:07 inokenty Add one more "="
15:08 * Ulti really needs to read the docs cover to cover
15:11 Ulti btw that's a really great system now I know how it works
15:12 inokenty I can tell more - there is nothing better than Mojolicious (in my opinion)
15:14 Ulti certainly not in Perl that I've come across... Catalyst is perhaps more complete, but its way harder to get going with
15:15 Ulti I'm a PhD student attempting to break away from his supervisors massive back library of CGI.pm *shudder*
15:15 inokenty Catalyst has a lot of dependencies
15:16 inokenty It is good, but it is bad )
15:16 Ulti yeah which makes it unworkable imho, I started this project in Catalyst but then I tried to update and Moose was utterly broken
15:17 Ulti I like that model structure isn't imposed on you in Mojolicious too
15:18 Ulti I have to use vanilla DBI and have a massive library of queries already about the place, having to ORMafy them all would be a big waste of time
15:19 omega to be fair, you don't have to use an orm to use catalyst
15:22 Ulti you dont but the docs are heavily based around walking you through that
15:25 Ulti put it this way the guys in my research group who learnt to program about 2 years ago have made Mojolisious Lite apps but just cry when I tried to get them to understand Catalyst, there isn't a learning curve non MVC web people can get into with Catalyst
15:27 Ulti in my mind mojolicious lite completely replaces the need for CGI.pm, especially as you can break out your one off CGI to be a complete web based app if it ends up going that way without having to re engineer to a new framework
15:29 omega sure, there are upsides with mojo
15:29 omega I'm just saying that the arguments you use should be true :)
15:31 sri catalyst could have had a simple routing dsl too, but i made a bad decision back in 2005
15:34 sri http://hastebin.com/raw/yunidohiwi # from the catalyst4 synopsis
15:35 sri wish i had pursued that direction
15:36 sri was so close to todays micro frameworks :)
15:36 omega I'm glad you didn't
15:37 sri method attributes was not a good choice
15:37 omega that might be, but I love the inheritance thingy
15:38 sri inheritance is not a good way to reuse web app logic
15:39 omega not sure we mean the same inheritance
15:39 sri which do you mean?
15:40 omega the automatic url based on the namespace tree
15:40 omega which to me is a good starting point
15:40 omega makes it easy to map etc
15:40 omega and then I can make it "better" using chains later
15:40 sri ah, that's not exclusive to the method attribute system
15:41 sri that only requires instantiating all controllers at startup
15:41 omega but then again, I really don't like the "one place to route them all"
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15:43 sri you can do both in mojolicious
15:43 sri a more catalyst-ish system is just a plugin away :)
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15:45 sri you could even build a system where every controller looks like a lite app, and compose routes into a centralized router on startup, like catalyst does
15:46 sri in fact, let me demonstrate :D
15:46 sri could be a fun hack of the week
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15:52 omega hehe :)
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16:14 sri hmm, it's even easier than expected :D
16:16 sri omega: https://gist.github.com/2149176 # let me introduce you to Mojolyst
16:16 inokenty =)
16:17 sri routing in both controllers is completely independent, and gets composed on startup
16:17 sri you can look at the composed routing tree with "./myapp.pl routes"
16:23 sri i'm abusing Mojolicious::Lite a bit, but you get the idea
16:26 omega cool
16:26 sri the router is insanely flexible
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16:48 GitHub87 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/KOpuoQ
16:48 GitHub87 [mojo/master] fixed list of hidden attributes and methods to include routes - Sebastian Riedel
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16:54 GitHub33 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/SDIWOw
16:54 GitHub33 [mojo/master] removed routes from list of hidden methods again and added a test - Sebastian Riedel
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16:57 GitHub108 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/PY__6A
16:57 GitHub108 [mojo/master] fixed comment - Sebastian Riedel
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17:15 Ulti hey neat Catalyst got a new shiny website
17:16 Ulti *frontpage
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18:08 tempire I wouldn't say catalyst is more complete.
18:09 tempire binaryking is gone, oh well.  he could have just created a templates directory.
18:10 tempire wow, much nicer.  new cat site  - about time
18:11 tempire hmm, their commercial support link is interesting.
18:24 tempire lulz.  is someone going to put mojolyst into a cpan module?
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18:54 sri i'm just blogging it i think
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19:04 GitHub129 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/e3j4bw
19:04 GitHub129 [mojo/master] added one_tick method to Mojo::Reactor and Mojo::Reactor::EV - Sebastian Riedel
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19:04 tempire it wouldn't make sense for you to cpanify it.  but maybe someone else.
19:05 sri it's just a hack
19:05 sri reusing Mojolicious::Lite is not such a good idea, since most of its features don't work
19:05 sri you'd want a custom DSL specifically for controllers
19:06 sri hmm, i think now that one_tick actually works as advertised again, we might need a big fat warning
19:07 sri otherwise people will abuse it for blocking
19:07 sri and recurse their servers to death
19:23 sri http://blog.kraih.com/mojolic​ious-hack-of-the-day-mojolyst # looks ok?
19:24 tempire looks ok
19:26 sri maybe i should add ::Controller:: to make everything more obvious
19:26 sri MyApp::Controller...MyApp::Controller::Foo
19:27 batman sri: i was hung up in having the ::Controller:: part, but it's really just stupid :P
19:27 batman i think you should skip it...
19:28 tempire yeah, but it's for appealing to catalyst users
19:32 sri and added
19:33 batman :)
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19:51 GitHub11 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/aQXNIg
19:51 GitHub11 [mojo/master] added recursion warning to one_tick methods - Sebastian Riedel
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20:55 tempire lulz.  https://github.com/joho/7XX-rfc
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21:03 GitHub51 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/R86xxg
21:03 GitHub51 [mojo/master] switch from BREAK_ONE to BREAK_ALL - Sebastian Riedel
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22:13 GitHub76 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/jwlYLA
22:13 GitHub76 [mojo/master] added another timer example - Sebastian Riedel
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22:20 GitHub86 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ccFp5Q
22:20 GitHub86 [mojo/master] updated jQuery to version 1.7.2 - Sebastian Riedel
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22:43 * tempire hax0rs
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23:43 sri Oo

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