Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2012-09-13

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06:04 tempire We need more blog posts
06:04 tempire little tidbits are find
06:04 tempire *fine
06:06 sri we do
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06:21 tempire It's amazing how many people still don't know the difference between mojolicious and the other offerings.
06:21 tempire I was just floored when someone said the other day that they didn't want to use mojolicious 'cause it didn't have a rest plugin.
06:21 sri xD
06:22 tempire It's not their fault, as much as they just didn't understand.
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06:30 sri tempire: it kinda is, even says RESTful routes on the frontpage
06:30 tempire they never even went to the website.
06:30 sri Oo
06:30 tempire it was just hearsay from a bunch of people who only know catalyst
06:31 tempire they looked on cpan for a rest plugin.
06:31 tempire and didn't find one.
06:32 tempire whatever...point being, the good word still needs spread
06:32 * tempire stands on the mountain top
06:32 * tempire spreads his arms, and directs the masses forward
06:32 tempire BEHOLD!
06:33 tempire A rainbow like no other has descended upon this land.
06:33 tempire It shall be called mojolicious
06:33 tempire And henceforth, nary a dependency shall be needed to begin the journey
06:33 tempire For there is a new way that ye shall follow.
06:34 tempire Be at REST, oh internet.  For all is built in for you.
06:35 * sri slowly leaves the channel
06:35 tempire The the events emit freely.  There is a hypnotoad directing you in the way you should go.
06:35 tempire *Let
06:36 tempire Go forth, and make many routes and daemon instances.  For the hypnotoad will be with you, hot reloading until the end of time.
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06:51 tempire http://images.tempi.re/behold-20120912-235031.png
06:55 sri \o/
06:57 inokenty =)
06:59 inokenty Can't wait for new mojocast
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07:18 Netfeed well, now we know what the next mojocast should be about, RESTs good word must be spread :)
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07:33 marcus all praise the tempire
07:36 * marcus is holding a mojolicious intro at javazone today.
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07:47 tempire marcus++
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08:04 davido I've been trying to spread the word.  Thousand Oaks Perl Mongers got a presentation on Mojolicious from me in July, then in August another presentation pushing Mojo apps to cloud services.  And in August I gave the same presentation to Los Angeles Perl Mongers.  ...and Monday, I did a Perl/Mojolicious/Cloud Computing presentation for Unix Users Association of Southern California, Orange County chapter.
08:06 tempire davido++
08:07 davido The TO-PM presentation that focused on Mojolicious directly (July) was hands-on -- no slides.  Created a Mojolicious::Lite app that did some trivial thing, then expanded it to a full app.  Then examined a more complex app to see how it ticked.
08:10 sri marcus++
08:10 sri davido++
08:10 davido In PerlMonks someone asked how to embed Perl in web pages like PHP, and I did a very brief Mojolicious::Lite example as a reply.  I think many didn't get the point that it was complete, stand-alone, runnable, as opposed to some HTML::Template solution that still needed a framework to go with it.
08:20 sri haha, looks like spdy is also a target of the CRIME attack
08:20 sri that's nasty
08:20 sri since header compression is part of the protocol
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08:27 tempire I have a confession
08:27 tempire That's not how it happened
08:27 tempire it was more like this:
08:27 tempire http://images.tempi.re/behold-nyan.gif
08:27 sri ALL GLORY TO THE NYAN CAT!
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10:56 ZadYree hmmm
10:57 ZadYree clamps vs claws is a bit like shi fu mi
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11:43 * sri wouldn't mind a review of the patch from yesterday https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/be​22137b028b0b2fd78baab9d3775d2ad00b2eb1
11:43 sri the return unless $self parts are a bit messy
11:45 sri but when a Mojo::Server::Daemon or Mojo::UserAgent instance go out of scope there are some events that can still fire in Mojo::IOLoop::Stream
11:45 sri due to graceful connection cleanup
11:46 sri those using Mojo::IOLoop directly may want to look into that, since it may result in warnings when you upgrade to 3.41
11:46 sri like marcus with his redis client
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11:49 * sri hates Scalar::Util::weaken
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12:06 crab reference counting is hateful
12:06 crab but oh so simple
12:10 sri but hateful
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12:37 marcus and hateful
12:37 marcus my talk was very badly attended. I think javazone communityzone is a sham.
12:38 BinGOs Was your talk "I fucking hate Javazone CommunityZone" ?
12:38 marcus one of the questions from the attendees were 'why aren't you on freenode?'
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12:38 marcus BinGOs: no, that is my talk for next year.
12:38 BinGOs >:)
12:39 marcus maybe it will be better attended.
12:39 marcus I actually think we should be on freenode tho.
12:40 BinGOs "Why aren't you on <insert name of my favourite IRC network because I am too fucking lazy to learn how an IRC client works> ?"
12:41 Netfeed i thought it was kinda strange that the channel wasn't on freenode when i started using mojolicious
12:41 BinGOs pfft.
12:41 * BinGOs &
12:42 Netfeed i don't really care now :)
12:42 sri we were on freenode at first
12:42 bc547 time for a separate restful mojo irc network? :-)
12:42 sri but perl people are mostly on this network
12:43 Netfeed i hate when projects is on other networks usually, like those that are too fancy for freenode and uses oftc instead
12:45 sri marcus: you really would want to move the channel?
12:47 nic I aint packing again
12:47 nic and someone else can take responsibility for telling the milkman
12:48 marcus sri: I think there are upsides and downsides, but I think it would make more sense for us to be there, given our goals.
12:48 marcus I'm already on both networks, so it's not a big deal for me personally.
12:49 * marcus has cookies!
12:49 Netfeed what is your stance in for or against ORM:s in mojo? i've been thinking about this quite a lot and i can't really come to a good stance, it's a nice way to collect functions/methods that should only work on an object, but it also adds an unneccessary complexity
12:49 sri we would basically have two channels for a long long time then
12:50 sri Netfeed: you mean orm as part of the mojolicious distribution?
12:50 Netfeed no, as a supplement for building an "app" or site
12:50 sri ok, then i don't care ;p
12:51 crab ugh. two channels would suck.
12:51 crab it's hard enough to keep up with one
12:52 sri marcus: and no purl!
12:52 purl hmmm... no i am funky or a bit shy bot
12:52 crab oh, that would be blissful. let's move, then.
12:52 marcus guess you just won crab over, sri :)
12:52 sri xD
12:52 marcus can't we just make this one +m and add a bot to tell people to piss off to freenode?
12:53 marcus on join
12:53 crab what's the point of going to freenode?
12:53 sri well... there are more people over there
12:53 marcus crab: fooling people who aren't perl people to use mojolicious.
12:53 sri 600+ in #perl
12:54 marcus you wouldn't connect to irc.perl.org unless you're already a convert.
12:54 Netfeed i'm not a convert, i just like mojo :)
12:54 marcus Netfeed: that's pretty awesome.
12:55 * crab shudders at the thought of 600 people in this channel
12:55 marcus don't worry, 90% are idle
12:55 marcus even now
12:56 Netfeed i think that perl is pretty handy, but there's loads of stuff i don't like with it, but it maps better for my way of thinking about programming then say python or ruby, i wish i was good at lisp instead :(
12:58 * sri simply likes C-ish languages
12:59 Netfeed perl would be better, imho, if the sigils was "permanent" @var[1] instead of $var[1], and if hashes and arrays behaved as arrayrefs and hashref instead
13:00 sri indeed, perl6 works that way
13:01 Netfeed yeah, that's kinda nice, sadly it's kinda far away
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13:01 crab do people routinely include ?timestamp in their static asset paths?
13:01 crab (for cache invalidation)
13:01 sri certainly
13:02 crab so is there some nice mojo helper for generating links that way?
13:02 Netfeed oh, i want to know that too :)
13:03 sri crab: search channel history for asset pipeline plugin ;p
13:04 sri i had plans for that
13:04 sri a few people were working on that stuff
13:04 sri diegok and tempire were two of them i believe
13:08 crab and they have FAILED
13:19 crab bad crab. stop worrying about the cost of stat(2)ing a few files on every request. bad.
13:19 sri stat is ridiculously cheap
13:19 sri since it's usually cached
13:20 sri we do a stat to check for static files on every request
13:20 crab s/few files/few extra files/
13:22 sri asset pipeline plugins are nice for that
13:23 sri assets are preprocessed on startup and cached away somewhere the developer is not supposed to touch them again
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13:25 Netfeed would be handy for coffeescript, generate the js file on startup and then never touch the file again
13:26 sri that's how it works
13:26 sri also merge, minify and compress css files
13:26 sri inline images
13:27 Netfeed oh and less/sass, oh my, now i wish that those plugins exists
13:27 sri good asset pipeline plugin would have hooks for other preprocessing stuff, like less/sass
13:28 sri but just read the channel history, we basically had the whole thing designed already :)
13:28 Netfeed yeah, i've seen that, did you loose it? :)
13:29 * sri points at diegok and tempire
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13:33 sri getting it right would prolly be a month of fulltime work
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13:53 GabrielVieira There is any plugin to minify html output?
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14:28 * diegok reading after being pointed...
14:32 diegok crab: I still want to do it.. I have something kinda half way (quarter way)... but it depends on deploy script running bbb to compile, concatenate and minify. Mi plugin just know where the compiled files are left and which source it includes. At startup time it chcksume and uses that after ? on each file. This only happen in production mode.
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14:34 diegok crab: I really want to experiment a bit more... I think it can be nice to have it all in mojoland but still being able to use external tools (like uglifyjs)
14:52 sri yea, external tools are a must
14:52 sri you need some nice plugin hooks to allow filtering with all kinds of tools
14:52 sri every other week there's a better minifier :)
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14:52 Adura Just gzip it.
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14:54 sri no
14:54 sri http://stackoverflow.com/quest​ions/807119/gzip-versus-minify
14:55 sri merging multiple js and css files is also an important task for an asset pipeline plugin
14:55 sri just like inlining base64 encoded image files into css files
14:55 Adura One file for a single css class, heh.
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14:57 crab what?
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15:42 * sri has just been chasing after a horse for 30 minutes that thought the grass was greener on the other side of the fence... fml
15:42 crab a real horse?
15:42 sri yea
15:42 crab or is this some strange euphemism?
15:42 crab sri: wow, i didn't know you had a horse.
15:44 sri just watching the two horses of my sister for a few weeks
15:44 * sri grew up on a horse ranch
15:49 sri could use one of these :) http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs26/f/2008/123/​c/d/SP_Portal_Sentry_Turret_by_mindsend.jpg
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16:55 marcus http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/09/url-equivalence # i like the plan.
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17:20 sri marcus: which part of it?
17:20 purl which part of it is he unpleased with the most?
17:20 sri botsnack!
17:20 purl :)
17:21 marcus sri: making everything URL
17:21 sri i actually dislike these ones "http://example.com/~smith/   http://example.com/%7Esmith/ false"
17:22 sri ah
17:22 marcus sri: yeah, I think he dislikes that too.
17:22 marcus if I'm reading this right
17:22 marcus sri: he's just saying that's how it works now.
17:23 nic zpmorgan: I've had v little time for the fun stuff today, so didn't do any more debugging, but I cleaned up my test env and ran the new test
17:23 sri reminds me of the recent list thread about query parameters
17:23 nic result at http://hastebin.com/fumopanuko.vbs
17:23 nic is that good or bad?
17:23 sri http://groups.google.com/group/mojolicio​us/browse_thread/thread/a7914cee08369a39
17:24 nic if it isn't what you were expecting then I can say more about what I've changed
17:24 zpmorgan nic, That was my result. I think it means that child processes are getting signals from other children
17:24 nic one of my favourite aspects of hastebin is their efforts to make the urls sound like Japanese wrestlers
17:25 nic i see.  oh well, more fun tomorrow hopefully
17:25 zpmorgan hah, I noticed that.
17:25 marcus sri: yeah, we can't break it like that, but he has a point.
17:25 marcus sri: wonder if there's some other way we can support doing that.
17:25 sri child processes getting signals from other children smells like windows :)
17:25 sri marcus: knock yourself out
17:26 nic my shiny new linux box is a Windows emulator?
17:26 zpmorgan sri, no windows here :\
17:26 * marcus knocks himself out
17:26 * marcus & # knocked out
17:27 sri the alternative is to do it like URI and keep it as a string all the time, and then reparse for every ->param request or modification
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17:30 sri whatever you do, you're not allowed to make it slower
17:30 sri Mojo::Parameters actually has a massive effect on overall performance
17:30 sri my recent micro optimization made a difference of 100 rps
17:34 sri zpmorgan: is this still necessary? https://github.com/zpmorgan/mojox-ru​n/blob/master/lib/MojoX/HandleRun.pm
17:34 sri Mojo::IOLoop::Stream is not guaranteed to be neutral, but i think atm it is
17:36 sri yea, seems useless after checking MojoX::Run code
17:36 zpmorgan sri, it does look pretty useless. I don't know why it mentions sockets.
17:37 sri an older version of Mojo::IOLoop had more socket specific code i believe
17:38 sri back when there were no streams
17:39 sri Mojo::IOLoop was a total mess in 1.0 :) https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/9b256ec60b9d​15183419603e37463b76b097c121/lib/Mojo/IOLoop.pm
17:43 sri now the code is all minimalistic and pretty... but we are still fighting with Scalar::Util::weaken -.-
17:43 zpmorgan sri, removed handlerun; works :)
17:43 sri \o/
17:45 sri anyone feel like uploading a release? i'd like to see the new exception handling on cpantesters!
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18:17 * tempire uploads
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18:22 tempire I was working on the asset pipeline for a large project
18:22 tempire but that project got put on hold
18:22 tempire so I'll continue with it when it starts back up
18:22 sri :/
18:24 tempire lulz.
18:24 tempire for those who complain about the new iphone -> http://slashdot.org/story/01/10​/23/1816257/apple-releases-ipod
18:24 tempire turns out they never had any magic.
18:25 sri :D
18:28 xaka i like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdIWKytq_q4 (people think iphone 4s is a new iphone 5)
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18:37 marcus I think you can find americans on the street that will say the dumbest shit.
18:52 tempire I don't think it's just Americans.  There's just more of us.
18:53 mattastrophe 5% of the world population...Americans do seem to over-represent. ;)
18:54 tempire In comparison to specific countries.  Except for peoples republic of China I guess.
18:54 mattastrophe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE
18:54 tempire Americans seem to be more confident about their ignorance, though.
18:55 mattastrophe "Name a country that starts with U."
18:55 mattastrophe "Yugoslavia?"
18:55 mattastrophe tempire: definitely on the confidence.
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18:56 tempire those videos don't know all the right answers, though.
18:56 tempire *show
18:58 tempire I've wondered if the confidence is partially genetic.  Pioneers that were willing to take huge risks left europe and started breeding.
18:59 mattastrophe Well, the way i put it:
18:59 tempire and then they all left the east coast and went to california.
18:59 mattastrophe USA got the kooks
18:59 mattastrophe Australia got the criminals
18:59 mattastrophe and Canada got the polite kooks
18:59 mattastrophe the criminals are looking the most sane these days
19:00 * tempire doesn't know anything about Australian history
19:00 mattastrophe It started as a penal colony
19:00 mattastrophe I had a friend fly down there a few years ago and the customs agent asked him if he had a criminal record.
19:00 mattastrophe his response: Do I still need one?
19:01 mattastrophe they still let him in
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19:19 sri lol
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19:41 marcus tempire: of course they don't, there are lots of smart americans. Just saying it's quite easy to find the ones who say dumb shit too.
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19:42 s0va hello :)
19:42 s0va sri: found very annoying bug in morbo.
19:42 tempire I remember trying to get an answer to a question from a Swede on the street.
19:42 tempire It was like I was a pariah.
19:42 * marcus is watching homeland, trying to get up to date before the new season starts.
19:42 s0va If EV is available mojo::reactor picks it up.
19:43 s0va ... Morbo overrides SIGCHLD handler
19:43 s0va ... which effectively fucks up run_cmd from AnyEvent::Util ...
19:43 marcus tempire: weird, scandinavia is quite anglophile.
19:44 tempire Maybe I was just asking all the people who happened not to know english.
19:44 tempire Or it was the long hair
19:44 marcus tempire: might be, scandinavians are also a bit more shy than americans.
19:44 s0va i think that the same applies to hypnotoad
19:44 tempire I eventually figured out that turkey was not a common lunchmeat, and that I just needed to accept it and eat horse
19:44 marcus tempire: :o Horse is not common lunchmeat here, turkey is.
19:45 tempire difference between norway & sweden, I guess.
19:45 marcus you can buy turkey for your sandwhich in any grocery story.
19:45 marcus store even
19:45 marcus I know they eat quite a bit of horse in Iceland.
19:45 s0va i wrote a small patch which checks loop implementation and if EV is used uses EV::child
19:47 sri s0va: leaking EV code into the hypnotoad and morbo code?
19:47 sri chances for getting that applied are pretty much zero
19:48 sri the whole signal situation is pretty messy, i'm interested in a clean solution
19:48 sri something that solves everything
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19:51 sri we actually plan to remove EV at some point in the future for something better
19:53 sri the cleanest solution would prolly be to have signal watchers in Mojo::Reactor::*, but that's a rather big change
19:56 sri biggest problem there is that the hypnotoad manager process doesn't run an event loop, limiting future Mojo::Reactor::* extensions
19:56 s0va sri: we've talked about that like one year ago ... that ioloop should get on_sig method
19:57 s0va and that chld is special...
19:57 sri i've talked about that quite a few times with multiple people over the last few years :)
19:57 s0va damn it.
19:57 purl Janet!
19:58 s0va well... so best advice for me would be to patch my contrib/mojolicious webapp distribution...
19:59 sri or provide a sane patch
19:59 sri which i'm afraid would be quite a bit of work
19:59 s0va and tests :)
19:59 sri of course
20:00 s0va heh... i bet you wouldn't be satisfied with my tests => well i'm really not into test writing.
20:00 s0va well :) FYI
20:01 sri unlikely, but as long as they get the job done i don't mind cleaning them up for merging
20:01 sri and reactor tests are really easy anyway
20:03 sri biggest problem is really that you would have to redesign the morbo and hypnotoad mainloops
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20:04 sri which in turn adds the forking problem... many event loops don't like getting forked
20:04 sri kqueue...fork...BOOM!
20:06 sri tbh. the whole thing is so complicated, i don't mind telling people to just not fork in their mojolicious applications for the time being
20:07 sri most really want a job queue anyway
20:08 Adura Go fork the competition.
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20:45 azawawi hi
20:46 azawawi does Mojo::UserAgent support NTLM authentication?
20:46 azawawi something like https://metacpan.org/module/LWP::Authen::Ntlm
20:48 azawawi that uses https://metacpan.org/module/Authen::NTLM
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