Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2012-11-29

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05:32 hesperaux I'm new to mojo. I want to create a simple webapp that adds and processes forms on the page with AJAX using a mysql backend. Where can I read about how to do this?
05:33 buu Have you tried: http://mojolicio.us/
05:33 buu Oh it's you!
05:33 buu Hello person
05:33 buu Specifically http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Lite walks you through basically everything required.
05:36 hesperaux Can I ask stupid questions here when I get to them? Some of the underlying concepts are new to me.
05:36 hesperaux also, i've done a few months worth of procedural perl programming, but almost no object-oriented perl.
05:37 bpmedley hesperaux: I've asked stupid questions here.
05:37 buu Sure!
05:37 buu Fortunately mojo-lite requires no objects!
05:38 hesperaux isn't $self an object?
05:38 buu oh
05:38 buu Sorry, I was lying to you in a blatant attempt at deception
05:38 buu It sounded good though
05:38 hesperaux =S
05:39 buu Aside from self!
05:39 buu Besides, objects are simple.
05:39 hesperaux ok
05:39 buu They're just like doing method($object, 'argument)
05:40 sri o/
05:40 buu |
05:40 buu \
05:40 hesperaux I know I haven't even come close to this yet, but how are database connections handled with mojo?
05:40 buu hesperaux: In short, they aren't. Mojo doesn't do anything special to control them.
05:40 buu So you can do it however you like!
05:41 hesperaux So every time I connect to a database, that connection is created and discarded numerous times?
05:41 hesperaux say I have a route that connects and does a query
05:41 bpmedley hesperaux: Are you familiar with DBI?
05:41 hesperaux bpmedley, i've (attempted) to use it with mod_perl
05:41 hesperaux since I'm having trouble with mod_perl, i'm going away from it hoping it fixes the problem. I'm not sure if DBI was a part of that issue.
05:42 bpmedley hesperaux: That's what people are here for; we can help.
05:42 hesperaux But I suppose I can use Apache::DBI with mojo? Just import the module and have the mojo vhost startup.pl pre-connect?
05:42 bpmedley hesperaux: Try just straight DBI first.
05:43 hesperaux and not worry about having tons of connections for now, you're saying?
05:43 bpmedley hesperaux: Right.
05:43 hesperaux very well
05:43 buu Optimization is definitely a later case here
05:43 buu That way when you break something you're trying to speedup you know exactly what you did!
05:43 hesperaux alright
05:44 crab there's an easy way to avoid creating gazillions of connections to your database though.
05:44 hesperaux crab, how's that?
05:45 crab http://toroid.org/ams/etc/mojolicious-db-handles (or search for mojolicious::plugin::db or so)
05:45 hesperaux btw, when I host a mojo app, does the app remain loaded on the host? or are mojo components called explicitly at the time of the request? I'm not sure i'm asking this the way i want to.
05:45 buu crab: Is that on cpan?
05:46 buu hesperaux: That depends entirely on what is running mojo
05:46 buu hesperaux: If you are running it via CGI, then it gets reloaded each time
05:46 buu Other methods not so much
05:46 hesperaux okay. I think I want to avoid using CGI then, right?
05:46 buu Sure
05:46 buu Again though, avoid premature optimization etc.
05:46 hesperaux hehe, alright
05:47 buu I use morbo to run it
05:47 buu Which is a built in webserver
05:47 hesperaux would you say that morbo is production safe for business?
05:47 hesperaux internal network use only, mind you
05:47 buu Um. All I can say is it's worked very well for me
05:48 buu sri: ping!
05:48 hesperaux ok
05:48 sri buu: pong
05:48 buu sri: Teach us about the ways of morbo
05:48 hesperaux it's mainly important that it doesn't crash, I suppose. Stability, etc.
05:49 sri a server that restarts automatically when you touch a file, does that sound good for production?
05:49 hesperaux ;D
05:50 * hesperaux approves of this
05:50 hesperaux xD
05:50 sri morbo = development, hypnotoad = production
05:51 hesperaux is hypnotoad part of this package?
05:51 hesperaux or should I just use apache for this
05:51 sri and plain daemon if you need something in between
05:51 sri it is
05:51 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojol​icious/Guides/Cookbook#DEPLOYMENT
05:55 crab i use hypnotoad behind nginx in production. it makes me happy.
05:56 hesperaux hmm
05:56 hesperaux i don't suppose they'd care if I introduced a new server paradigm to the environment, but they tend to use apache for anything web
05:58 hesperaux I think I'll be back frequently to bug you guys. ;)
05:58 hesperaux too bad I can't use IRC at work
05:59 bpmedley hesperaux: You can use Mojolicious::Lite with apache easily enough.
06:00 hesperaux I see that it supports CGI right away; what about mod_perl?
06:00 hesperaux Although I'm thinking of dropping that completely - mod_perl segfaults after several web requests for no apparent reason. That's why I'm here, in fact. I have been trying to figure it out for days but I can't find the cause.
06:01 hesperaux I have a deep-rooted fear that it was not compiled correctly and that makes cry because AIX is a pita
06:01 hesperaux makes me cry*
06:01 buu That does seem unlikely
06:01 buu Unless you're doing something very strange to it
06:01 buu I'm not sure I've ever had modperl segfault on me
06:01 hesperaux yeah...
06:02 * sri remembers mod_perl2 segfaulting the last time he used it... back in 2006 or so
06:02 hesperaux it does it completely at random with no evidence of failure. It always generates my page perfectly the first time. Subsequent requests (a random amount of them) will generate pages with only the header and footer. Finally, internal error will occur, the log prints segfaults, and apache restarts the children that died. Then I get a good request again.
06:03 hesperaux I'm using Apache::DBI and CGI::Ajax with it also, although I've removed all ajax portions and ruled that out. It might be a DBI thing but I don't think so.
06:11 hesperaux Well guys you've given me some stuff to talk about at the meeting tomorrow. Thanks for the help. i'm out for the night. See you later!
06:17 crab mod_perl 2 used to segfault all the time
06:17 crab but really, AIX?
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06:17 crab (should you be looking for a new job rather than a new web framework? ;-)
06:17 hesperaux crab, that's funny you say that. the people in #perl on freenode said that too xD
06:18 hesperaux this is a temporary gig. I'm an intern and I'm not even a programmer by trade. I'm in school for electrical and biomedical engineering, but I've got an IT background so here I am.
06:18 crab seriously though, using mojo behind apache is fine. just use mod_proxy and ignore cgi, fcgi, etc.
06:19 hesperaux crab, if I do that, I would run a standalone mojo server like hypnotoad, and then apache would proxy to it?
06:19 crab then you have n hypnotoad processes, each with one connection to the db, and each handling multiple requests coming from apache via http.
06:19 hesperaux I've never used mod_proxy before
06:19 crab yes, exactly.
06:20 hesperaux is there a benefit to putting this behind apache? All of it will be on a local network only, so I could just run hypnotoad and let it be, right?
06:21 buu Yes?
06:22 buu As far as I know
06:22 buu Apache has a few advantages in this system but I can't see it coming up
06:22 hesperaux Might as well do that then
06:22 buu I think they were talking about if you were somehow forced to use apache
06:22 buu Or wanted to make it easier to integrate or something
06:22 hesperaux Right. It's good to know it's there.
06:22 buu I don't think hypnotoad supports vhosts?
06:23 hesperaux can I run multiple hypnotoad parents for different sites? They already do that for apache..... they don't use vhosts!
06:23 buu Well ok then
06:23 hesperaux in fact, I'm the one that updated them to apache2 from apache1 =\
06:23 buu wow
06:23 buu Which version of perl?
06:24 hesperaux what version is it at now?
06:24 hesperaux i think they've got 5.10.1 as well as other versions for the sake of old crap that requires it
06:25 hesperaux they might be using 5.12.x but i don't recall off hand
06:26 hesperaux I gotta get to bed though. All of you have a good night!
06:26 sri buu: hypnotoad is what you build with it, if you want a vhost system you build a vhost system :)
06:26 * hesperaux sleeps
06:27 sri btw. http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Moj​olicious/Plugin/HeaderCondition
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06:47 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ hi guys, any OPs around?
06:48 xaka Mike-PerlRecruiter_: they are, but usually asleep or hard-working so just fire your question
06:48 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ just wanted to know what the acceptable etiquete is for asking in the channel if anyone needs a job :)
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06:53 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ I only ask, because I have a OO Perl dev job, pays $100K/year starting
06:57 xaka what are you working on?
06:57 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ relocation costs are covered
06:58 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ so say if you need to break a lease to an apt, the company will pay for it if you get hired
06:58 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ http://philadelphia.craigsl​ist.org/sof/3442367869.html
06:59 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ xaka, that job description is the only project I'm working on at the moment
07:01 crab "everything you touch goes into production" sounds like king midas's curse
07:04 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ crab, that's what they told me to put in the ad
07:05 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ there's a dev test environment
07:05 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ I think the guy who wrote the job description was a little gung ho
07:05 omega does that mean someone else would wipe my behind? :P
07:06 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ omega, only if you dont update a CPAN module on a produciton system during business hours :)
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07:44 sri hmm, i think the consensus on job ads was that it's ok if you actually work for the company
07:47 sri Mike-PerlRecruiter_: considering that the ad you linked to doesn't even contain the word mojo it is safe to say that it is not ok
07:48 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ I ask in here because one of the developers told me he'd like to work with the Mojo framework
07:48 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ they have a in house framwork that they've developed
07:49 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ and the lead developer is not taking his suggestion of adding/trasitioning to mojo seriously
07:49 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ guess, he wants job security, I dunno
07:50 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ so I'm asking in here as a request to that other Perl developer, the job description was approved by someone in HR, outside both of our control
07:50 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ ;^)
07:50 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ they just landed a huge contract with Wells Fargo
07:51 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ (I think he said multimillion, not sure)
07:51 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ so they need to expand thier current enterprise app to accomodate wells fargo
07:51 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ hence the hiring
07:52 sri i see, then i don't believe this is the right place for the ad
07:52 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ sri, that sounds fair
07:52 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ what channel do you recommend :^)
07:52 sri from now on the rules here are 1) it has to be a mojo job and b) you have to work for the company
07:53 Mike-PerlRecruiter_ 10-4
07:54 sri not sure there is an appropriate channel
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09:19 michaelfung quick question: which method can disconnect a websocket client? I tried "tx->server_close", but that does not work.
09:20 michaelfung I mean at the server side.
09:31 michaelfung Now tried $c->finish but still no avail.
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09:39 crab ->tx->connection->close
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10:12 judofyr MOJO!
10:23 sri \o\
10:23 sri /o/
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10:51 * sri wonders if mojolicious still works with perl 5.17.6
10:53 judofyr sri: what are the changes in 5.17 btw? where's the changelog?
10:54 sri https://metacpan.org/module/RJB​S/perl-5.17.6/pod/perldelta.pod
10:54 judofyr thanks
10:55 judofyr sri: doesn't look like many big changes, or?
10:56 sri that's only from .6, there is more in earlier versions
10:56 judofyr ah
10:56 judofyr right
10:56 sri hash randomization is kinda big for tests though
10:56 judofyr yeah
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10:56 sri like half of cpan is broken with it atm :)
10:56 judofyr haha
10:56 judofyr nice
10:58 * sri wonders what will happen with refinements in ruby
10:58 sri the jruby guy made some pretty good arguments
10:58 judofyr sri: this is the current status: http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-​bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-core/50295
10:59 judofyr sri: but the follow-up shows that nobody really knows refinements: http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-​bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-core/50299
11:00 sri ah, matz++
11:02 * sri just noticed that basically all the fun books he bought recently are python :o
11:04 judofyr sri: btw, I'm still working on my Mojo-port in Ruby
11:04 sri what's your foundation eventmachine?
11:04 sri *+,
11:04 judofyr I have a pure IOLoop and an EM-backed IOLoop
11:04 judofyr it's abstracted away
11:05 sri ah, neat
11:05 judofyr so it works both with and without EM
11:05 judofyr and in the future: maybe with libuv
11:05 judofyr aiming for "no dependencies" :)
11:05 * sri has a feeling everything will be libuv based in the future
11:05 judofyr and http_parser
11:05 judofyr they're both pretty good though
11:06 sri i don't care at all for node.js, but libuv is great
11:06 * judofyr agrees
11:06 judofyr also, I'm trying out promises in this framework
11:06 judofyr with nice support for fibers too
11:07 judofyr if you want to untangle callbacks
11:07 judofyr e.g: this will work if you enable fibers: tx = ua.get("…").wait!
11:07 sri reminds me that i wanted to check out that new yield thing in ES6 that is supposed to save javascript from callback hell or so
11:08 judofyr they behave like Python's generators?
11:08 judofyr not that I know how Python's generators really works
11:09 sri dunno yet
11:09 sri btw. mojolicious works flawless with perl 5.17.6 \o/
11:09 judofyr sri: also, I've found it useful to use the router-stash to specify options. e.g. r.set(:fiber => true) enables fibers in the action.
11:10 judofyr .set(:stream_body => true) will invoke the action without waiting for the body to be closed
11:10 judofyr easy to enable both for the whole application and per-action
11:10 sri not a bad idea
11:26 tempire hesperaux: you can use moi.tempi.re for #mojo chat through the browser
11:26 tempire there's no member list, but it works fine
11:33 augensalat What a nice day to discuss another encoding issue in Mojo(licious)!
11:34 augensalat RFC 6266 says, the filename parameter in a Content-Disposition paramater is ISO-8859-1. Mojolicious handles it as UTF-8 encoded.
11:35 augensalat The whole standard is a big mess. Just grep for ISO-8859-1 in that RFC.
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11:37 augensalat RFC 6266 and 5987 describe a way for other header-parameter encodings.
11:38 augensalat I'm just asking, if the maintainers would consider accepting a patch...
11:44 augensalat Addendum: I'm struggling with file uploads ATM, but the same problem applies to file downloads as well.
11:47 * judofyr doesn't know enough append encodings in Perl and/or Mojo :/
11:47 judofyr sri is probably your man
11:50 * sri doesn't care
11:52 sri no way i get dragged into another of "those discussions"
11:52 judofyr huh?
11:57 augensalat sri doesn't care about bugs in M?
11:59 nic "it is not part of the HTTP/1.1 Standard"
12:01 nic My ::Lite app script is within a subdir of the dir I want considered $home
12:01 nic and will always be like that
12:02 crab and so will your expectations?
12:02 nic Is there a way the script can set home to be 'the parent dir of where I am'?
12:03 nic I can use MOJO_HOME to set an abs path, but it would be much less hassle to put it once in the code
12:03 judofyr nic: app->home->parse("…")
12:03 nic ah, I'll try that
12:08 nic app->home->parse('.') does what I want as long as I always execute from $home
12:11 sri app->home->parse(app->home->rel_dir('..')) maybe
12:13 nic yes, perfect, thank you
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12:57 augensalat Hmm, besides the problem described above Mojo::Useragent::post_form() still url_escapes the parameters in the Content-Disposition header of a multipart-body.
12:57 augensalat The same bug existed in Mojo::Message before it was fixed in #eeed95f003c486cc3c12c1366b45d55de2dfda2a
13:00 augensalat So I actually cannot write a test for uploading files with non-ASCII characters, because post_form_ok is doing it wrong (give it an "ö" and getting an %F6).
13:06 augensalat crab, marcus, tempire: since sri doesn't care, perhaps one of you do.
13:07 judofyr augensalat: can't you just do utf8::encode($field)?
13:07 marcus augensalat: I want solutions. not problems. ;-)
13:07 judofyr how should post_form know what encoding to use?
13:07 marcus augensalat: where's your pull request for discussion?
13:08 crab judofyr: well, url-escaping surely isn't going to help anyone
13:08 augensalat judofyr: UserAgent url_escape()s the filename, but Mojo::Message does not url_unescape()s anymore (which is correct).
13:09 judofyr augensalat: and?
13:09 augensalat judofyr: ö becomes %F6
13:10 judofyr augensalat: yes? how should post_form know that you want to use UTF-8 encoding?
13:11 augensalat json_is() fails, because the value is not "ö", but "%F6" - which is not the same. So the test fails.
13:12 augensalat marcus: I asked if a patch would be acceptable. I don't want to spend my time on fixing bugs, that are just denied as "bullshit".
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13:13 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/HinuJg
13:13 good_news_everyone mojo/master 950424f Sebastian Riedel: fixed bug where Mojo::UserAgent::Transactor would escape Content-Disposition values
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13:13 marcus seems it's fixed ?
13:14 crab well, i can't reproduce it, i guess the bug report was bullshit after all.
13:14 * crab hides
13:16 judofyr well, there's really no standard for how to encode non-ASCII characters, so any behaviour seems sensible to me
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13:16 augensalat sri: thx
13:17 judofyr augensalat: and you're not very good at explaining what behaviour you want. you kept saying "Mojo does this", but I didn't understand whether you wanted it to be %C3%B6 or the literal value
13:18 crab actually i think the _only_ sensible thing to do in practice is restrict Content-disposition filenames to ascii
13:18 crab at least in email the handling of that field is so horrendously variable and broken that you can't rely on anything else
13:18 judofyr crab: server-side: yes. but for client-side I think it would be nice to be able to send whatever you want.
13:18 judofyr sometimes you're dealing with specific servers
13:19 sri there are standards, they are just meaningless since nobody follows them
13:19 crab judofyr: right, and now that it doesn't url_escape what you say, you can do whatever you want. so everyone should be happy.
13:19 judofyr sri: I meant "standards" as in "standards that people follow", not "web standards" :)
13:19 sri crab: i think emulating what browsers do is the only solution
13:20 augensalat crab: There is filename*=UTF-8''h%c3%a4h.txt for that
13:20 judofyr sri: what does browser do when you upload a file with non-ASCII stuff?
13:20 sri that's why i've been collecting examples for our tests
13:20 crab augensalat: good luck with that
13:20 judofyr s/stuff/filename/
13:20 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/bl​ob/master/t/mojo/request.t#L1686
13:21 sri fun!
13:21 sri as far as i know they depend on context
13:22 sri if the form was utf-8 they encode with utf-8
13:22 augensalat that's not covered by the RFC
13:22 sri but i'm sure there are many many exceptions and special cases
13:23 judofyr augensalat: well, we can either follow the RFCs or create code that works with real servers/clients
13:23 judofyr s/follow/follow all/
13:23 augensalat argueing with browser bugs kept IE alive for so long
13:24 augensalat s/so/too/
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13:24 judofyr did any server-side framework actually help killing IE?
13:24 judofyr I thought it was Firefox and Chrome
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13:25 augensalat any code, that was optimized/adapted for IE helped it to be widely accepted
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13:28 judofyr code that wasn't adapted for IE died because management wouldn't support it :)
13:28 augensalat IE is just a popular example. After all M$ is not so bad anymore. Think they learned their lesson.
13:32 sri more fun with standards http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/11/idna-hell
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13:33 sri we might accidentally be IDNA2008 because i was too lazy to implement most special cases
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15:17 suy Hi. Is possible that this line (from the Guides/Rendering docs), has the "=" by accident?     % Perl code line, treated as "<% line =%>"
15:21 sri nope
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15:42 suy Then I don't get it, because in the lines above is   <% foo %>    or   <%= foo %>    but not    <% foo =%>    isn't it?
15:51 sri read further
15:51 suy Mmm, ok, is about the whitespace, I suppose.
15:51 sri winner!
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15:57 suy The code examples are very good, but the explanations in between could be a less terse. :-) As a total newbie I would feel less lost.
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23:03 yakubori hello
23:04 buu HELLO
23:04 buu WELCOME TO A CHAT CHANNEL
23:04 buu THIS IS THE HOME OF MOJOLICIOUS THE REAL TIME WEB FRAMEWORK WRITTEN IN COBOL
23:07 yakubori :/
23:09 yakubori "I find your choice of case disturbing…"
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23:10 buu I HAVE UPPERCASED ONCE, PRAY I DO NOT INCREASE THE FONTSIZE.
23:10 yakubori :)
23:10 buu Clearly what IRC needs isn't controlcode for color but for fontsize
23:11 buu And font family
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23:51 freman I'd like a control code for family, I'd make them all go away
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