Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2012-07-27

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05:57 sri hmm
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05:58 sri we use $ENV{MOJO_APP} sometimes for passing around app instances, maybe we should find a better solution
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06:00 sri it has the potential to break in future perl releases
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07:41 nic I have a project to replace a massive crontab with a proper job controller
07:41 nic jobs take anything between 1 sec and 50 minutes (depending on which job)
07:42 nic I'm looking at TheSchwartz and Gearman
07:43 nic It's all localhost, so my gut feeling is mojolicious is a perfect foundation
07:43 nic but so far I can't find anything appropriate that builds on that
07:44 nic I can write my own upper layer, but I'll look forward to ripping the whole lot out if you guys ever do write a nice event bus
07:47 sri that's an idea for a very distant future, years away
07:47 * nic looks at all the dials for the one that speeds up time
07:49 * sri is mostly just trying to guess where the web is moving next
07:50 marcus up up and away!
07:50 marcus https://github.com/diegok/resque-perl ?
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08:14 Coff Heh. I find Evolution offending as well, but for different reasons. http://t.co/pLlyDglP
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08:17 marcus Coff: creationism ftw?
08:17 Coff marcus: apparently :p
08:18 Coff "Nowhere does the Ubuntu site promise that Ubuntu is a Magic Friendly Jesus Happy Fuzzy Bunny operating system."
08:19 marcus is that a bug report?
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08:20 sri lulz, has to be a troll
08:21 Coff Let's hope. If it was a troll he/she deserves cake for the effort and comedic effect
08:21 marcus freebsd has had similar trouble due to their horned mascot.
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08:50 Coff Now I got nostalgic... I miss FreeBSD.
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09:57 stephan48 diegok, marcus: so resque and resque-perl could use the same queues?
09:57 marcus stephan48: yeah, you could even use the resque web admin interface
09:57 stephan48 cool
09:57 stephan48 is there a perl port for the web admin interface?
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10:29 GitHub2 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/22Napw
10:29 GitHub2 [mojo/master] better synopsis examples - Sebastian Riedel
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13:01 diegok stephan48: no, I use the ruby one. That is some kind of ensure about keeping compatible :)
13:01 diegok stephan48: but I would love to use a resque-web made over mojolicious :)
13:02 stephan48 ywe
13:02 stephan48 same here
13:02 stephan48 tbh i dont like ruby ;)
13:03 diegok stephan48: I don't have that problems with ruby... :)
13:04 diegok indeed, I really like ruby :)
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13:05 diegok stephan48: my future plans for resque-perl is to make it possible to have hooks and a better exception/logging handler
13:06 diegok stephan48: I'm not planning to create a new resque-web, but it should be easy as I thing I have all needed methods implemented
13:06 diegok stephan48: I would also like to evaluate moving to Moo from Any::Moose :-)
13:07 diegok stephan48: but I'm using it daily as it is on cpan and works fine for me.
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13:18 marcus AnyMeese
13:25 sri AnyBeer
13:37 stephan48 diegok: tbh i dont like ruby, i am sitting here since 30 mins on a debian squeeze to get a ruby env working to use the ruby resque app...
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13:38 GitHub140 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Aj5Xsg
13:38 GitHub140 [mojo/master] no need to mention HTTP version everywhere - Sebastian Riedel
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13:43 marcus sri: Future proofing for HTTP 2.0!
13:43 marcus :p
13:43 sri :)
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13:51 diegok stephan48: eheh, gem install resque should do it :-/
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13:54 marcus http://iwatchthis.com/marcus?poste​d=56ffff232c4a02ddef29d632c69d7c83
13:55 stephan48 diegok: i mean the demo application
13:56 diegok stephan48: demo?
13:56 diegok stephan48: you mean resque-web?
13:57 stephan48 no
13:59 stephan48 examples/demo on the resque repo
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15:08 joelaberger good morning #mojo!
15:09 * sri waves
15:09 joelaberger I have a thought I wanted to run bye you before I tried it
15:10 joelaberger I have need to be able to force the expiration of a memorized template
15:10 joelaberger since the %memorize variable is lexical to the DefaultHelpers initialization it is inaccessible from the outside
15:10 joelaberger I am thinking about adding a DefaultHelper which would allow you to manipulate the expiration time
15:11 joelaberger perhaps memorize_expires( name => new_expires_time )
15:11 sri just fork it and make a new plugin
15:12 joelaberger make a new helper?
15:12 sri ye
15:12 joelaberger ok
15:12 joelaberger thats what I was working on, but then I remembered Andy's "don'
15:12 joelaberger t just supply a patch out of the blue"
15:12 joelaberger so I thought I would come ask
15:13 sri very much appreciated
15:13 * sri hates patches out of the blue
15:13 joelaberger thanks for writing a cool framework
15:13 sri glad you like it
15:14 diegok marcus: http://nordaaker.com/ 403?
15:15 joelaberger one more question, I assume that the original memorize will have needed to be named.
15:15 joelaberger what should memorize_expires do if the named memorize cannot be found?
15:15 sri afraid i don't follow
15:15 joelaberger 1) could have been typo
15:16 joelaberger 2) memorize might not have happened yet
15:16 joelaberger ok, I will think about it
15:16 joelaberger sorry,
15:16 sri wait, i think you might have misunderstood me
15:17 joelaberger if (not exists $memorize{$name})
15:17 sri when i said "fork it", i meant "take the code and turn it into a new cpan distribution"
15:18 joelaberger the problem with that is that the %memorize hash is inaccessible
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15:18 sri as in Mojolicious::Plugin::MorePowerfulMemorize
15:18 sri make your own version
15:20 joelaberger that would mean reimplementing the whole thing just to change one hash key
15:20 joelaberger while I could do that, can I offer one more alternative?
15:20 sri of course
15:20 joelaberger memorize without any arguments returns a reference to the %memorize hash
15:20 joelaberger then I can manipulate the key I need
15:21 joelaberger without exposing a new api
15:21 sri i'm actually not very keen on turning it into a caching framework
15:21 joelaberger ?
15:21 joelaberger what is memorize then?
15:21 sri an example for a caching helper
15:22 sri extensible helpers would be an entirely new thing for us
15:23 sri so far they are mostly tiny wrappers
15:23 joelaberger true, but other helpers expose hashreferences in this way
15:23 sri which one?
15:23 joelaberger session
15:23 sri not a helper
15:23 joelaberger right you are
15:24 joelaberger I see
15:24 sri same for stash and param
15:24 joelaberger I guess then I understand why you say fork and make my own
15:24 joelaberger still, I would essentially just copy the whole thing
15:25 sri everything in plugins is supposed to be examples for you to fork
15:25 sri "This is a core plugin, that means it is always enabled and its code a good example for learning to build new plugins, you're welcome to fork it."
15:26 sri that's what the defaulthelper docs say :)
15:26 sri you could argue that memorize is too powerful to be a simple helper though
15:26 joelaberger its true, I guess I took that meaning a little more like "These are real plugins and separately they are also good starting points for others"
15:28 sri on the other hand, memorize is a lot more dynamic than other helpers, making an especially good example
15:28 sri hmmmm
15:28 joelaberger I can certainly make my own, but it isn't going to be any more powerful than this, just let me say "I just changed something, this menu needs to be re-memorized now"
15:29 joelaberger up to you
15:29 sri do it, i wouldn't want to make it more powerful in core
15:29 joelaberger ok
15:33 garu tempire, sri: I'm convinced: gonna create a 'dpp' app that pretty prints stuff :)
15:33 sri garu++
15:34 joelaberger garu: make a plugin, to parallel the dumper helper
15:34 sri joelaberger: that doesn't make much sense in this context
15:34 joelaberger nm
15:35 garu I guess those are two different things
15:35 garu not that a plugin would hurt, there's already one for TT
15:35 garu but they were talking about a way to dump anything from STDOUT
15:35 sri we're talking about "mojo get /foo.json | dpp"
15:36 garu yup
15:36 sri purrty json for everyone!
15:36 garu joelaberger: btw, how would you feel about making such a plugin yourself? I could help!
15:36 joelaberger I might be willing
15:36 garu \o/
15:37 joelaberger 'course all the stuff I'm working on is just avoiding writing my thesis
15:37 joelaberger ;-)
15:37 garu hahahahah
15:44 marcus diegok: thanks for the report!
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16:06 GitHub152 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/OJmE5Q
16:06 GitHub152 [mojo/master] optimized some default helpers - Sebastian Riedel
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16:10 marcus diegok: sback, not sure what martin has been doing there.
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16:18 diegok marcus: I like your new site (well, new for me).
16:21 marcus diegok: it's mostly a refresh of the old design, more content-focused.
16:22 marcus we do have a more ambitious plan for a homepage, but it takes a bit more time :)
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16:38 sri hmmmm... i kinda want to break a few events just to see how many people use them :D
16:52 joelaberger sri: fwiw, this was enough for my purposes: https://github.com/jberger/MojoCM​S/blob/master/lib/MojoCMS.pm#L74
16:54 sri joelaberger: why do you need to change expiration times?
16:55 joelaberger I have a main navigation menu, I only want to render it when someone has changed the menu's contents
16:55 joelaberger re-render that is
16:55 sri ah, so you really just want to expire it manually
16:55 joelaberger right
16:55 joelaberger I mostly see using it as set expire to 1
16:56 sri yea, i'd like to see a plugin for that on cpan
16:56 joelaberger well I can package this
16:57 joelaberger or like I originally though, expose one more helper which lets you manipulate the expires value of some key
16:57 joelaberger *thought
16:58 sri or you make the whole thing more general purpose
16:58 sri with real caching backends
16:59 joelaberger that would probably be better, but I'm not your guy on that
16:59 joelaberger I'm just learning this web stuff and db, I'm just limping by
16:59 joelaberger which is why I was just going to patch your helper :-P
16:59 sri :)
17:00 joelaberger anyway, this works for me, I could happily package this or something like if for CPAN if you like, anything more and I wouldn't do a good enough job
17:01 joelaberger mean-time, its lunch here in chicago, I will look back from any comments when I get back
17:01 joelaberger thanks again!
17:04 marcus lunchtime in chicago is serious business.
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18:00 GitHub39 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/l47MVQ
18:00 GitHub39 [mojo/master] more documentation tweaks - Sebastian Riedel
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19:25 sri http://www.reddit.com/r/perl/commen​ts/x7vr6/perl_mvc_shakedown/c5k1l2l # i keep seeing these "full toc" requests, but nobody ever presents an actual solution :S
19:28 sri we have about 100 classes, how would someone make a toc actually useful?
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19:41 tempire site:mojolicio.us thingIwant
19:41 tempire I solved the problem!!
19:42 sri \o/
19:46 sri hmm, haskell has all the best online books
19:46 sri http://book.realworldhaskell.org # even the oreilly book is free online
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19:59 njlg I think this is a pretty good TOC: https://metacpan.org/release/Mojolicious
20:12 tempire I thought about a book
20:15 tempire but as far as I can tell, the measurable return of a book is not high
20:17 njlg especially if there are changes to the API in the future =)
20:18 tempire the user-facing api is stable enough for a book these days
20:18 sri that's just plain wrong
20:18 sri api changes means selling new editions!
20:18 njlg haha. i like it!
20:18 sri with a traditional publisher you're pretty much screwed, but self-published doesn't seem too bad
20:19 sri http://www.paperplanes.de/2012/7/5/six-ish​-months-of-ebook-sales-riak-handbook.html
20:20 sri learn you a haskell also looks pretty independent, and it beats every oreilly title out there
20:21 sri guess the worst you could do is go with a shitty publisher like packt
20:23 sri self-published for money, and oreilly/apress/manning to put something on your resume :)
20:24 njlg pretty good summation of the situation =)
20:24 tempire In my experience, most companies aren't smart enough to know that things like that matter
20:25 tempire maybe I'm just jaded
20:26 tempire does self-published require up-front investment?  I seem to recall that there are services that print the book only on ordering
20:26 Netfeed i hate api-changes, i work only with external api:s more  or less at work and it blows when they keep changing shit every month
20:26 sri the guy above did not print it i believe
20:26 sri the money is in ebooks
20:27 sri 9% for the payment handler, rest is profit or so for ebooks
20:27 tempire it's also a one-language book, whereas riak spans.
20:27 sri riak community is tiny though
20:28 tempire true enough
20:28 tempire wonder what chromatic's returns are
20:28 sri i believe he said that he earned a lot more from modern perl than any oreilly title
20:28 tempire chromatic said he was interested in a mojolicious book a while ago, but I presumed he meant responding to a publisher's interest
20:28 Netfeed har chromatic written more books?
20:29 tempire her chromatic!
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20:29 sri chromatic is a publisher
20:29 sri http://onyxneon.com
20:30 tempire oh rly
20:32 sri anyway, ebook self-publishing is where the money is at
20:32 Netfeed s/har/has
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20:40 tempire ah, the riak book is not freely available
20:42 tempire what should a book cover?  would have to be more than just the basic docs
20:43 tempire also, basho specifically targets riak to the enterprise, so that might affect the returns the riak book had
20:43 joelaberger marcus: "lunchtime in chicago is serious business." => haha, not really, I was meeting for lunch with my Dad and I was as much telling myself to get out the door
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20:46 jfuller Could someone point me to where errors are logged in production mode? I'm not seeing it in the documentation anywhere.
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21:02 tempire jfuller: http://mojolicio.us/perldo​c/Mojolicious/Lite#Logging
21:06 jfuller tempire: So, then in theory it should log to production.log, right?
21:07 jfuller tempire: My instance seems to be logging to development.log even though it is running in production, hence my point of confusion
21:08 tempire are you using morbo?
21:08 jfuller starman
21:09 tempire I guess you have to set the mode explicitly to production
21:10 jfuller I do actually. It seems to respect production mode in every other way as far as I can tell. I wonder if it opens up a pipe to the dev log before I set the mode
21:11 sri how do you set the mode?
21:12 jfuller $self->mode('production') within the startup method
21:12 sri too late
21:13 sri only command line options and MOJO_MODE work
21:14 jfuller Ah. That I did not know. Can I submit a feature request to make $self->mode read only ;-)
21:15 DaTa hmm.. where is Mojo::Command->get_data now?
21:15 sri we have no read only attributes
21:15 jfuller sri: Interesting. I suppose that does save quite a bit of overhead
21:18 tempire DaTa: https://groups.google.com/forum/?from​groups#!searchin/mojolicious/tempire/​mojolicious/D5Lfobnua9Y/D2G_rx76P1cJ
21:19 sri get_data is actually completely gone, there is now Mojo::Loader->data
21:23 DaTa uh, ok, that change will be a bit to big for now, have to dig into this later, i'm staying with 2.x for now, thank you
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21:30 GitHub91 [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/tD9fnA
21:30 GitHub91 [mojo/master] improved mode section in tutorial a little - Sebastian Riedel
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21:32 sri that should make it a little more clear
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21:42 joelaberger sri: just read that message post, I use a Command to setup the database on my app. I was thinking about having a page of the app to do it instead, but now I think I will keep it, just as an example
21:53 DaTa ah, it seems, that i can simply replace Mojo::Command->new->get_data("foo.xml", __PACKAGE__) with Mojo::Loader->data(__PACKAGE__, 'foo.xml'), that's doable :)
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